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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 25, 2015 23:15:11 GMT -6
Almost $6k for this.... interesting, the banks of 8 accessed by flipping the console over serves as a glaring endorsement for piece of cake channel strip modularity! He seems a very down to earth fella, good to see an honest video of a real life experience, bad to see that happen to anyone. I can't help but feel if this fella heard a Jw modded delta he'd totally lose his mind. I was also struck by how many electrolytic caps i saw in the cards.
anyone here have experience with one of these? how do they sound? Supposed to be based on the Trident 80 series?
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 3:38:49 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Oct 26, 2015 3:38:49 GMT -6
Almost $6k for this.... interesting, the banks of 8 accessed by flipping the console over serves as a glaring endorsement for piece of cake channel strip modularity! He seems a very down to earth fella, good to see an honest video of a real life experience, bad to see that happen to anyone. I can't help but feel if this fella heard a Jw modded delta he'd totally lose his mind. I was also struck by how many electrolytic caps i saw in the cards. anyone here have experience with one of these? how do they sound? Supposed to be based on the Trident 80 series? Since I bought my Apollo so roughly 3 years ago , I have read many things about toft with interest as I love the idea of a board. Sadly my conclusion is I would never buy one as the build quality seems very suspect and I have read other stories about long delays. I thought this guy's room and monitors sounded very dialed in and precise!
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 8:08:14 GMT -6
Post by svart on Oct 26, 2015 8:08:14 GMT -6
I looked at a toft waaay back in the day when they were first coming out.. I immediately discarded it from my list, along with a handful of others. Way too expensive for what you get, audio and hardware wise, that's for sure.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 26, 2015 8:21:53 GMT -6
I was seriously considering a 32 channel toft until I spoke to someone who was using one in a pro studio.... he didn't have good things to say about the serviceability, but he did like the sound and features. Like the guy in the video, he also had issues getting the unit serviced by PMI.
Seems to me like it would be nice for a hobbyist studio where downtime isn't a big deal, but if you have clients and deadlines, it's probably not worth the hassle.
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 8:33:55 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Oct 26, 2015 8:33:55 GMT -6
The best thing to come from Toft was their dual channel strip. I have one and it gets used for room microphones exclusively. I may have mentioned this before....
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 8:43:08 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 8:43:08 GMT -6
My friend has one in his home studio, a remodeled basement . He's a real deal engineer, works on major classical recordings. He loves it, but thinks the EQ isn't so great.He uses an Apollo 16 with it. I could have had a 24 channel Toft once for $2,000, but couldn't find a real reason I need a board in my living room, since I mainly record one track at a time.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 26, 2015 8:50:46 GMT -6
My friend has one in his home studio, a remodeled basement . He's a real deal engineer, works on major classical recordings. He loves it, but thinks the EQ isn't so great.He uses an Apollo 16 with it. I could have had a 24 channel Toft once for $2,000, but couldn't find a real reason I need a board in my living room, since I mainly record one track at a time. I turned down a 32 channel for $2800 locally. Partially kicking myself that I didn't take it. For that low dough, I think I would have gotten my money's worth from it, but just didn't have the space for it.
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 9:56:34 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 9:56:34 GMT -6
I feel you jcoutou. I think down the road, I'll get a summing mixer, but who knows.
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Post by jdc on Oct 26, 2015 12:13:50 GMT -6
I own and operate a studio with 2 other people. We have a Toft 32 that we got for fairly cheap, a few channels aren't working and we've decided to leave them as is for the time being because of the repair horror stories. We can still make due with 29 to 30 channels haha My first impression of the toft was how noisy the monitor section can be, but I find the EQs to be quite musical and very serviceable if you don't mind imparting color on anything you use them for. The ease of operation from working on a console may be worth it alone, but you have to be prepared for a product that isn't pristinely clear. If you're comfortable spilling to the desk, and using the direct outs (whether it be channel specific or your summed busses) back into your DAW and monitoring from there then I think it can be a very useful piece of gear. Every desk is just a summing mixer, so if you prefer one with faders and eq that will always impart a certain kind of color then the Toft should be right up your alley. It's not the best sounding board ever made, but I've heard some mixes come out of it that have been downright good. I think having a strong understanding of what you like about the gear you REALLY like can help you in these kinds of situations. The Toft speeds up work flow because it's an analog board, at the price of some clarity because it's a fairly cheap analog board. Horses for courses and all of that.
