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Post by mrholmes on Jul 1, 2015 19:39:09 GMT -6
Evrybody knows I am a big fan of Magic AB because this thing is the best teacher I have had in the past ten years doing AE as a hobyist. To my suprise I find, in Pop Rock, the kick very often replaced by a sample. From Sting to Gary Moore. Thanks to streaming I get the impression it zeroed in with the 80s.
I now ask myself why!
Is it because they wanted to have a super dry kick sound?
Thanks
Cheers Holmes
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Post by Ward on Jul 1, 2015 19:52:25 GMT -6
Sampling is like autotune. A dirty secret that got out! It shows lack of engineering ability for the most part just like AT shows lack of singing ability, for the most part.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 1, 2015 19:54:19 GMT -6
I have never replaced. Aesthetic and budget as reasons. A really crappy drummer/kit who refuses to be helped with tuning, new heads, other drums, etc, might get parallel sample augmentation, rare that I have to go there.
They wanted to be 'competitive'.
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Post by drbill on Jul 1, 2015 20:09:45 GMT -6
I hate drum replacement. I never do it on the drums I record. The only time it might get called into action is if I get something to mix that was horribly recorded. Sometimes there's no choice.... People "do it" because they think they are supposed to. Or because they don't know how to record drums.
But Sting? Really. Got a link to the track. Somehow I can't see Vinnie standing by and having his kick drum replaced.... LOL
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Post by baquin on Jul 1, 2015 20:23:33 GMT -6
I have not done it. I have only been asked to do it once, but refused...it was a deal breaker for them. It seems to be the norm nowadays "yeah, let's not worry about a decent drum recording...it can be replaced in the mix".
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 1, 2015 20:45:39 GMT -6
Are we talking about full replacement or supplementing??? I supplement, if it's tracked really well then of course there's no need to replace it. But, I will say that someone sits there and eq's the shit out of a kick or snare and mangles it to death trying to make it something it's not then you supplement. Tune the sample to whatever the source is, adjust the decay to match the source and then pump that into your ambience send. The goal is to make it natural, ambience helps with that.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 2, 2015 2:32:08 GMT -6
Are we talking about full replacement or supplementing??? I supplement, if it's tracked really well then of course there's no need to replace it. But, I will say that someone sits there and eq's the shit out of a kick or snare and mangles it to death trying to make it something it's not then you supplement. Tune the sample to whatever the source is, adjust the decay to match the source and then pump that into your ambience send. The goal is to make it natural, ambience helps with that. Someone can mangle a real tracked kick-drum in that way that it sounds like a sample?? If this is the case why doing all the work, you could use a sample from scratch. Somone asked about Sting. At least it sounds very similar to my sample replacement on the kick, very dry, no air, no room nothing. Also Dire Straits... no air no nothing on the Kick sonds like a sample to my hobbyist ear. Thats the reason for my question. I mean if someone like Sting hires the best drummer you can get, and you know that the kick is replaced anyway??? |
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 2, 2015 2:37:15 GMT -6
Sampling is like autotune. A dirty secret that got out! It shows lack of engineering ability for the most part just like AT shows lack of singing ability, for the most part. Seems like a lot engineers do it?? To me it sounds more like an artistic reason... bone dry kick please? |
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 2, 2015 3:10:16 GMT -6
A lot do put samples underneath to help out. Most of the time on the tail end of session's you will have hits. Usually you'll get about 3 different ascending hits per piece, a couple of different crashes and if it's in the song a 4-8 bar bell struck ride. What I like to do is use those to make my "helpers." I'll load in a kick sample that I know is exactly what I want it to sound like and I'll eq the helper sample in the session to fall in line with that true and tried sample. Then I'll go through each track and replace any mis hits or ones I don't like with an unprocessed helper (this can also be crashes and the bell ride as well.)
