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Post by donr on Oct 25, 2015 13:16:00 GMT -6
I'm moving into a new space, and the studio will be rooms behind a two car garage that was originally a 3 room office. The space is approximately 13x 23 with a 7 ½ ft ceiling and a shallow peaked roof above. There are interior walls subdividing the room into three, which I'm planning to take down. I'm also thinking of demo'ing the ceiling and opening the space to the roof and insulating and sheetrocking the roof interior. I can also build new interior walls to whatever dimension inside the structure, and I could build non parallel walls too. Is it worth it to build non parallel walls, or not? I plan on using one end of the room for monitoring and the other end for recording. I'd like to keep it fairly live, with most of the absorption on the monitoring end. Any thoughts about how I should do this would be welcome.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 25, 2015 13:25:38 GMT -6
@tonycamp
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -6
I think I would open up the ceiling as you mentioned and extend the partition wall with the two doors, up to the roof. That will open both the live room and control room but keep them separate from one another. Then maybe tweak that short partition wall for storage on one side, or remove it altogether (having storage elsewhere?).
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 25, 2015 14:57:52 GMT -6
cool Don! If it was me, I'd definitely open up the ceiling to make it as tall as possible, also to keep the room as comfy and spacious as possible I would make a single room live end/dead end space as you suggested, i would not make the walls non parallel unless you you can keep the same internal space, 13' isn't wide enough to rob any space, and you'd need a pretty steep angle for the asymmetry to be effective IME, just keepem parallel and treat with opposing absorption/diffusion.
the most important thing for anyone making suggestions to know is "do you need to sound proof?" or are you isolated to the degree you don't need to worry about sound escaping or coming in? I'm assuming your floor is concrete because it's a garage? That is an extremely AWESOME thing! concrete sounds great imo, you can use throw rugs to tame things down if you want, the ceiling(if you don't need to worry about sound proofing), should be insulated open face down, and covered with acoustically transparent cloth, absorbing as much as you can up high is the way to go, the walls should be finished with anything except exposed drywall, drywall sounds terrible, carpet sounds terrible, the only thing that sounds worse than either is both 8) Air conditioning is also important.
Hope this helps a little, feel free to ring me up if I can help you answer any q's, I love talking this stuff haha, i think you have my #
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Post by jsteiger on Oct 25, 2015 15:58:59 GMT -6
I would suggest talking to Jeff Hedback. He is awesome. He's works remotely and is cost affordable. He does everything from $300 bedroom treatments to multi-million dollar ground up studios builds. www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.comJeff is currently designing a studio for me. He is also working with dandeurloo, drbill and has worked for BradM. I like that he flies a little under the radar while still having done rooms for Ozzy, John Fogerty, Christina Aguilera, Joe Walsh and many more.
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 15:59:12 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts after thinking awhile... I'm guessing the structure is stick frame and the diagram showing parallel interior walls are proposed? If that's the plan then there needs to be a disconnect between them and the outer walls so sound isn't conducted from one to the other. Possibly float the interior wall on rubber (maybe high density, but softer will do the job).
I would avoid fabric on the ceiling if the floor is concrete, because it may cause higher than normal humidity if void of vapor barriers, thus mold may grow on organic coverings. I would suggest blowing in closed cell foam between the rafters and covering with some sort of inert/non-organic ceiling tiles, or treated to resist mold growth.
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Post by drbill on Oct 25, 2015 16:04:07 GMT -6
I would suggest talking to Jeff Hedback. Bingo. Problem solved, money saved, satisfaction insured.
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 16:05:23 GMT -6
... blowing high density closed cell foam between the studs on the outer wall and between the studs on disconnected parallel walls will cut down a lot of sound transfer to the outside. For the ceiling, after removing the current one, having a detached ceiling following the roof profile (suspended as much as possible) will cut down on sound transfer through the roof.
