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Post by noah shain on Jul 9, 2015 14:39:41 GMT -6
Anyone used one? Lots of chips but lots of routing options and true in-line, great features, EQ on all inputs, group faders, etc. it's a lot of console for the $$. If it sounds good I'd be looking to sell my 1608 and get into a 32 channel. What say you gents? Am I crazy?
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jul 9, 2015 14:56:23 GMT -6
Also interested in this console, but I haven't seen anyone on RGO talking about it before. Too new?
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Post by rickcarson on Jul 10, 2015 8:38:04 GMT -6
Not that I have heard of yet
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2015 20:12:59 GMT -6
Haven't heard it either...Although, you'd have to have it for a while to make a real judgement I would guess. Does anyone know the quality of Trident these days? I thought those A Series repro's looked pretty cheap.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 11, 2015 15:39:39 GMT -6
Anyone used one? Lots of chips but lots of routing options and true in-line, great features, EQ on all inputs, group faders, etc. it's a lot of console for the $$. If it sounds good I'd be looking to sell my 1608 and get into a 32 channel. What say you gents? Am I crazy? So I went over to their booth at NAMM today just for you brother  The EQ's honestly man, they didn't impress me, I have to say it, I wasn't impressed. The look of the console is great, meters have a nice warm glow, knobs feel good and sturdy, but, when I was sweeping around with the EQ I just didn't get a "whoa, that was nice" it felt more like a Mackie or something. Now, that's an extremely limited test drive man, you're seasoned enough to know it'd take a solid month to really get a feel for a console because of how it handles summing and it's crosstalk and such, but eq wise, I think I should've been more impressed for something like a Trident. I used to work with some guys in Atlanta back in the days of Atlantic and they used a vintage one and the EQ didn't feel anything like the new one, the new one just didn't seem to have any grab to it, like it was sort of flat. You do the rock thing, I'd think you'd want something aggressive in the mid-range with a fat bottom, didn't get that sense. Of course, I have to throw that caveat out there that I wasn't running a mix on it and it was through headphones so TIFWIW. But, I did want to check it out for ya bro. ~Jerome |
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Post by BradM on Jul 11, 2015 19:16:59 GMT -6
Hi Noah,
I know some of the design team so if you have any specific questions about features or what's under the hood I'd be happy to pass along some questions and report back.
I believe this console is fully modular so it would not be hard to mod the EQ if you wanted it to do something slightly different. I was watching the videos on the Trident website and supposedly the EQ design is the 80C circuit.
I don't think you are crazy for considering making a switch. Workflow can often trump sonics. What would you be hoping to get out of this console that you feel you are lacking with the API?
Brad
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Post by noah shain on Jul 11, 2015 20:08:38 GMT -6
Anyone used one? Lots of chips but lots of routing options and true in-line, great features, EQ on all inputs, group faders, etc. it's a lot of console for the $$. If it sounds good I'd be looking to sell my 1608 and get into a 32 channel. What say you gents? Am I crazy? So I went over to their booth at NAMM today just for you brother The EQ's honestly man, they didn't impress me, I have to say it, I wasn't impressed. The look of the console is great, meters have a nice warm glow, knobs feel good and sturdy, but, when I was sweeping around with the EQ I just didn't get a "whoa, that was nice" it felt more like a Mackie or something. Now, that's an extremely limited test drive man, you're seasoned enough to know it'd take a solid month to really get a feel for a console because of how it handles summing and it's crosstalk and such, but eq wise, I think I should've been more impressed for something like a Trident. I used to work with some guys in Atlanta back in the days of Atlantic and they used a vintage one and the EQ didn't feel anything like the new one, the new one just didn't seem to have any grab to it, like it was sort of flat. You do the rock thing, I'd think you'd want something aggressive in the mid-range with a fat bottom, didn't get that sense. Of course, I have to throw that caveat out there that I wasn't running a mix on it and it was through headphones so TIFWIW. But, I did want to check it out for ya bro. ~Jerome Thank you Jerome. You're the dude!! |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 11, 2015 20:14:55 GMT -6
