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Post by mrholmes on Nov 7, 2015 6:58:04 GMT -6
Funny Story. Guitar Student (16) asked me if I can help to get some true rock guitar sounds in Logic. He showed me his plastic amp simulations and complained about that it does not sounds like the stuff he knows. I switched on my amp pulled out the tube screamer used a Beyer DM110 and he played. His mouth stood open for a long time. In the end he asked why he payed so much money for the amp sims. I told him about the Kemper, or using a small watt amp with dummy load late at night an reamping the next day. Brave new world of plastic amps....  |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 7, 2015 8:30:01 GMT -6
I feel that, but... I've occasionally used Logic's Fender sims to good effect, so sometimes it's in the hands, not the plug.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 7, 2015 9:25:34 GMT -6
I suppose tangentially related to the number of times a punk band with a bunch of 100W Marshalls couldn't find a sound they were happy with, switch them over to a dimed Champ and instantly there.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 7, 2015 10:14:04 GMT -6
I have no idea why but when it comes to distortion Amp-Sim-Plug ins fail.
On the other hand they can emulate 1176s good enough to be in doubt in a blind test.
What works very good is using CAB IRs as long I do not want to break it up.
To my surprise I often choose the late night IR-CAB version over the next day re-amped one.
Bought today the redwire Roland-JC 120 ones.
They sound fantastic using the Archtop.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 7, 2015 10:35:56 GMT -6
Tons of great albums recorded with little amps. Clapton, Page, zeppelin, all used little fenders.
I think some tool albums too. Ahh and i think through api preamps. Early stuff though was all neve and big amps and u67 and 421's summed into a single track. But ahh sorry no reamping. Massy isnt a fan of reamping if i recall.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 7, 2015 10:44:06 GMT -6
I have yet to use a sim i kept with a band. They're fun though. And good for getting ideas down late at night. Oh and tons of albums were also re-amped.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,082 
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Post by ericn on Nov 7, 2015 12:13:07 GMT -6
When I was in my teens a buddy bought a little Fender Super Champ after years of me telling him his chasing the big expensive Marshall stack were a pipe dream that really wouldn't give him the tone he wanted, added some old Jensen 8 inches in a custom cabinet I built atube screamer and sonic bliss!
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Post by EmRR on Nov 7, 2015 12:46:30 GMT -6
Anyone remember the crazy giant Champ 'booster' amp that Eric Barbour and Peter Belov built in the late '90's? IIRC it used a Champ output transformer backwards as an input transformer, driving a pair of transmitter tubes to achieve something well over 100W, It sounds crazy but I want to think it was a 1kW amp. If you couple output transformer directly to same as input transformer with the speaker still hooked up between them, you get all the variable reactive effects of the speaker in the result. It was built into a hand truck, easily the size of a steamer trunk, and I think it got dismantled and parts recycled some years later. I salute the crazy....
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Post by rocinante on Nov 7, 2015 12:57:01 GMT -6
I cant tell you how many times that during a live show when the band shows up with double stack Marshalls and an complex areay of pedals I know their not gonna need much mixing in the house system. Im also afraid to. 90% of the time theu dont give me the honest level they are gonna play at and a few of their pedals when engaged really raise the volume. But that dude with the angled amp stand and a couple of decent pedals (maybe a mic clip on the amp) is gonna totally get integrated which is gonna sound a lot better. Usually its a professional musician with enough experience to know what works. Now this is live sound and not studio so different context, but not. I also do a good bit of live recording that translates a lot better when the guitarist is actually in the mix. Plenty of times smaller is perfectly enough.
And bassist with huge stacks are going DI. If at all.
Dont get me wrong I record through the various marshall jcm and 4 x 12 stacks here in the studio but I also have a few 2 x 12 crates that sound terrific. It doesnt need to be on 11.
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2015 13:00:16 GMT -6
The small amps work great because they have no low end. Number one problem with guitarists is the smiley face EQ they put on their amps. 9 times out of 10 if they have a problem with the sound it's because they have the low and high ends cranked because it sounds "good" in the room. The small amps simply cannot make the low end, and then you instinctively turn the top end down because there is no low end to compete with and it suddenly sounds really screechy.
I typically reset the large amps to mid points on all EQ and then have the guitarist and bassist play together for a few minutes while I make fine adjustments. I typically turn the bass EQ to midpoints too, again because of way too much low end.
What small amps can't do is get that low-mid grunt that you get from a lightly cranked amp pushing a box full of speakers that make it sound big, without actually being totally gained out.
And YES, gear always matters. It's just today's fad to believe that gear doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the person. Just ask any professional why they aren't working on mackie mixers with MXL mics..