Then, I'll eq the source track to be as best I can make it, load up Trigger and put in the processed helper and start blending until I get a nice realistic and solid sound. After that I'll compress to taste and she's done. Now, if you don't get those sample hits at the end of a session (which if you're the tracking engineer this is always something you should most definitely burn into your memory and do every single song) then you would do what I said earlier, match the decay of the sample and source, and also the tuning. If you want it dry use an SSL type gate set to fast, but raise the range a little so there's still some bleed and movement in there, that'll make it sound more natural.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 2, 2015 6:14:46 GMT -6
A lot do put samples underneath to help out. Most of the time on the tail end of session's you will have hits. Usually you'll get about 3 different ascending hits per piece, a couple of different crashes and if it's in the song a 4-8 bar bell struck ride. What I like to do is use those to make my "helpers." I'll load in a kick sample that I know is exactly what I want it to sound like and I'll eq the helper sample in the session to fall in line with that true and tried sample. Then I'll go through each track and replace any mis hits or ones I don't like with an unprocessed helper (this can also be crashes and the bell ride as well.) Then, I'll eq the source track to be as best I can make it, load up Trigger and put in the processed helper and start blending until I get a nice realistic and solid sound. After that I'll compress to taste and she's done. Now, if you don't get those sample hits at the end of a session (which if you're the tracking engineer this is always something you should most definitely burn into your memory and do every single song) then you would do what I said earlier, match the decay of the sample and source, and also the tuning. If you want it dry use an SSL type gate set to fast, but raise the range a little so there's still some bleed and movement in there, that'll make it sound more natural. Interesting thanks for the hint. |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 2, 2015 7:16:24 GMT -6
The really uber-close mic'd D112 thing can sound like sample replacement because it can feel so completely alien.
I don't like sample replacement as a cosmetic fix. Drum mic'ing is a case of practice and experience, and too many are overinformed by process/ritual and don't apply enough critical listening. The end result is add samples and justify it, then completely fail to reflect on the potential failures of the recording process.
Of course if it's some weird/cool mishmash of drum machine sounds with a kit then that's obviously different. You'll have to use those tools to arrive at it because no snare sounds like a 606 snare, or an 808 handclap.
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Post by Randge on Jul 2, 2015 7:17:53 GMT -6
It's pretty rare that I use samples now, but I do when it fits a certain genres mindset. I too use Trigger and blend to taste.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 2, 2015 7:22:58 GMT -6
A dirty secret that got out! It shows lack of engineering ability for the most part It was such a strong trend that really good engineers used to do it. It was standard operating procedure to tune up a set of drums with new heads, record something like the first five individually struck hits of each drum, and load those recordings into samplers. Then let the drums be used for recording, but put those 5 samples/per into random rotation for replacement. Theory was those first 5 hits 'sounded better' than any following as the drum heads wore. They did the recording, built the samples, did the replacement....like homesteading! But really, WTF....not for me.....and anyone ever had a budget like that? |
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Post by gouge on Jul 2, 2015 7:43:20 GMT -6
I can't be bothered really. it's the miss hits, the ghost notes and the whacky stuff that gives music it's texture and human fingerprint. even phase issues can add to the taste.
I'm not saying record stuff that is just down right bad but at the end of the day, mic it up, hit record and enjoy the path the music takes.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 2, 2015 8:20:23 GMT -6
Bonham used to leave every head but the snare head on his kit for months! He even kept the snare head on as long as he could, it's funny how all the "change the heads guys" have never gotten a drum sound even close, and most of their drummers couldn't pull tone from a drum with a stick strike if their life depended on it. As far as capture?... again, forget about it! Most "AE's" these days have cut their teeth in their underwear with a mouse in their hand, that ain't gonna get you there.
Recording drums is serious business if you plan to get a good sound, you need a great drummer playing a great properly tuned instrument, a great room, great mics, great pre's and a great engineer working them, and since these are all as rare as rocking horse poop, what you get instead is replacements from a guy in his underwear 8)
BTW, lets not forget, A D112 and a gate has many a kick drum killed, myself being a murderer on a mass scale in the click drum 90's haha
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Post by noah shain on Jul 2, 2015 12:52:03 GMT -6
Another reason to use samples is because in some genres of music it has become common practice. The sound achieved through hyper compression over many layers is really hard, if not impossible to achieve because of the leakage on live drum close mics. If you compress a snare mic enough it becomes a hi hat mic, ya know? Even with heavy gating sometimes. So, to achieve that hyper compressed modern/active rock sound (think CLA, John Feldman, Bendeth) samples become almost necessary. Wether or not the drums were recorded well. Even if they were recorded perfectly. It's part of the technique of achieving a certain sound. THOUGH, I don't know about replacement...its blending. Even Andy Wallace, in interviews, talks about using the sample for his reverb send. No mystery that he uses samples if you listen to some of his mixes. The bigger point here is how he talks about using the sample...he refers to it in such an offhand way as if it's just a given that it's there. Like it's just part of the kit.