Hi Noah, I know some of the design team so if you have any specific questions about features or what's under the hood I'd be happy to pass along some questions and report back. I believe this console is fully modular so it would not be hard to mod the EQ if you wanted it to do something slightly different. I was watching the videos on the Trident website and supposedly the EQ design is the 80C circuit. I don't think you are crazy for considering making a switch. Workflow can often trump sonics. What would you be hoping to get out of this console that you feel you are lacking with the API? Brad Thanks Brad. Higher input count at mix down, group faders, eq on every input and enough $$ left over to add the automation package when/if it's ready. That's it. With the 1608 I am using other summing mixers and landing those on the console. And the board was so expensive I couldn't afford the automation. Also, the group faders are on tiny knobs that are tricky to get right and no group inserts. That's really about it. I'm hesitant because the 1608 is such a beast sonically as well as a prestige piece. People seem to like knowing its an API in the control room and man...it's good sounding. |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 12, 2015 21:43:00 GMT -6
I should also mention that the diyre color stuff has me wondering if I don't WANT some ICs in my signal path...
I'm constantly on the hunt for sexy sounding distortion/saturation. I hit a LOT of transistors and transformers because I think that's the way to get it but so many records I love the sound of were recorded with multiple devices that utilize chips.
I wonder if I could get some of that kind of saturation with a chip based console.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2015 22:00:21 GMT -6
I should also mention that the diyre color stuff has me wondering if I don't WANT some ICs in my signal path... I'm constantly on the hunt for sexy sounding distortion/saturation. I hit a LOT of transistors and transformers because I think that's the way to get it but so many records I love the sound of were recorded with multiple devices that utilize chips. I wonder if I could get some of that kind of saturation with a chip based console. You will find some but remember the thing you like about the color modules is the chips are used in a design that maximizes their saturation and distortion charictor land potential |
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 12, 2015 23:18:03 GMT -6
I should also mention that the diyre color stuff has me wondering if I don't WANT some ICs in my signal path... I'm constantly on the hunt for sexy sounding distortion/saturation. I hit a LOT of transistors and transformers because I think that's the way to get it but so many records I love the sound of were recorded with multiple devices that utilize chips. I wonder if I could get some of that kind of saturation with a chip based console. Yeah brother, walk lightly there. Some IC's can be set up to clip and the circuit around them smooth out what sounds basically like shit. It's like a TS808, if you clip a JRC4558 with nothing but signal and take a direct feed off the output leg it would sound gawd awful. Having designed my own pedal that was inspired by the TS I can tell you I did a lot of filtering and transistor trials until I got what I wanted. I'd beg of you to somehow test drive this console for a while before making such a decision bro, there is no telling how that console is going to handle the type of music you're doing, and also what the buss would sound like overdriven, or within the chips max swing. Some chips do clip very differently, this is one of those times that being where you are now, and dealing with who you deal with now, you really need to give a dealer a call and tell them you want to give it a trial run, even if it means opening a line of credit with them so you don't have to ditch your board. I feel like you're not going to dig those eq's... I used to do the rock thing exclusively and I really don't know if that eq is going to be what you're looking for man. ~ Jerome |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 12, 2015 23:33:16 GMT -6