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 7, 2015 14:22:42 GMT -6
svart I like my small amp. Its perfect for not walking around in the studio because it sits next to me in the control room. If my vintage 30 cab does not suits the taste, I use cab IRs With some pedals I can have many different sounds. This compromise sounds to my ears more pleasant as any sim. Perfect would be a small watt amp in a desk form case. It could sit next to my right hand.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 7, 2015 20:10:04 GMT -6
And YES, gear always matters. It's just today's fad to believe that gear doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the person. Just ask any professional why they aren't working on mackie mixers with MXL mics.. Amen I'm so sick of hearing people trying to justify their cheap ass gear or plug ins. It has its place sure and can be useful but doesnt compare. The enormous sound of recording a guitar with a u47 and a 421 through a neve pre going through an la2a cant be had through plug ins. It takes the real deal. And it sounds great. |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 7, 2015 20:23:30 GMT -6
Great gear matters a lot of the time. But sometimes crappy gear that shouldn't sound good can be magical. I think the only danger is trying to strictly codify what's right and what's wrong, because once you do that a part of your brain is no longer listening.
I'm not sure why amp simulators seem to be dragging behind in convincibility. I do use IK Multimedia's Bass Ampeg plugin a lot though for beefing up DI bass.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 7, 2015 20:40:33 GMT -6
Small amps?? Give me a Princeton Reverb any day. Get any sound I want out of that amp. And some sounds other amps can't do.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 7, 2015 21:23:40 GMT -6
And YES, gear always matters. It's just today's fad to believe that gear doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the person. Just ask any professional why they aren't working on mackie mixers with MXL mics.. Amen I'm so sick of hearing people trying to justify their cheap ass gear or plug ins. It has its place sure and can be useful but doesnt compare. The enormous sound of recording a guitar with a u47 and a 421 through a neve pre going through an la2a cant be had through plug ins. It takes the real deal. And it sounds great. I would not go that far, we have some great digital tools. I am sure it can be done, sometimes it fails.... |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 7, 2015 22:33:50 GMT -6
And YES, gear always matters. It's just today's fad to believe that gear doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the person. Just ask any professional why they aren't working on mackie mixers with MXL mics.. Amen I'm so sick of hearing people trying to justify their cheap ass gear or plug ins. It has its place sure and can be useful but doesnt compare. The enormous sound of recording a guitar with a u47 and a 421 through a neve pre going through an la2a cant be had through plug ins. It takes the real deal. And it sounds great. Yeah, i'm sick of it too, whats more than obvious to those of us with the experience of using the real gear, is that people making such ridiculous claims of equivalence have exactly NO experience using the real pieces, i think that rather significant reality should serve as a logical deterrent from them making such absurd statements, but alas it never does... |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 7, 2015 23:52:47 GMT -6
Amen I'm so sick of hearing people trying to justify their cheap ass gear or plug ins. It has its place sure and can be useful but doesnt compare. The enormous sound of recording a guitar with a u47 and a 421 through a neve pre going through an la2a cant be had through plug ins. It takes the real deal. And it sounds great. Yeah, i'm sick of it too, whats more than obvious to those of us with the experience of using the real gear, is that people making such ridiculous claims of equivalence have exactly NO experience using the real pieces, i think that rather significant reality should serve as a logical deterrent from them making such absurd statements, but alas it never does... I've spent some time with an LA-2A. That said, I haven't touched one in 7 years. In the meantime, I've picked up Waves and IK LA-2A emulations. While I think they're useful tools, I'm not going to make claims that they're they the best thing going or exactly the same. Unless I can do a direct comparison, I'm not going to consider how close or not they are. They are either useful tools, or not, that's it. |
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Post by stribor1 on Nov 8, 2015 1:22:42 GMT -6
When I was in my teens a buddy bought a little Fender Super Champ after years of me telling him his chasing the big expensive Marshall stack were a pipe dream that really wouldn't give him the tone he wanted, added some old Jensen 8 inches in a custom cabinet I built atube screamer and sonic bliss! Depends what are you aiming for, I´m getting all the tones I need from my ´72 100W Marshall SuperBass, with 4x12 pre rola greenbacks. A small amp simply doesn´t sound this way (nor any other modern high wattage amp mind you). Of course it helps playing through a original ´63 strat or CC LesPaul with original PAFs. On the other hand I get also great tones from my ´67 Deluxe Reverb and a ToneKing Imperial I used to own (I need to get another one some day). They are tools, once you learn how they can and should sound, how to mike them, which pre to use and which speaker to choose you will get more fun out of them. There is a lot of misconception how amps are supposed to sound, if Page is always surrounded by Marshalls people assume that the sound coming from the Zep records is the sound of a 100W Marshall head. The recording/mixing/mastering setup is a big part of the equation as well. |
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Post by rocinante on Nov 8, 2015 1:33:16 GMT -6
I use the waves la2a (cla) every session. I think that says I find it useful. I just finished a 5 song hip hop album that was made for a documentary on the artist who recently lost his war with cancer which I used plug ins for most of the mix and im totally confident it will sound just as good as if I had decided to use hardware.
Cytomics 'the glue' and Klanghelm sit on my daws drum and main bus and are used all the time. They alternate or get used in conjunction with either of two buss comps (gssl with turbo and sss or TK Audio's bc1).
So I like and use them as tools that are useful. But I don't think they do what hardware can do.