I know it ain't everybody but I'd bet, without hesitation, that it most pro mixers.
The sound of modern, mainstream, aggressive rock (and other genres) drums is damned hard to get without samples.
Here in LA they are freely shared throughout the pro community. The assistants and even sometimes the actual mixers just pass them around.
I have stuff from Dr. Luke, Andy Wallace, Feldman, CLA, etc...
It's so common that it's just thought of as part of the process. In fact it was Bob Clearmountain who had the first widely distributed library.
It's just part of the sound of SOME mixes.
It's done every day all day...
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 2, 2015 13:38:26 GMT -6
Another reason to use samples is because in some genres of music it has become common practice. The sound achieved through hyper compression over many layers is really hard, if not impossible to achieve because of the leakage on live drum close mics. If you compress a snare mic enough it becomes a hi hat mic, ya know? Even with heavy gating sometimes. So, to achieve that hyper compressed modern/active rock sound (think CLA, John Feldman, Bendeth) samples become almost necessary. Wether or not the drums were recorded well. Even if they were recorded perfectly. It's part of the technique of achieving a certain sound. THOUGH, I don't know about replacement...its blending. Even Andy Wallace, in interviews, talks about using the sample for his reverb send. No mystery that he uses samples if you listen to some of his mixes. The bigger point here is how he talks about using the sample...he refers to it in such an offhand way as if it's just a given that it's there. Like it's just part of the kit. I know it ain't everybody but I'd bet, without hesitation, that it most pro mixers. The sound of modern, mainstream, aggressive rock (and other genres) drums is damned hard to get without samples. Here in LA they are freely shared throughout the pro community. The assistants and even sometimes the actual mixers just pass them around. I have stuff from Dr. Luke, Andy Wallace, Feldman, CLA, etc... It's so common that it's just thought of as part of the process. In fact it was Bob Clearmountain who had the first widely distributed library. It's just part of the sound of SOME mixes. It's done every day all day... That's funny, I've got that Clearmountain library. I was tracking a band from Atlantic and the drummer (yep the drummer) had a disk that he gave me with some heavy hitters samples. I keep that locked up and backed up, Clearmountain's are still really good. CLA's and Bendeth's were on it as well. I thought I had something not a lot of folks had, but now that I here you describe that it looks like it's common over there. Of course this was back around 2006 when I got them, so maybe then they were top secret  I always tell myself that  |
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Post by joseph on Jul 2, 2015 15:01:41 GMT -6
Recording drums is serious business if you plan to get a good sound, you need a great drummer playing a great properly tuned instrument, a great room, great mics, great pre's and a great engineer working them, and since these are all as rare as rocking horse poop, what you get instead is replacements from a guy in his underwear 8) So true. Getting a really good drum sound is a big pain in the ass, and the good part is 90% the drummer. If I'm going to spend all that time on something, then why replace all the work with samples? Which won't help the drumming performance truly take off for anyone who has an ear. Aside from that, the complete grid/replacement in vogue today is very different from supplemental Andy Wallace style, or at least what he used to do. But for musical reasons, I think it's the happy accidents in the kick or snare especially that can make a song distinctive, and you can still preserve the core sound while using mults and such to beef things up if needed. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 2, 2015 15:45:20 GMT -6
I had a drummer in last week who came off the road 15 years ago, and put the drums away. Pulled them out, tuned them up, played great, sounded great. It's always mostly the guy.
Another case, hired gun drummer couldn't stay for a session that dragged on, but could leave his drums for the next guy who was called in when the session ran over. Next guy did nothing to the kit, just sat down and played. The two songs sound like different kits. Again, mostly the guy.
Have had plenty of crappy drummers make good well tuned drums sound like indistinguishable poop too.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 2, 2015 16:23:27 GMT -6
Thanks for all the answers.
Cant help myself, as soon I replace the kick with a sample it gets scary close to my refernce tunes in Magic AB.
Maybe its not the the ART of AE, but who cares ....
