|
|
Post by sozocaps on Sept 23, 2013 17:12:15 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 23, 2013 18:04:36 GMT -6
Very interesting indeed, thanks for posting sozocaps. I wonder, does Logic use floating point, or is it just like Pro Tools?
I've often wondered about why certain band's albums bug me. When I hear say.. a Foo Fighters CD, I know it's being crushed to death, but that said, I've always heard some other kind of distortion, but didn't have the understanding of the way the sound was processed to express what I was hearing. I hear it on Bruce Springsteen's Radio Nowhere too. Perhaps it was this all along.
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Sept 23, 2013 18:15:13 GMT -6
Is LE the same as HD as far as this distortion issue ?
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Sept 23, 2013 18:38:15 GMT -6
Is this video just talking about when you run too hot a signal into a plugin and clip it ?
|
|
|
|
Post by levon on Sept 23, 2013 23:59:24 GMT -6
Very interesting indeed, thanks for posting sozocaps. I wonder, does Logic use floating point, or is it just like Pro Tools? I've often wondered about why certain band's albums bug me. When I hear say.. a Foo Fighters CD, I know it's being crushed to death, but that said, I've always heard some other kind of distortion, but didn't have the understanding of the way the sound was processed to express what I was hearing. I hear it on Bruce Springsteen's Radio Nowhere too. Perhaps it was this all along. It seems Logic Pro uses floating point. Here's an interesting link. On that thread, there's also a posting by Lagerfeldt with a link to another thread where you can download his guide to levels in digital audio. Worth reading! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 1:12:45 GMT -6
Yep. It's astonishing how much digital clipping we are used to listen to nowadays. Tube clipping, transistor clipping, ehem, digital clipping. Loudness wars demanded for it...sigh. It sure has a distinct sound of distortion in the high end and i heard of record labels that even refused to accept masters that do not have a certain amount of it - even when the mix didn't have it. Now almost all DAWs can do it without clipping and producers, labels, the customer demands for it.  A generation later, people will have nostalgic talks about the wonderful sounds of the old MP3 conversion artifacts and have plugins that will simulate it.......(hm. No LOL here...) |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 24, 2013 7:23:17 GMT -6
Just another reason I've always stayed away from protools, even in the face of so many people asking if my studio uses "ProTools" as if it were the only reason to go to a studio..
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2013 8:06:30 GMT -6
Do people not know how to gain stage?
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 24, 2013 9:12:51 GMT -6
I find I'm liking Logic X more and more these days. I've never used Pro Tools, and will eventually, but for now, I'm glad I don't have to go there. It seems it's always something with Pro Tools.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Sept 24, 2013 9:18:26 GMT -6
Agreed with JK! Seriously, Is it protools job to protect dumb asses from themselves? if someone can't hear the train crashing in that youtube video and conclude it sounds bad, even at the earliest stage, and then set proper gain to get rid of it, then it's time to try a new sport for god sake!
It certainly does exist, but it's already been proven in studies that people shut music off that has digital clipping, quicker than if it didn't have any at all.(don't know where i read that study, but i did read it), as converters and hi end electronic designs become cheaper and more available(which they always do), the slow trickle of free market competition, "our product is slightly better than their product", will catch up with better mixes and render mp3's, digital clipping, and the loudness wars a wart on the ass of audio history, especially if a loudness standard such as R128 is adopted.
JMO
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 24, 2013 10:07:43 GMT -6
As in the other A/D thread a while ago, this is about INTERNAL processing overhead.
In internal processing you have two distinct issues going on in DAWs..
1. Intersample peaks and peaks that do not show due to meter lag and such. These are peaks WILL clip even if the meter doesn't tell you that a clip happened. Multiply this by however many tracks you have and now you have serious distortion lurking in the mix.
2. Bit truncation. The more tracks you have, the more math you have to do when doing things to them. If your math ends up with a number larger than your processing bitrate, then whatever is left will be cut off. Gone. Poof. Loss of bit fidelity and possible distortion if the processing isn't designed elegantly enough to deal with this. Larger bit widths mean you can do more math on the audio stream before truncating.
Neither of these things have much to do with gain staging per se because "gain" means nothing to numbers and math. The "level" inside your DAW is just a number while the GUI makes numbers look like real-world things we can understand. Turning up the "gain/volume" in your DAW is just doing more multiplication and therefor making bigger numbers.
I think the video should have explained this better because it's definitely confusing if you aren't used to dealing with these things.
What the video attempts to say is that protools has no headroom because it's bit scale tops out at 0Db in real world terms. Nuendo not only has a lot more bit depth, but it's bit-scale also aligns to a higher headroom.
I guess in layman's terms, Protool's room is only 8ft high and you are standing on the floor. Nuendo's room is 12ft high and you are standing on a 2ft stool. Make sense?
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 24, 2013 10:38:46 GMT -6
scvart, where does Logic fit in that room? Or is it another room completely..
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 24, 2013 11:19:01 GMT -6
MJB, I don't know. It's pretty much just a swag at explaining what the video attempted to show. I'd say it's probably more like Nuendo.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Sept 24, 2013 11:39:11 GMT -6
no, not really, if you can't hear clipping, you have bigger problems. pro tools 11 is 64bit, and PT has been 32bit floating point for a while now. I don't give a rats ass what platform anyone uses, if you can't make a clip free recording, then  It's just common sense. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2013 13:53:44 GMT -6
I'm using PT10...so, oh well...
|
|
|
|
Post by levon on Sept 25, 2013 1:29:45 GMT -6
Do people not know how to gain stage? No, they don't. And a DAW doesn't make it easier, level metering in any DAW is terrible. I wish Logic (or any other DAW, I just happen to use Logic) would give you the option to switch the metering to analog levels, i.e. 0 dB analog equals 0 db in digital, not -18 dB. The indicators would be easier to read and one wouldn't be nervous at having levels so low on your meter. (I grew up in the the days of tape when you aimed to record as hot as possible) Again, Lagerfeldt's guide is well worth reading: www.popmusic.dk/download/pdf/levels-in-digital-audio.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 25, 2013 7:55:34 GMT -6
I'll read that later, thanks for the link Levon. I use Logic too. I'm slowly adapting to Logic X, I think it's sounds a little clearer, but that could be my imagination, but I doubt it.
So, essentially, what level do you try for on your mix, before mastering? I also faux master sometimes, using Slate's VBC, UAD's Ampeg ATR-102, and Slate's FG-X, what level do you like for that signal path? Just curious, my demos sound pretty good at the moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Sept 25, 2013 10:28:02 GMT -6
I'll read that later, thanks for the link Levon. I use Logic too. I'm slowly adapting to Logic X, I think it's sounds a little clearer, but that could be my imagination, but I doubt it. So, essentially, what level do you try for on your mix, before mastering? I also faux master sometimes, using Slate's VBC, UAD's Ampeg ATR-102, and Slate's FG-X, what level do you like for that signal path? Just curious, my demos sound pretty good at the moment. Theres that GIANT thread on GS , "The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes" www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/463010-reason-most-itb-mixes-don-t-sound-good-analog-mixes-restored.htmlThe whole point was run all your levels , into each plugin , at -18 . |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 25, 2013 16:26:23 GMT -6
Will pay more attention and try that next time I'm tracking scumbum, thanks.
I think I read some of that thread and eventually gave up on it. Cowboy said the same basic thing a year ago, and I followed his suggestion. I did need a reminder though, I haven't tracked much lately, just working and a little mixing. Was trying to cobble together a pedal steel part from 5 different takes today.
|
|
It's just common sense.