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 12:40:23 GMT -6
Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 12:40:23 GMT -6
I've never heard one, but i can say i really like the look of it, the wood surround looks very nice.
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 13:30:01 GMT -6
Post by jdc on Oct 26, 2015 13:30:01 GMT -6
I think if you could get one into JW's hands it would sound as good as it looks.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 26, 2015 18:21:09 GMT -6
Anybody that buys anything that ships broken, and doesn't return it, is a fool. Call your friggin dealer dude and get one that's flawless. Sheesh.
Disenchanted? Sorry dude but if you spend 5K and didn't do your homework of why it would benefit you, I have no sympathy. The guy comes off like a fool to me. Why he'd want to document that is one of the interesting aspects of the internet age. "Look, I'm stupid! Let me show you why!"
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 18:48:27 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 18:48:27 GMT -6
I know what you mean swurveman, it seemed to me there was something strange about that whole process, even though I always feel for anyone buying gear that's defective. I actually watched some of this a few days before this thread got started and thought it was a little odd.
My friend hasn't had a day's trouble with his Toft, and likes it, but I bet Tony's right about a modded Soundcraft. I think Malcolm Toft himself has hinted there's only so much he can do with Chinese EQ's at the price point. Last AES show he was showing a board designed to plug in a bunch of 500 series boxes.
I don't quite get that concept. To me, if I have a board, it's so all the tracks sound like they're recorded by people playing together in the same room through the same preamps. Of course there are probably thousands of examples of great tracks done with various preamps, each for their particular tone quality, but my benchmark is always from classic 60's and 70's recordings. Did Neil Young, or The Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or say even Nirvana later on ever make their great records using different preamps, or were they mainly through one console's preamps?
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Toft
Oct 26, 2015 18:53:47 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Oct 26, 2015 18:53:47 GMT -6
I think if you could get one into JW's hands it would sound as good as it looks. I remember reading a post where Jim talked about modding it.. even described what you had to do.. it was a lot... there were basic design problems with it from the start... and reliability issues as well... it was a bit of a horror story there for a while.. digital board, no digital board.. meter bridge.. faulty units.. etc etc Everyone expected because it had the Toft name on it.... you know.. it would be tridentish. I also considered it at a couple of times... but passed and ended up in Delta land. cheers Wiz
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 26, 2015 18:58:14 GMT -6
Anybody that buys anything that ships broken, and doesn't return it, is a fool. Call your friggin dealer dude and get one that's flawless. Sheesh. Disenchanted? Sorry dude but if you spend 5K and didn't do your homework of why it would benefit you, I have no sympathy. The guy comes off like a fool to me. Why he'd want to document that is one of the interesting aspects of the internet age. "Look, I'm stupid! Let me show you why!" I actually found the video a very honest portrayal of his experience. We all can be duped by the promise of a name. And if this board didn't have Malcolm Toft's name attached he probably would have realized early on that it was only average at best. I have no need of a board, but I could never understand buying one if you didn't LOVE the eq.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,012
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Post by ericn on Oct 26, 2015 19:34:50 GMT -6
Anybody that buys anything that ships broken, and doesn't return it, is a fool. Call your friggin dealer dude and get one that's flawless. Sheesh. Disenchanted? Sorry dude but if you spend 5K and didn't do your homework of why it would benefit you, I have no sympathy. The guy comes off like a fool to me. Why he'd want to document that is one of the interesting aspects of the internet age. "Look, I'm stupid! Let me show you why!" I actually found the video a very honest portrayal of his experience. We all can be duped by the promise of a name. And if this board didn't have Malcolm Toft's name attached he probably would have realized early on that it was only average at best. I have no need of a board, but I could never understand buying one if you didn't LOVE the eq. Part of why I knew it would be average was the name Malcom Toft! John Oram would have told me it would have sucked!
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 27, 2015 9:45:58 GMT -6
That console measures -48 db stereo crosstalk, .4% THD at higher levels and a pretty good amount of hiss thrown in. It's tough enough battling musicians, but to fight the console?
Without the Toft 'brand' it would have been considered another Mackie.