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Post by winetree on Oct 25, 2015 16:39:45 GMT -6
I taught Intermediate Recording Techniques and Acoustics at a local college for 5 years. My classroom was a 10 million dollar professionally designed studio and my Acoustic class focused on studio design and construction. I'm in the process of revamping my control room and even though I have helped build 4 studios and I know I have a lot of knowledge in this area, I am going to seek the advice of a professional studio designer. They are professionals and have the experience of building and testing many rooms. Everybody has suggestions. My suggestion is hire the professional designer . Do it once and do it right.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 25, 2015 16:51:30 GMT -6
Is Ethan still around? Would be great to have his input!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,953
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Post by ericn on Oct 25, 2015 17:20:49 GMT -6
All I'm going to add is if you hire a nobody and you want this to in anyway be sound proof make sure they know what they are doing !
Your average GC, electrical drywall, insulation and HVAC contractors don't understand the real wants and needs of a studio build !
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Post by wiz on Oct 25, 2015 17:31:23 GMT -6
tonycamphd hit the nail on the head. Start with standing outside the structure and decide how much noise can come out of it.. neighbours etc. For instance I only track drums and guitar amps here, during about 10am and 4pm Mon to Fri. When my neighbours are at work. Most of the time I do three passes of either and thats it for the day. This way I never get in the shit with anyone... a noise complaint here in Oz can kill you real fast with local councils... SOUNDPROOFING is what costs money. The construction of the SOUNDPROOFING is critical, as ericn said, it has to be done by someone who has experience, otherwise it can be screwed real fast by bad construcion. You (I) can turn virtually any room into a workable (note I said workable) sounding room to record music in. Budget, and soundproofing requirements are the defining aspects. Everything else is secondary. If you have a bigger budget, get someone in like the guys suggest. Also, it depends on what the structure needs to be if and when you move out of the house. I always keep mine so that they can be turned back into a normal room within a few hours (remove the trapping, patch and paint the anchor holes and you would not know it was a studio) cheers Wiz Also, one last question Don... do you want to get involved with the DIY side yourself? e.g. building traps shooting the room etc .. or not really into that stuff?
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Post by donr on Oct 25, 2015 19:37:25 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the input so far. My prime noise-in consideration is being near the landing approach for BWI airport. I likely wouldn't annoy neighbors with my noise, I've got a good buffer.
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 19:52:13 GMT -6
I mentioned blocking transfer of sound to the outside, because that's the way I think in my location, but it'll work both ways. Other than keeping track of flight schedules and all of the preventive measures mentioned, one better way for your scenario is a concrete bunker above or below ground. Or building with block with outer stone/brick and going with a sod/gravel & tar/ concrete roof. Man, an airport requires extreme measures.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 25, 2015 20:39:10 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts after thinking awhile... I'm guessing the structure is stick frame and the diagram showing parallel interior walls are proposed? If that's the plan then there needs to be a disconnect between them and the outer walls so sound isn't conducted from one to the other. Possibly float the interior wall on rubber (maybe high density, but softer will do the job). I would avoid fabric on the ceiling if the floor is concrete, because it may cause higher than normal humidity if void of vapor barriers, thus mold may grow on organic coverings. I would suggest blowing in closed cell foam between the rafters and covering with some sort of inert/non-organic ceiling tiles, or treated to resist mold growth. if you have a level of moisture coming through a slab that can cause mold? you have bigger issues and shouldn't dare build a studio in the space, if the place is built to code it's not even a consideration, of course you need a qualified contractor to install the project and adhere to codes, a fabric over open faced down/vapor barrier to sheathing is about the best room sound possible due to the effect of "lifting" the ceiling, closed cell foam is useless to absorbing sound, and ceiling tiles reflect down and shrink the room, it's something i would never do on a ceiling, especially a low ceiling, it will result in a room with a hooded/boxy sound almost certainly.
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 20:52:04 GMT -6
Well, there's a lot of factors. Unaware of the construction at hand, mentioning moisture from an open slab is calling attention to some shoddy construction practices that "some" contractors live by, especially in past decades. Even if he decides to go with a specialized contractor, having foreknowledge of many variables will help insure he gets what's needed. Anyone can hire better than the average person when studying the principals and having the understanding up front.
I mention ceiling tiles as a general term, 'cause this can be tailored to the audio treatment task at hand, and not a Lowe's shopping item, necessarily.
EDIT: Closed cell foam is not for absorbing sound. It's behind the surface treatment.
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Post by svart on Oct 25, 2015 21:31:04 GMT -6
Visit John Sayer's forum. That's probably the one place with every piece of acoustical design knowledge written down on the internet.