I should also mention that the diyre color stuff has me wondering if I don't WANT some ICs in my signal path... I'm constantly on the hunt for sexy sounding distortion/saturation. I hit a LOT of transistors and transformers because I think that's the way to get it but so many records I love the sound of were recorded with multiple devices that utilize chips. I wonder if I could get some of that kind of saturation with a chip based console. Yeah brother, walk lightly there. Some IC's can be set up to clip and the circuit around them smooth out what sounds basically like shit. It's like a TS808, if you clip a JRC4558 with nothing but signal and take a direct feed off the output leg it would sound gawd awful. Having designed my own pedal that was inspired by the TS I can tell you I did a lot of filtering and transistor trials until I got what I wanted. I'd beg of you to somehow test drive this console for a while before making such a decision bro, there is no telling how that console is going to handle the type of music you're doing, and also what the buss would sound like overdriven, or within the chips max swing. Some chips do clip very differently, this is one of those times that being where you are now, and dealing with who you deal with now, you really need to give a dealer a call and tell them you want to give it a trial run, even if it means opening a line of credit with them so you don't have to ditch your board. I feel like you're not going to dig those eq's... I used to do the rock thing exclusively and I really don't know if that eq is going to be what you're looking for man. ~ Jerome I appreciate your upfront input here. It would be hard to let go of a 1608 for ANY console... I'm throwing the idea out here almost hoping I get talked out of it. The idea that 16 more channels and automation is gonna cost me upwards of 40 grand is gnarly though. It took me a decade to get the rig I have now and it could be a while before I get to 32 automated API channels. With the trident I could get there in a couple weeks. That's really what is driving the idea. And it's just an idea. I know it's a little nutty to trade the 1608 away for anything. It's so well built, problem free, sexy as heck and beautiful sounding. But 32 automated channels is tempting. I'm not teetering on the edge of this decision, I'm really only turning it over in my head. I'd probably regret it... |
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Post by keymod on Jul 13, 2015 4:12:32 GMT -6
Why not look into a couple of API 8200/A on the used market? Sixteen channels probably run somewhere around three grand. Then get two Greiner Engineering Summation units for five grand. You'll have your 32 API channels, along with automation, for under ten grand.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 13, 2015 6:54:58 GMT -6
Yeah brother, walk lightly there. Some IC's can be set up to clip and the circuit around them smooth out what sounds basically like shit. It's like a TS808, if you clip a JRC4558 with nothing but signal and take a direct feed off the output leg it would sound gawd awful. Having designed my own pedal that was inspired by the TS I can tell you I did a lot of filtering and transistor trials until I got what I wanted. I'd beg of you to somehow test drive this console for a while before making such a decision bro, there is no telling how that console is going to handle the type of music you're doing, and also what the buss would sound like overdriven, or within the chips max swing. Some chips do clip very differently, this is one of those times that being where you are now, and dealing with who you deal with now, you really need to give a dealer a call and tell them you want to give it a trial run, even if it means opening a line of credit with them so you don't have to ditch your board. I feel like you're not going to dig those eq's... I used to do the rock thing exclusively and I really don't know if that eq is going to be what you're looking for man. ~ Jerome I appreciate your upfront input here. It would be hard to let go of a 1608 for ANY console... I'm throwing the idea out here almost hoping I get talked out of it. The idea that 16 more channels and automation is gonna cost me upwards of 40 grand is gnarly though. It took me a decade to get the rig I have now and it could be a while before I get to 32 automated API channels. With the trident I could get there in a couple weeks. That's really what is driving the idea. And it's just an idea. I know it's a little nutty to trade the 1608 away for anything. It's so well built, problem free, sexy as heck and beautiful sounding. But 32 automated channels is tempting. I'm not teetering on the edge of this decision, I'm really only turning it over in my head. I'd probably regret it... Noah I. Bet one could use API 8200's with some custome cable I g as a side car, my hunch is this is why Larry DCthem limited yes,but cheaper than an expansion! |
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Post by svart on Jul 13, 2015 7:47:47 GMT -6
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.
Lets say your 1608 is full of 2520 opamps.. Which at one point you had folks who considered discrete opamps to be old, slow, hot, and harmonically inferior.
Engineers basically took discrete opamps and matched the transistors, lowered the quiescent currents, gave them a speed boost, and made them cheaper in the form of the IC.
Yes, all IC opamps are the same as discrete opamps, just in a smaller case. There is no magical difference, none whatsoever.