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Toft
Oct 27, 2015 11:23:49 GMT -6
Post by schmalzy on Oct 27, 2015 11:23:49 GMT -6
That console measures -48 db stereo crosstalk, .4% THD at higher levels and a pretty good amount of hiss thrown in. It's tough enough battling musicians, but to fight the console? Without the Toft 'brand' it would have been considered another Mackie. So I have two questions when I see your post. 1) If I'm looking for a console primarily for preamps with useable EQ plus summing - which is exactly the situation I'm finding myself in: What's a good, affordable console that's going to be a step up over the Toft in a similar price range? I'd love to have 32 channels (16 for tracking and 16 "locked" and untouched for consistency in summing) but really, a 16 channel board with selectable mic/line and bypassable EQ would also be useable. 2) What's your price to mod a 16-channel Toft to at least get the crosstalk and THD to a more useable spec? That's maybe the "REAL" cost of the board - the purchase plus the mod.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2015 13:22:43 GMT -6
That console measures -48 db stereo crosstalk, .4% THD at higher levels and a pretty good amount of hiss thrown in. It's tough enough battling musicians, but to fight the console? Without the Toft 'brand' it would have been considered another Mackie. So I have two questions when I see your post. 1) If I'm looking for a console primarily for preamps with useable EQ plus summing - which is exactly the situation I'm finding myself in: What's a good, affordable console that's going to be a step up over the Toft in a similar price range? I'd love to have 32 channels (16 for tracking and 16 "locked" and untouched for consistency in summing) but really, a 16 channel board with selectable mic/line and bypassable EQ would also be useable. 2) What's your price to mod a 16-channel Toft to at least get the crosstalk and THD to a more useable spec? That's maybe the "REAL" cost of the board - the purchase plus the mod. easy, a Soundcraft Delta with Jims mods has a 91db crosstalk spec @10k!!! and from a hifi standpoint, it's the most beautiful sounding console I've ever heard, ever! Yes i own 2, If you don't like eq's to sound as sweet as a pultec on every channel? don't get the JW delta, you'll totally hate it! The best part about a 48db crosstalk spec on the Toft is, you won't need to check your mixes in mono haha
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Toft
Oct 27, 2015 13:42:51 GMT -6
Post by jimwilliams on Oct 27, 2015 13:42:51 GMT -6
I do mod the master module on those here. Crosstalk improves to around -70 db or so. THD lowers to .003% at +27 dbu allowing a hot, yet clear mix. Stock Toft's get real dirty after +1 on the VU.
Mic pre's are either INA217 Burrbrown or THAT 1510 8 pin chips. SSM 2019 and PIP's retrofit those. The EQ uses 072 opamps, they get hissy during top boost. A ton of 22 uf coupling caps creates a lot of low end phase shift, no low end depth. Larger caps would fix that.
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Post by mitchkricun on Oct 27, 2015 19:27:24 GMT -6
That console measures -48 db stereo crosstalk, .4% THD at higher levels and a pretty good amount of hiss thrown in. It's tough enough battling musicians, but to fight the console? Without the Toft 'brand' it would have been considered another Mackie. The best part about a 48db crosstalk spec on the Toft is, you won't need to check your mixes in mono haha Ouch and ouch... I bought version one of the ATB 24, partly because of the name, partly because Tchad Blake bought one and spoke well of it. I do think it's a step up above a Mackie. The crosstalk does suck, as do the faders and the eq, umm... sucks pretty much. I only use the mic pre's on toms when a Neil Peart type drummer comes in and I don't have enough outboard pre's, or for a scratch vocal while tracking a band. Like Jim said, the low end is not solid and I find the low mids to be murky. It's not without it's charms, and using it primarily as a summing mixer with sub groups and aux sends, I get decent results. I'm considering sending the Master section to JW, but I kinda don't want to dump any more money into this board, plus it's such a pain in the ass to remove! Problem is, I would take such a bath selling it... so I've been in a kind of limbo, trying to figure out what's my next move. I've been on Ebay looking at Delta's, but don't quite have the funds to buy console plus JW mods right now. (Also, working hard to get my ITB chops up to snuff, in hopes of rendering the point moot!) And yes, I've had my own crazy customer service experiences with PMI, which I won't go into here... But I will say, it would be very hard for me to ever buy anything that Mr. Hyatt (PMI) puts out. He's the Jimmy Buffet of Pro Audio IMO.