I don't consider myself to be a super producer/engineer with some ostentatious list of clients. Hell I record and mix mostly folk, metal, hip hop, and punk demos and the majority of my better paying work is conferences and voice-overs which i rarely use any of my nice hardware on. But I also won't fool myself into believing that an Ashley or Presonus compressor is gonna do what an 1176 or a Distressor does. I tried too.
That said I use dbx 160xt's (which by no means are very expensive) on almost every band session as well as an ART VLA II. Both great tools. IMHO.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 8, 2015 1:40:01 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure Zeppelin recording and mixing on a Helios had a significant role in how their album sounded. Warm, wooden, raw, and full are a few words that come to mind.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 8, 2015 7:19:25 GMT -6
I use the waves la2a (cla) every session. I think that says I find it useful. I just finished a 5 song hip hop album that was made for a documentary on the artist who recently lost his war with cancer which I used plug ins for most of the mix and im totally confident it will sound just as good as if I had decided to use hardware. Cytomics 'the glue' and Klanghelm sit on my daws drum and main bus and are used all the time. They alternate or get used in conjunction with either of two buss comps (gssl with turbo and sss or TK Audio's bc1). So I like and use them as tools that are useful. But I don't think they do what hardware can do. I don't consider myself to be a super producer/engineer with some ostentatious list of clients. Hell I record and mix mostly folk, metal, hip hop, and punk demos and the majority of my better paying work is conferences and voice-overs which i rarely use any of my nice hardware on. But I also won't fool myself into believing that an Ashley or Presonus compressor is gonna do what an 1176 or a Distressor does. I tried too. That said I use dbx 160xt's (which by no means are very expensive) on almost every band session as well as an ART VLA II. Both great tools. IMHO. My aim was not to have a debate about software vs hardware, because we all know some great software tools. I am wondering why they can get, something very complex, like a tape simulation, and they fail by a rather simple technology - guitar amps. Or they fail simulating the way a real mixing console reacts.... I am not in one camp, I use both..... as you can read I use Cab IRs as well as real cabs. Take for example the Waves or UAD 1176.... you will have a hard time in a blind test to tell which is software, and which file is hardware. That alone shows ... with enough dsp power and people who know how to code it can be done. Most of the new reverb plug ins eat the old HW units alive... I love to use best of both worlds... |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 8, 2015 7:24:21 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure Zeppelin recording and mixing on a Helios had a significant role in how their album sounded. Warm, wooden, raw, and full are a few words that come to mind. I am pretty sure they will even make a great album on a Mackie.... |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 8, 2015 8:50:57 GMT -6
My main amps are Champs. They just work better at home. And I love that 6V6, not mid-scooped sound. I have modified my smallest champ with a speaker output, I run it to a big 12" cabinet, and I have modified the circuitry to let a little more bass through and some other tweaks. It can get surprisingly loud and low-endy through the bigger speaker now. Me, me, I'm a Champ man!
That's a great story in the first post. I feel the same way when I turn on most of my hardware. Although yes software is just the reality of the modern world. I think the real gear is a little more special, and worth the cost and upkeep.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 8, 2015 9:25:52 GMT -6
And YES, gear always matters. It's just today's fad to believe that gear doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the person. Just ask any professional why they aren't working on mackie mixers with MXL mics.. Amen I'm so sick of hearing people trying to justify their cheap ass gear or plug ins. It has its place sure and can be useful but doesnt compare. The enormous sound of recording a guitar with a u47 and a 421 through a neve pre going through an la2a cant be had through plug ins. It takes the real deal. And it sounds great. I find this strange as well. I just did a project for a guy that used three guitarists at different times. Two of the guitarists used really good vintage Fender amps, but one guitarist insisted he record with his cheap Fender Frontman. My guess is that he thought he was being more authentic- he being a "true bluesman" - using cheap gear. What really galled me was his stubbornness to even try either of the two 2K+ point-to-point tube amps I had in my studio. No matter what I suggested he was going to do it his way. Of the three guitarists he was the most novice as a player, yet he was the most resistant to gear. Of course he was an encyclopedia of who the great obscure bluesmen were. I felt sorry for him. I ended up replacing his worst sounding parts by playing them myself. They were simple blues rhythm parts. So, he didn't even know he'd been replaced. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 8, 2015 9:39:14 GMT -6
I can relate to that one for sure. Advanced players seem to be more willing to do whatever is necessary, and simply use better gear. I've recorded a few "less experienced" people that insist on using broken cymbals, just garbage, trashed drum kits with everything on them destroyed, crappy guitars, whatever. I don't know why certain people cling to their gear like that. Just a lack of experience I guess.
It's fine to be insistent about artistic choices or whatever, but to insist on using broken or terrible gear just because of familiarity, I'm not 100% sure about. I guess the best you can do as an engineer is just try to adapt your recording to this person to make it sound as good as possible. I guess butting heads in the studio, you pretty much always have to defer to the client, no matter how bad their idea is. It's certainly a fine line between helping things be better faster, or stepping on people's toes creatively.
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