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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 8:34:27 GMT -6
First, I know how difficult construction can get, so good luck Donr, there is some great advice here. Some of the guys really know from building !
I'm just checking in to see how it all goes. I'm so far from having my own space, I can only vicariously enjoy the progress of some of the members here who are building their space. From my experience in my apartment, it seems like very good idea to measure what you're surrounded by first.
I've reached the sad position of just giving up until I can manage to get into a new space. Where I live, there are two giant motor rooms directly under my apartment, plus two elevators next door, a commercial laundry room below my windows, with dryers running all day, and a mailroom outside my door. It takes an act of God before all of the above is quiet for ten minutes. Because of this, I've hesitated to spend one dollar on anything toward room treatment. I don't own my apartment, so I can't change anything in the room for recording. I might pop for some sound absorbers for the walls near my speakers as soon as I get some monitor stands.
It's so expensive to live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, (the 2nd most expensive in America today), that I haven't been able to save anything toward moving. Hopefully something will shift.
I'm curious how expensive it would be to get advice and a building plan from one of the pros mentioned here.
Nice link shmalzy, and welcome to the boards.
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Post by BradM on Oct 26, 2015 8:51:09 GMT -6
The best thing I did for my rooms was to hire two experts: Jeff Hedback (acoustical design) and Bob Hodas (room tuning). Those investments were probably the best decisions I've ever made for my studio. Jeff does such amazing work for very reasonable prices. He also did a buddy's home theater room which turned out amazing. Unlike some of the other designers mentioned in this thread, Jeff will humbly work within ANY budget.
For acoustic products, GIK is highly recommended here.
Brad
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Post by levon on Oct 26, 2015 9:32:51 GMT -6
Another happy GIK customer here. I'm using a bunch of their absorbers. They're also very helpful in my living room, btw...
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Post by jsteiger on Oct 26, 2015 10:00:57 GMT -6
Having an initial discussion with Mr. Hedback is free. I have been dealing with him for a tad over a year and get excited every time we are gonna talk. The time delay on my project has been on my and my architects end, not Jeff's.
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Post by donr on Oct 26, 2015 10:25:04 GMT -6
Thanks again everybody. Great info and leads. I've got four 6' bi-fold GIK gobos, I like them a lot.
I need to decide about going for isolation or not. I think I'll start by taking gouge's advice to measure ambient sound.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 11:15:55 GMT -6
silence is the most important sound in music imv, the bigger the contrast between it and the loudest sounds(even/especially under compression), the greater the impact the music will have, Recording mellow acoustic guitar in a great room with a 25db ambient noise floor is miles better than he same in a room with a 32db ambient noise floor IMO, tall open ceiling and concrete floor is my personal fav set up of all time.
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 11:21:53 GMT -6
For my project, I picked up several sheets of 2" x 4' x 8' closed cell rigid polystyrene foam board from Lowes. I'm going to double this up between the studs as an alternative to the blown in foam on the outer walls and probably one or two layers in parallel floater walls. I think what I got is branded by DOW, but Lowes is only showing a different lower priced version. I paid just under $50.00 per sheet when I bought it.
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 11:24:33 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 11:32:22 GMT -6
For my project, I picked up several sheets of 2" x 4' x 8' closed cell rigid polystyrene foam board from Lowes. I'm going to double this up between the studs as an alternative to the blown in foam on the outer walls and probably one or two layers in parallel floater walls. I think what I got is branded by DOW, but Lowes is only showing a different lower priced version. I paid just under $50.00 per sheet when I bought it. Closed cell foam has very little acoustic or sound proofing value, if ur looking for thermal value it's ok, anyone who reads the Gervais book will learn a lot from it, I'm a B licensed building contractor in Socal for 25 years and I picked up good stuff from that book, I believe it's available PDF if I'm not mistaken? |
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 11:49:44 GMT -6
It's for thermal value on the exteriors. It sure beats many alternatives for filling the voids and also layering for sound proofing in an existing structure.
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 12:23:48 GMT -6
tonycamphd, I didn't intend to butt heads with you on various subjects. I understand you're a contractor. And I don't mean to be smug or snappy in response when I say I've been paid as a designer-fabricator-engineer in most industries for over 40 years. Just to lay it out there that I'm not reaching into the wind. I do like others' ideas. That makes the world go around, IMO. I like the old saying: "Iron sharpens iron"... which is to say, I learn from everyone, and it keeps me sharper than "without it". 