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Toft
Oct 27, 2015 19:56:43 GMT -6
Post by b1 on Oct 27, 2015 19:56:43 GMT -6
Just look at that poor guy laboring... There's a great salesman behind that vid.
Then he found out that the Ghost was all he needed?
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Toft
Oct 27, 2015 20:27:30 GMT -6
Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2015 20:27:30 GMT -6
That console measures -48 db stereo crosstalk, .4% THD at higher levels and a pretty good amount of hiss thrown in. It's tough enough battling musicians, but to fight the console? Without the Toft 'brand' it would have been considered another Mackie. The best part about a 48db crosstalk spec on the Toft is, you won't need to check your mixes in mono haha Ouch and ouch... I bought version one of the ATB 24, partly because of the name, partly because Tchad Blake bought one and spoke well of it. I do think it's a step up above a Mackie. The crosstalk does suck, as do the faders and the eq, umm... sucks pretty much. I only use the mic pre's on toms when a Neil Peart type drummer comes in and I don't have enough outboard pre's, or for a scratch vocal while tracking a band. Like Jim said, the low end is not solid and I find the low mids to be murky. It's not without it's charms, and using it primarily as a summing mixer with sub groups and aux sends, I get decent results. I'm considering sending the Master section to JW, but I kinda don't want to dump any more money into this board, plus it's such a pain in the ass to remove! Problem is, I would take such a bath selling it... so I've been in a kind of limbo, trying to figure out what's my next move. I've been on Ebay looking at Delta's, but don't quite have the funds to buy console plus JW mods right now. (Also, working hard to get my ITB chops up to snuff, in hopes of rendering the point moot!) And yes, I've had my own crazy customer service experiences with PMI, which I won't go into here... But I will say, it would be very hard for me to ever buy anything that Mr. Hyatt (PMI) puts out. He's the Jimmy Buffet of Pro Audio IMO. sorry to hear that you had problems, If you do get the Delta, just have Jim do the mods as you can afford it and you'll knockem out in no time, do the master section first, and then start chipping away at the channel strips, you will not be disappointed i promise you. I have a bud lined up to buy my fully modded 16 channel Delta 200 with a cps 650 PSU right now, if that falls through, i will be listing that board for sale, someone will be very lucky to have it! I'm only selling it because I have a 38x8x2 Delta8 desk thats taking it's place, both consoles are for all intents and purposes identical, the only differences are 8 aux sends instead of 6, 8 subs instead of 4, a couple more monitoring options, and a sweet meter bridge...thats it, the Delta 200 channel strips actually plugnplay right into the Delta 8 chassis seamlessly
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Toft
Oct 27, 2015 22:20:54 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 27, 2015 22:20:54 GMT -6
I looked around on eBay and saw a few versions of the Soundcraft Delta, Delta 24, Delta 40, Delta 200 DLX32, 200 SR (was only $549), Delta 200 8, $3,000. Is there one version in particular that's considered the best? 200 B looked serious, but was three times the price of the others.
Then there's the Spirit and the Ghost, which are in the same general price range. It gets a bit confusing between the Delta, Spirit, and Ghost to know which is the one to seek out. Is there one Soundcraft model between $600 and say.. $1500 that's considered the standout? I look at preamp and EQ tone quality first, functionality next.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2015 22:38:19 GMT -6
the Delta is the best platform to start with from all the research i've done, its modular and that on it's own is worth it's weight in gold, look at what the guy in the video on this thread had to go through to get one card out! with a modular rig you can pull one card at a time in minutes, and still use the console while you're repairing a problem, i have some extra channel strips so i'll never be down a single channel, the DLX channel strips have the 4 band eq's with the 2 mid sweepable channels, so they're the ones to grab, i wouldn't bother with the lesser eq's personally, the 200B is not in the Delta's league and not a good platform to mod from everything i've read.
After researching the heck out of this, my decision really came down to 2 things, Jim Williams lives less than a mile from my house 8) and he personally uses a Soundcraft Delta console modified to his whim, as I sit here in front of my Delta 8 typing this, there is no doubt that it was one of the best decisions i've ever made regarding pro audio anything.
edit; btw, i should make clear, i'm clearly a big fan of Jim's work, but i'm also in no way involved in any sort of dealings with Jim, i pay exactly the same as anyone else for the work he does for me.
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