The only actual difference is that humans LIKE distortion. They like slew rate aliasing from slow opamps. They like crossover distortions from poorly matched output transistors on class B opamps like the 2520. They like clipping from opamps that are driven partially into inversion. People like all these things because they cause euphonic distortions.
ALL of which the IC opamp was intended to get rid of, because those were seen as BAD things at a time when folks wanted cleaner and clearer audio from their devices.
Of course, NONE of this means that either console is better than the other.
You'll have plenty of folks who have an opinion about IC's who will try to convince you that they are the devil.
Some of the best consoles of our times are full of IC's that mere mention of their model numbers typically send purists into blinding ranting rages.
It doesn't mean that the IC isn't the better mousetrap, because it IS, of sorts. You'll just have to see if it's the right mousetrap for your mouse.
That being said, the old tridents were full of the TL07x series opamps. Universally hated by audiophools, although the general specs are about 4x better slew rate and 10x better distortion than the 2520 discrete opamp, and most folks who've done blind tests can't tell the difference in practical usage anyway.
The TL07x series suffered from a situation where getting too much signal pulling towards the negative rail would put the opamp into a situation where it would "rail out" and stay at one power rail. Most designers avoided operating these in a situation that would produce this issue, but driving the board hard for distortion might cause this to pop up.
That's if the new tridents use the TL07x parts, which I don't think they do based on some anecdotal evidence I found.
With any kind of situation like this, I'd say that your best bet is to test drive one for a while. Maybe get a smaller(sidecar?) 88 console and see if it's what you hope it to be.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 13, 2015 8:14:37 GMT -6
I'm with the group telling you to test drive it. Those API mic pres and EQ's you have are a signature sound. There's bound to be a Trident in an LA studio. Call the dealer or the studio and work out a financial arrangement to mix one of your songs that you did on your API 1608. Then, compare the mixes. If the sound is not appreciatively worse, or is better, and the workflow is better. You've got your answer. If you're not comparatively happy with the end result, you've got your answer.
Good luck!
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Post by noah shain on Jul 13, 2015 11:12:56 GMT -6
I know you guys are right and I know there's no magic in the chips...just science.
VKLA is gonna set the console up at their spot when it's back from NAMM and I'm gonna go do a mix on it.
Thanks for all your absolutely sound advice.
If anyone gets their ears on an 88 I'd love to hear your experience.
Thanks yall
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Post by BradM on Jul 13, 2015 19:48:40 GMT -6
Noah,
I agree with everyone else telling you to test drive. I think that's the smart decision. I'm looking forward to hearing your report back after you do your demo at VKLA.
For what it's worth I have a clean IC-based console (D&R Vision). I love it. What I've chosen to do to give the console a little more character is to modify the main mix bus with CAPI ACA boards. That put some transformers and 2520's in the main mix signal path. As soon as I get Silver Bullets into production I actually intend to reverse my mod back to the original clean summing bus and instead just insert the Silver Bullet on the main mix...so I can flip between Neve and API style flavors. Modding the master section was not difficult in my console and I suspect due to the modular nature of the Trident 88's design you could do something similar...if you felt like you were missing some of the API vibe.
Brad
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Post by noah shain on Jul 13, 2015 21:22:15 GMT -6
Noah, I agree with everyone else telling you to test drive. I think that's the smart decision. I'm looking forward to hearing your report back after you do your demo at VKLA. For what it's worth I have a clean IC-based console (D&R Vision). I love it. What I've chosen to do to give the console a little more character is to modify the main mix bus with CAPI ACA boards. That put some transformers and 2520's in the main mix signal path. As soon as I get Silver Bullets into production I actually intend to reverse my mod back to the original clean summing bus and instead just insert the Silver Bullet on the main mix...so I can flip between Neve and API style flavors. Modding the master section was not difficult in my console and I suspect due to the modular nature of the Trident 88's design you could do something similar...if you felt like you were missing some of the API vibe. Brad Yep I'll go to VK and push that thing around a bit. I will for sure report back here when I do. Thanks Brad. |
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