|
Post by Guitar on Sept 1, 2015 11:35:48 GMT -6
My entire (hardware) compression collection is made up of 8 units that were all $200 or sometimes considerably less. Half stereo, half single channel.
I've got a modified Alesis 3630, a modified Behringer Composer MDX2100, a Symetrix 501 with better op amps (picked the best out of 3 units from different eras). Three DBX 560A in the 500 rack, these are brand new to me. An old DBX 166A, and an un-modded Behringer Autocom Pro MDX 1400 that I've barely used.
I used to have an ART VLA and some FMR which I sold mainly due to build quality issues, and some 160Xs which I probably should have kept. And the two 501s that I liked less than the one I'm keeping (one very old, one much newer).
I have parts ready to start some serious DIY. It's going to probably be a Serpent SB4000 SSL style bus compressor, a dual silent:arts LA2A, several 1176, and the dual Serpent LA3A. I'm also probably going to build Jeff Steiger's FC526 FET Limiter.
I'm wondering for all you compression experts if you think the DIY will just totally slay and replace all my cheap VCA stuff, or if you still use stuff like that, or if you would just stick to UAD and Waves plugins or whatever. Or something versatile like FabFilter Pro-C, or the Klanghelm MJUC (which I might buy today), etc.
Generally what are your thoughts on cheap hardware compressors in a world that includes high end compression and ITB compression? It's all I've ever known next to ITB. I'm also trying to get hyped up for the big push of getting this DIY high end stuff into the game.
My cheap hardware stuff has given me a definite vibe on a lot of my productions. But I have also happily done full ITB mixes with software compression. The hardware seems to have more of a movement or vibe to it in general, more of an instant character. A color if you will.
I had to buy the 3630, 160 (560), and the Behringer stuff due to their legendary sort of infamy. It's been a cool experience getting to know them a bit. Also as you might be aware these types of units have been used on very famous and infamous albums that have gone down in history.
As far as a review of sorts, these compressors all have very different character, despite being generally VCA based.
Anyway this is too long of a question so what do you think about cheap compressors and mixing out of the box or hybrid with them? Or how they hold up next to the expensive stuff?
|
|
|
Post by mobeach on Sept 1, 2015 16:19:43 GMT -6
I use a stock Alesis 3630 but only with my bass rig. I've been using it for several years with no issues.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 1, 2015 16:26:26 GMT -6
I use a stock Alesis 3630 but only with my bass rig. I've been using it for several years with no issues. That seems to be a common use for them, they seem to be pretty utilitarian and used by people for any and all compression purposes. They don't seem to make too many studio gear lists though outside of Daft Punk.
|
|
|
Post by mobeach on Sept 1, 2015 16:34:41 GMT -6
I get such a great punchy low end growl out of my Gallien Krueger with it, I wouldn't get a better one even if I could afford it.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 1, 2015 16:37:21 GMT -6
That's cool. Billy Corgan used them in his guitar rig on Mellon Collie and the live shows around then. I think low end growl is a good characterization of the 3630 sound, really. The Daft Punk comparison you could use the same adjectives. So yeah it's sort of a landmark sound for me, even though it's super cheap, and even though I usually mix ITB.
|
|
|
Post by mobeach on Sept 1, 2015 16:45:41 GMT -6
GK amps have a growl of their own, the 3630 kinda enhances that.
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Sept 1, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -6
Used to use my brothers Alesis 3632 - it was fun for smashing things, but I don't think I was ever very interested in buying it off him. Though I did want to try out the Billy Corgan trick...
Actually just tacking an RNC onto my Thomann order now, mostly planning just to use it to shave a few dB off of Vox, Bass or Ac. Guitar when I'm recording. I've heard it enough and heard enough people speak well of it that I think it'll be worth having. I'm happy enough with my selection of software comps, but if it saves me running a few plugins come mix time I'll be all the happier.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,957
|
Post by ericn on Sept 1, 2015 17:24:42 GMT -6
RNC's and DBX 160a's in the same rack as ADL1000s and WA76! If it works and the price is right I'll buy it!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 2, 2015 7:11:06 GMT -6
Used to use my brothers Alesis 3632 - it was fun for smashing things, but I don't think I was ever very interested in buying it off him. Though I did want to try out the Billy Corgan trick... Actually just tacking an RNC onto my Thomann order now, mostly planning just to use it to shave a few dB off of Vox, Bass or Ac. Guitar when I'm recording. I've heard it enough and heard enough people speak well of it that I think it'll be worth having. I'm happy enough with my selection of software comps, but if it saves me running a few plugins come mix time I'll be all the happier. Thanks for the reply Jazznoise, that's really cool. Let me know how it goes. I don't even think I've ever attempted tracking compression a single time in the history of my recording career, so I'd be interested in feedback from people who like doing it. I was thinking about using my 560A and Composer to do this but I just never seem to get it set up and just end up tracking clean. Stuck in a habit or something. My suspicion is that on highly dynamic sources like vocals or sometimes bass, or acoustic guitar like you said, a slightly flatter waveform would be very welcome in the DAW project to start off with, so I can see the appeal. I can also see the appeal of using mojo-having gear on the front end for a tone boost, but I haven't built that gear yet.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 2, 2015 7:29:30 GMT -6
The cheap units work.