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 12:41:06 GMT -6
I'm curious about concrete floors. I've seen some beautiful finished concrete floors in shelter magazines, and I wondered if a sealer/finish somewhere between matt and semi-gloss would affect the sound negatively.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 13:09:00 GMT -6
It's for thermal value on the exteriors. It sure beats many alternatives for filling the voids and also layering for sound proofing in an existing structure. TBC I'm also not looking to but heads, i gave that up for lent 8) but i do think it's important to keep the info on the forum as accurate as possible as a mistake in building can lead to a hugely expensive and noisy pit of despair, while i agree that polystyrene is good for thermal purposes, it has almost 0 value for sound proofing, it's stc ratings are abysmal, even if you layer it 2' thick, it simply doesn't have the mass or density to absorb/stop anything above the highest of frequencies, I feel that needs to be made clear, especially since the OP turned the direction of the thread toward sound proofing from jet noise being his primary issue. The best broadband and bass absorption is open face fiberglass or cotton insulation, even for straight up bass traps as long as they're deep, loose fill insulation has much better gas trapping properties than rigid types as owens 703, rigid insulation serves better for shallow broadband/ bass trap configurations due to space limitations. 5/8" typeX drywall serves as the best low cost mass barrier to ST along with decoupling, 1/2" drywall is about useless in comparison, 1/2" drywall doubled up to 1" isn't as effective as a single 5/8" sheet either, there is a large difference between the 2 in the density of the gypsum and the binders that hold it together. Here's the PDF for Gervais's book, it'll give you a ton of useful construction geek info 8) fs1.uclg.ru/books/pdf/1356077674_Gervais_Rod_-_Home_Recording_Studio_Build_it_Like_the_Pros.pdf |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 13:11:59 GMT -6
I'm curious about concrete floors. I've seen some beautiful finished concrete floors in shelter magazines, and I wondered if a sealer/finish somewhere between matt and semi-gloss would affect the sound negatively. not much martin, but it's there, i've paid close attention to just that when i'm out and about different establishments, i do hear a diff sig diff between concrete and ceramic tile surfaces though.... i'm such a geek haha |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2015 14:02:08 GMT -6
I'm with you there Tony, everything matters! Still, I think I'd like a cool looking finish on a concrete floor if I could have one.
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 14:25:31 GMT -6
It's for thermal value on the exteriors. It sure beats many alternatives for filling the voids and also layering for sound proofing in an existing structure. TBC I'm also not looking to but heads, i gave that up for lent 8) but i do think it's important to keep the info on the forum as accurate as possible as a mistake in building can lead to a hugely expensive and noisy pit of despair, while i agree that polystyrene is good for thermal purposes, it has almost 0 value for sound proofing, it's stc ratings are abysmal, even if you layer it 2' thick, it simply doesn't have the mass or density to absorb/stop anything above the highest of frequencies, I feel that needs to be made clear, especially since the OP turned the direction of the thread toward sound proofing from jet noise being his primary issue. The best broadband and bass absorption is open face fiberglass or cotton insulation, even for straight up bass traps as long as they're deep, loose fill insulation has much better gas trapping properties than rigid types as owens 703, rigid insulation serves better for shallow broadband/ bass trap configurations due to space limitations. 5/8" typeX drywall serves as the best low cost mass barrier to ST along with decoupling, 1/2" drywall is about useless in comparison, 1/2" drywall doubled up to 1" isn't as effective as a single 5/8" sheet either, there is a large difference between the 2 in the density of the gypsum and the binders that hold it together. Here's the PDF for Gervais's book, it'll give you a ton of useful construction geek info 8) fs1.uclg.ru/books/pdf/1356077674_Gervais_Rod_-_Home_Recording_Studio_Build_it_Like_the_Pros.pdfI agree about the theory of mass as a sound barrier. But, if you take 2x 1/2" drywall sheets and decouple them with dead air space between, and rubberize them on the floor & ceiling (and between each span), you've taken the initial sound-wave and drastically filtered/decoupled it rather than transfer it through subsequent adjoining materials, exceeding the ability of 1x 5/8" sheet hard mounted to a monolithic wall, as it were. In effect, you've broken the conductive path. The further apart, to a degree, and the more sectional mass the better. But, that separated distance is only realistic to a point, except to allow for a decoupled absorption material layer in-between. I should clarify. I'm referring to the 2" layers of polystyrene as one element and not a stand alone solution. There are other surface materials involved and how they relate, or don't relate to the other materials will be of prime importance. Even how the drywall is fastened will matter. How every element fits into the system will have significance. It's harder to retrofit an existing structure for good audio sound properties. It's better to build from scratch with superior sound proofing "mass" materials. Martin, I believe if all things were equal between two rooms, size and material-wise. The difference in a bare, matte, or gloss finish on a concrete floor will be indiscernible to the human ear. |
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 14:26:38 GMT -6
And for the record, I don't like 1/2" drywall, lol.