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Post by scumbum on Jul 2, 2015 16:34:09 GMT -6
Bonham used to leave every head but the snare head on his kit for months! He even kept the snare head on as long as he could, it's funny how all the "change the heads guys" have never gotten a drum sound even close, and most of their drummers couldn't pull tone from a drum with a stick strike if their life depended on it. As far as capture?... again, forget about it! Most "AE's" these days have cut their teeth in their underwear with a mouse in their hand, that ain't gonna get you there. Recording drums is serious business if you plan to get a good sound, you need a great drummer playing a great properly tuned instrument, a great room, great mics, great pre's and a great engineer working them, and since these are all as rare as rocking horse poop, what you get instead is replacements from a guy in his underwear 8) BTW, lets not forget, A D112 and a gate has many a kick drum killed, myself being a murderer on a mass scale in the click drum 90's haha I can't remember who it was but I was researching how often to change drums heads and theres a very famous session drummer thats played on a ton of hit records and he never changes his drum heads . Wish I could remember who it was. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 2, 2015 16:54:53 GMT -6
Bonham used to leave every head but the snare head on his kit for months! He even kept the snare head on as long as he could, it's funny how all the "change the heads guys" have never gotten a drum sound even close, and most of their drummers couldn't pull tone from a drum with a stick strike if their life depended on it. As far as capture?... again, forget about it! Most "AE's" these days have cut their teeth in their underwear with a mouse in their hand, that ain't gonna get you there. Recording drums is serious business if you plan to get a good sound, you need a great drummer playing a great properly tuned instrument, a great room, great mics, great pre's and a great engineer working them, and since these are all as rare as rocking horse poop, what you get instead is replacements from a guy in his underwear 8) BTW, lets not forget, A D112 and a gate has many a kick drum killed, myself being a murderer on a mass scale in the click drum 90's haha I can't remember who it was but I was researching how often to change drums heads and theres a very famous session drummer thats played on a ton of hit records and he never changes his drum heads . Wish I could remember who it was. Steve Gadd's heads often look old in pics? He played on the new James Taylor record.... |
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Post by scumbum on Jul 2, 2015 17:36:51 GMT -6
I can't remember who it was but I was researching how often to change drums heads and theres a very famous session drummer thats played on a ton of hit records and he never changes his drum heads . Wish I could remember who it was. Steve Gadd's heads often look old in pics? He played on the new James Taylor record.... I did a quick search , I think it was him , heres a quote I found , "Yard Gavrilovic only changes the heads on Gadd's kit when Steve says he wants him to. "I always leave it to the guy to tell me, because if I change it they could go, 'Oh, they were sounding good!'" explains Yard. "So we have this thing where if a head's really bad and all dented, we don't change all of them. He might get up after the gig and say, 'Let's just change the 12,' and then that's all you'll do. Some people seem to think that if one head goes you have to change all of them, but you don't!" Gadd particularly likes to keep the snare head on right until the point it breaks." |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 2, 2015 18:56:00 GMT -6
Drum heads are still a black science to me. Fresh heads are nice and bright, which helps in the overheads because now they're closer to the same brightness as the drummers cheapo cymbals, but that's not always what you want. Some people also want fresher heads because they're easier to tune, but often really bad *boinky* sound drum heads are due to them having been mistensioned from day one. There's an awful lot of drummers who simply can't do this stuff, which is a shame. I think the combination of the difficulty required in getting the exact pitch from the drum plus the relative infrequency that's required of it means they don't get the practice.
On that note I'm a big fan of tuning both sides of a tom to the same pitch, then dampening after if I need the decay to be shorter. Anyone else in my camp?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 2, 2015 20:18:29 GMT -6
For me, I love a natural drum sound, I will use drum head ply's and thickness to accomplish the degree of damping i'm looking for, but I really don't like thick heads, I'm a vintage ambassador/reso side, and vintage emperor batter side guy, i never use moongels or anything else for after the fact damping, i don't like the effect those things have on feel/playability. I don't like small drums either, note depth is a function of diameter, not depth of shell, an 18" kick drum does not sound huge, because it isn't, big drums sit where they should and out of the way of other instruments. I also believe drums should be torqued up a bit, and be a bit boingy sounding to the drummer in the seat, if you're getting a big thud in the seat, the sound isn't going to develope, and project into the mics or room, i'm also not a fan of close micing, though of course it has it's place.
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I always tell myself that 