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Post by wiz on Oct 25, 2015 22:37:36 GMT -6
Visit John Sayer's forum. That's probably the one place with every piece of acoustical design knowledge written down on the internet. He is a smart guy.. and has great designs for the garage conversion thing.. cheers Wiz
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Post by b1 on Oct 25, 2015 22:50:55 GMT -6
Well, it's not rocket science, but it's more than a mere garage conversion. That would be a piece of cake compared to dealing with aircraft traffic. It'll probably require mass and/or layering depending on how severe it is. It's not outside of the realm of possibility, but I've never witnessed it nor do I know how far from the tarmac or how high the traffic. Something to think a little further about, for sure.
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Post by donr on Oct 26, 2015 7:15:52 GMT -6
To give you all a better picture, the aircraft look to be about 2-3000ft when they pass, they're not that loud but you do hear them. I think I will build floating walls at least, with a decoupled ceiling to knock down noise transmission. The slab and the building are dry to my knowledge, no evidence of historical moisture problem.
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Post by gouge on Oct 26, 2015 7:26:57 GMT -6
a couple of things.
the first step with any project like you are undertaking is to measure the ambient noise levels inside the building and outside the building at hour intervals throughout the day. otherwise you won't know what you need to achieve, how to design it and how to build.
granted there are published noise levels that you can get from literature to base designs on but when you throw into the mix overhead aircraft so many factors can influence the ambient noise levels. wind direction and topography being 2 big factors.
you should also decide what level of internal ambient noise you are aiming for. what noise criterion are you aiming for.
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Post by gouge on Oct 26, 2015 7:34:25 GMT -6
another thing to consider.
asbestos?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 26, 2015 7:48:39 GMT -6
I live about 5 miles from CVG Airport. Flight paths are sometimes directly over my house depending on wind. Seldom do I have a problem with noise in my basement studio but I have heard them on takes before.
Looking at your drawing, Don, if you're going to add interior walls or rearrange them in any way, I'd recommend taking the corners off 90's and rounding them with new walls. I e always wanted to do this myself but just can't bring myself to start over. If I were going from scratch that's exactly what I'd do though.
And as others have said, raise the ceilings.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 26, 2015 8:07:06 GMT -6
This is a good book on studio design, by Rod Gervais. www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/143545717XReading it made me realize I should hire a professional for my new studio..... so I went with Wes Lachot: www.weslachot.com/ . Very smart guy, easy to work with, and does really outstanding work.... and all ranges of projects. For my previous rooms, I used GIK acoustics.... their lead acoustic designer Bryan Pape helped me a lot with getting things set up. They do a pretty thorough free consultation if you're planning on using their products (which are great btw).
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Post by schmalzy on Oct 26, 2015 8:26:36 GMT -6
For my previous rooms, I used GIK acoustics.... their lead acoustic designer Bryan Pape helped me a lot with getting things set up. They do a pretty thorough free consultation if you're planning on using their products (which are great btw). I also dig GIK's stuff and Bryan was SUPER helpful for me. I was basically in the middle of trying to improve my room. I called those guys on the phone and wanted to ask some details on a product of theirs. The details were a little outside what would be on the spec sheet so they asked if I wanted to talk to their head designer. Of course I wanted to talk to him. They forwarded me to Bryan and he gave me a bunch of ideas to help my room (including suggesting a non-conventional-wisdom sort of solution for one of my problems) and told me how to best rearrange some of my existing pieces to get better performance out of them. Then I bought a couple GIK 244 bass traps - a product Bryan suggested after I said I didn't want to DIY my clouds and we determined some more bass trapping was in order. Those 2'X4' panels seem to be so damn effective. It makes me annoyed that I even spent a bunch of time and money building something like 60 sq ft. of bass trapping (plus a bunch of broadband absorption) for my room in the first place rather than just getting their stuff. The panels seem to work really well, are reasonably priced, and look great. www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/I know I'm just sounding like a GIK employee now, but they REALLY helped me before I even mentioned buying one of their products. I'd recommend that company to anyone in a small-to-medium-sized (only because I don't know what they would do for a large studio) looking for good acoustics solutions.
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