There, I said it. The behringers and the alesis compressors work OK. Sometimes a little noisy, and mostly generic sounding but they work just fine.
However, they work as compressors. I've used them a bunch over the years when I've needed to level things out.
The big difference here is that MOST mix engineers don't use compressors as automatic level controls all that much, they use them as effects. Level control comes from the player and automation. If the player can't play consistently, then try automation. If that doesn't work, then a compressor/limiter probably wouldn't work anyway..
I use my 1176 with slow attacks and fast releases to get the quick transient pump for spanking snares and stuff. I use my 33609 for the fast attack that grabs the drum bus and turns it into a big gelling monster with character. I use my SSL bus compressor with slow attack and fast release to give the whole mix a little of that rounded fatness.
Only with the LA2A do I feel like I can track with it, since it's nice and slow and doesn't really change the nature of the attacks, just mainly the very slow volume changes. I do this mostly on vocals because it gives them a little more body and a tiny bit of grain which helps them poke out of the mix a bit.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 2, 2015 11:07:43 GMT -6
I feel the same way, svart. That is why a compressor like the RNC from FMR was completely useless to me, along with the Aphex 651 Expressor. Clean level control can be done other ways, or in the DAW even cleaner. I couldn't really put a finger on why they were useless to me but I think you nailed it. I use compressors for a sound, or effect, like you said. Especially when I go out of the box I want things to have a sound. Otherwise it would have been much easier to stay 100% digital and go on from there.
I know Jim Williams' super-custom clean analog studio completely turns this idea on its head, I just don't work like that. Clean is usually not my goal, so I only have a few pieces dedicated to that purpose. I work mostly in the rock and roll and electronic genres, so a bit of tone is a common thing to expect there. As I fantasize about recording classical halls, and acoustic ensembles, or dipping my toes in mastering, my mind starts to drift to esoteric super low THD+N kind of gear. That's just not what I'm involved with right now. A little THD goes a long way for me.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Sept 2, 2015 11:35:33 GMT -6
From another angle, I have some hardware compressors that are cleaner and better sounding than any plug I have. I don't really invest in plugs, so there's that also. They strike me as a big scam, vaporware likely to vanish at the next computer upgrade cycle, a weird version of old school ownership. Anyway, veered right off topic into the ditch.....
The primary thing I've noticed as my hardware comps have 'upgraded' over time is the ability to do abusive things that still sound relatively transparent or 'even better' when you notice GR is unexpectedly pushing 15-20dB. I remember (and experience in the field) the lesser comps having definite ranges at which the sound kinda fell apart in a negative way. As well, the higher end stuff can sound good in the threshold zone, with invisible action going from none to 1/2dB GR, and almost all the lesser units impart a transition sound in that same zone, that transition fingerprint being enough to make me say 'fuck it, that sounds worse'. Plenty of plugs have that problem too.
If a 'lesser' unit does a thing you like, that's all that matters.
Consider almost all antique compressors would be considered 'lesser' by someone out there.
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Sept 2, 2015 11:56:11 GMT -6
The idea of having comps on the front-end for me is time saving and, from a clients perspective, a closer to finished feel by the end of the day and more commitments made. If we go with a cool compressed acoustic guitar sound, something really Beatles-y, I just want it there and done and I don't want to fuck with it ever again. Currently I'm doing that by bouncing things or running to the little bit of outboard I have - amps, a TC reverb, some nice delays. I'd like to further with that is my main goal.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 2, 2015 12:04:29 GMT -6
I'm fine with all kinds of opinions on audio, I think they are all valid in their own way when you really get to the bottom of it. I guess you could say engineers and musicians are known to be opinionated anyway.
I think your observation is spot on about behavior under heavy GR. I had to get rid of a few things that did that really badly, like the ART Pro VLA II. That thing was an eyesore, too. The Waves Limiters also seem to be sort of poor at this. But you can actually take advantage of that and use it for a saturated sound.