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 14:40:27 GMT -6
I glanced through that PDF just now. It's great some great ideas in it...
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Post by winetree on Oct 26, 2015 14:49:59 GMT -6
I really didn't want to comment other than my post in this thread about hiring a professional studio designer but, The pink fluffy stuff has better sound and thermal properties than the expensive closed foam sheets described above. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 26, 2015 14:52:46 GMT -6
I'm with you there Tony, everything matters! Still, I think I'd like a cool looking finish on a concrete floor if I could have one. I'll be doing stained concrete floors for the new building..... something similar to this studio: www.weslachot.com/project15.html#I think it looks cool And the acoustics are as good as any other hard surface, although not identical. |
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Post by b1 on Oct 26, 2015 15:32:53 GMT -6
I really didn't want to comment other than my post in this thread about hiring a professional studio designer but, The pink fluffy stuff has better sound and thermal properties than the expensive closed foam sheets described above. For my use, the first choice would be sprayed closed cell foam filling the entire cavity, but I'm going to try layering in the Pactiv in the kitchen first. I may want to switch to the spray stuff for the rest. The pink stuff has it's uses, but R-30 of the Pactiv will be R-30 in the future since it retains it's shape. Not always uniformly so with the pink stuff on a large scale. I've got a lot of cellulose now, which is even better thermally than the batts initially, but it settles if not installed effectively; sometimes worse in some areas; again not uniform. I checked the Pactiv I've got and it's the same as what's sold now, only now $10.00 cheaper per sheet. I'll probably fill in some dead air space with the fiberglass, but not within the walls. I know the Pactiv will maintain it's shape, thickness, and properties as when installed. More expensive, yes. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Oct 26, 2015 17:41:42 GMT -6
Having an initial discussion with Mr. Hedback is free. I have been dealing with him for a tad over a year and get excited every time we are gonna talk. The time delay on my project has been on my and my architects end, not Jeff's. I've never enjoyed any one more in a construction project ever. Jeff H is a joy to work with and great at his job. |
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Post by wiz on Oct 26, 2015 18:55:20 GMT -6
Have a good look at John Sayers forum donr I would look into splaying the walls if I was gonna build walls, from memory, 6 degrees is all you need.... John did this sort of garage stuff all the time... cheers Wiz |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2015 20:53:36 GMT -6
Having an initial discussion with Mr. Hedback is free. I have been dealing with him for a tad over a year and get excited every time we are gonna talk. The time delay on my project has been on my and my architects end, not Jeff's. I've never enjoyed any one more in a construction project ever. Jeff H is a joy to work with and great at his job. I'm pretty far down the road, but i would love to talk to Mr Hedback about some things still to be done in here...., how does he structure his fee? |
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Post by joseph on Oct 26, 2015 23:05:05 GMT -6
I have 6 GIK 242 panels and agree with the endorsements.
On the other hand, if a room is boxy with hard early reflections, ain't nothing you can do to make it sound great, loud drums especially. I'm not a fan of super dry sounds either for most music.
For low ceilings, underheads or just tom mics and a front of kit mic is something to try. Thin cymbals, can't stress this enough!
Martin, you might want to demo DMG Expurgate. I've found it more flexible than any other gate at removing noise without fucking with tone too much, and you could automate it for intermittent annoyances.
Also Beyer M88s and M160s will reject the hell out of everything not right in front of them. I've used them all the time with band/amps/drums in room recordings for this reason.
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