I also like the idea of just using what works for you and what you like, to the point of completely dismissing popular opinion and getting things done the right way.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 2, 2015 12:05:45 GMT -6
The idea of having comps on the front-end for me is time saving and, from a clients perspective, a closer to finished feel by the end of the day and more commitments made. If we go with a cool compressed acoustic guitar sound, something really Beatles-y, I just want it there and done and I don't want to fuck with it ever again. Currently I'm doing that by bouncing things or running to the little bit of outboard I have - amps, a TC reverb, some nice delays. I'd like to further with that is my main goal. Jazznoise this is my line of thought as well. The more commitments I can make in tracking, and the more generally hybrid I can get my workflow, probably the more I can maximize the considerable resources that I have sitting here around me, and probably end up with higher quality results. That is a goal I'm working toward as well.
|
|
|
Post by drumrec on Sept 2, 2015 14:49:02 GMT -6
This animal I bought at an auction for not too many $$$$. I think you guys know more about it on the other side of the Atlantic. The little I know, it used on radio stations. I use it often with a mono mic and squeeze out a little bit dirty. Love it and I guess it does not cost so many dollars. www.facebook.com/DRUMREC/videos/10153529821300390/?l=4118450253724613672
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 2, 2015 14:59:48 GMT -6
In 90 % of the cases I love to use the mdx 1000 on electric guitars.
EDIT: Who is not owning the Klanghelm must be mad.....
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Sept 2, 2015 15:06:50 GMT -6
This animal I bought at an auction for not too many $$$$. I think you guys know more about it on the other side of the Atlantic. The little I know, it used on radio stations. I use it often with a mono mic and squeeze out a little bit dirty. Love it and I guess it does not cost so many dollars. www.facebook.com/DRUMREC/videos/10153529821300390/?l=4118450253724613672Very nice. Yes, these FM limiters are popular with some. I believe David Friedmann used them for The Flaming Lips drum sound on The Soft Bulletin? I'd fancy a few of those but I dread the electricity bill! Dare I ask how much it was?
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Sept 2, 2015 15:27:41 GMT -6
Those Solid Statesman definitely have a sound that can be cool. You would reach for that piece when you want 'a sound'. OTOH, I always tried them out, then sold them on, they never found a pace in my workflow. I kept Thompson Volumax units for a long time, they have a cool 'sound', also let them go eventually. I did keep Allison Research Gain Brains, though I can't say the last time I used them. Marti CLA-40's are the pumpiest most touchy opto comps I've ever heard. Definitely have a sound, never kept one. All these things can be useful and wouldn't stop you from making a record! My fetish has gone to ancient tube stuff, so there are still four pretty obscure tube comps around here, and original iron to recreate the SA-39's and 26U's I sold on once they got 'too expensive to keep'.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,957
|
Post by ericn on Sept 2, 2015 16:52:30 GMT -6
Might grab an Ashley SC50 from a pawn shop, just cause, I remember hating it as bus comp on live gigs,but what I hated about it back then in that roll might make for a fun comp on electric guitars or some voices.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 2, 2015 17:44:38 GMT -6
Might grab an Ashley SC50 from a pawn shop, just cause, I remember hating it as bus comp on live gigs,but what I hated about it back then in that roll might make for a fun comp on electric guitars or some voices. That's funny, I thought I hated the DBX stuff for a while, sold it, then years later found myself trying all the 160 plugins I could find. Then I decided to get some hardware back again. Luckily enough Sweetwater is blowing them out. It's a funny cycle of mood and taste, selling things, regretting it or not. I can't believe how much gear I've gone through at this point.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Sept 2, 2015 21:46:36 GMT -6
In short. Not anymore. I used to have racks of specialized coloring crayons, some of which were compressors. I was hybrid before that had a name. Going the other way. Clean. Crystal. Because I turn on modern recordings and just hear this heap of filth all over everything. I want pop/rock music produced like modern jazz is....clean and rich and open.
|
|
|
Post by tasteliketape on Sept 2, 2015 21:55:37 GMT -6
dbx 118 an dbx119 here using one or the other as a parallel comp works great on a lot of mixes
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2015 22:16:31 GMT -6
In short. Not anymore. I used to have racks of specialized coloring crayons, some of which were compressors. I was hybrid before that had a name. Going the other way. Clean. Crystal. Because I turn on modern recordings and just hear this heap of filth all over everything. I want pop/rock music produced like modern jazz is....clean and rich and open. I'm kinda coming out as clean too. Be proud be loud.
|
|
|
Post by robschnapf on Sept 3, 2015 9:43:21 GMT -6
I'm not a hater but I hate the 3630. I had one from the beginning when they first came out. Never thought they were pro, whatever that means. Just seemed like mush to me. Had that thing for 10 years. I don't care who used it in there rig. I didn't like it. Sold, never looking back
|
|