Pro Tools Master Fader Degrades Audio Quality ?

Never noticed a difference, but I'm in PTHD. Also, I don't "bounce" mixes, I record them back into PT "pre" master fader on another track. Did you try a null?

Very weird.

If they null, there's your answer. Never heard of a "gated" null.

Have you blind ABX tested yourself? I personally don't trust myself unless it's a blind test. What I was sure I was hearing has been proven wrong too many times.

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me

Its all good , I had the same response as jordanvoth when I read about it too . But I do recommend people to try it themselves . I did and I got the results that the two bounces did not null .


Heres a quote from John Vestman's website , maybe we could ask him to join and contribute to the thread ,





"Q) Why do you recommend to not use master faders in Protools? Sound quality would be better - is there a reason for that???

Most of the time Digidesign people disclaim that anything sounds different in Pro Tools when it comes to alternate busses, master fader, summing in the box vs. out of the box, etc. Another Grammy-winning engineer showed us the difference in sound without the master fader - we did not expect it!

We're not computer programmers, and we can only guess that it requires more processor power to have the master fader in. Taking the master fader out in Digital Performer makes a big difference, as does turning off graphic features like the meter display in the virtual mixer. It just seems that there's some kind of processor "headroom" that's desireable.

Forget what we're saying here - try it yourself and see what works best for you. It helps a great deal if you have high resolution audio, speaker and power cables, and of course high resolution monitor control. It makes a big difference if you have high resolution speakers that are full range, and usually not powered speakers (the vibration takes away some resolution in the image)."

www.johnvestman.com/more_mixing.htm

Okay fine, my knowledge of a digital fader, being what it is, is that it is a linear volume up or down device imparting sweet nothing on the signal it controls. Perhaps in the analog domain this would be different but I have a hard time believing there is one in the digital domain. That's about all I have knowledge wise but why? What's the point of bringing up this nonsense? Like I'm going to bypass the master fader and all of a sudden my work is going to open up and I'm going to go on to a nice career of mixing albums? Probably not, this modeller vs the amp or plugin vs the hardware or this preamp or that mic doesn't fucking matter. It's going to all come down to a compelling performance by a good musician playing a great sounding instrument. THAT'S the rub, I'm more interested in the conversation that is about that and lately through all the forums it's just buy this mic pre make platinum album jargon and it's boring as fuck. 

Obviously the recording community represented on forums is religiously materialistic and blindly nostalgic but I still believe that the real great sounds of yesterday and today have very little to do with recording gear.  

No disrespect to you or anyone else on this forum intended, I fail to see how you would have seen it as such but if so I extend my apology that my frustration would be perceived as disrespectful.

Not being a pro tools user... how do you do your bounce..if you have no master fader... where do the tracks sum to? an Aux?


Also, second question... could it be that the website info is outdated? that it might be from a time when that was the case, and a version change or upgrade got rid of the issue?

I can see merit in the thought that there is an awful lot happening under the hood in a DAW that we must take in good faith.

Even if you think about the possibilities for unwanted phase shit with drum tracks/plug ins/delay compensation... its a potential imaging nightmare.

cheers

Wiz

In the early days say pre pt5 the master acted like a digital volume control in that it lowered the bit depth of the output but that was changed ages ago!

wow, this thread really turned south, Scum asked a legit Q, He couldn't get a master fader bounce and a - master fader bounce to null, does anyone have a good (not smart ass) answer for that?
   @jordanvoth, i appreciate you saying you weren't trying to dis, but the thing is, it's a thread that you are not required to participate in if you have nothing positive to contribute, right? So if you're bored by the content, then why bother?
   Honestly, reading guys saying "it's the performance/song/mic placement" or "gear doesn't matter" on a GEAR FORUM! is unbelievable? Ya know what else is tiring? when guys repeatedly try to protect their paradigm by call things they may not hear or don't understand BS, in the face of guys that do or have the audacity to inquire, this is just another form of defensive confirmation bias.
   
    I digress, there are a lot of seriously great engineers who realize the results of what they achieve are contingent upon the sum of thousands of small things, thats why they mix in beastly outfitted studios, or strive to improve their own gear until satisfied, they get that every single piece counts in conjunction with the skill of application(the song/performance/competent tracking in a great room are simply assumed).
    The undesired effect of what great engineers complain about when mixing ITB is commonly referred to as "digititus" (for lack of a technical answer, or better term), i've heard many of them say this, and most of them hybrid up, and use consoles and hardware because of it, I'm certainly not putting myself in their company, but I can honestly say i've NEVER been satisfied with a single ITB mix i've done, because i personally CAN HEAR that over edgy, disconnected "digititus" effect, i also hear that effect accumulate in direct correlation to more tracks and plugs getting used ITB, perhaps this is what scum is hearing? My dissatisfaction with this phenomenon along with latency is why i'm putting forth a long laborious effort, and obnoxious expense to move primarily OTB, but hey, i guess i could be full of BS 8)

Here is a little vid comparison of ITB vs OTB summing, is the obviousness of these comparisons BS also?

 I have been researching this ever since I read your post(s) about this Bob... but I use Logic ... I can't find the answers to this I will keep researching though.

cheers

Wiz

yeah.  I do.  Turn off all automation, de-instantiate all plugins, remove reverb and delay FX from the mix, pan everything hard L/C/R.  Bounce with and without fader.  I'd be willing to bet they will null.

The thing is it always has been and always will be about what works for you, no one else, I learned many moons ago that most reviews are either politically biased, because of ad revenue , endoresments, freebies, or simple justification for buying .
Look not to long ago the Shure level loc was considered the biggest pile of crap ever, now it's a fashionable, colorful secret weapon!

Rule # 1 don't knock what works.
Rule # 2 it's not about, how you got there , it's that you got there!
Many many moons ago I worked on a project by the freind of a well know Grammy winning RE who spouted his hate for a certain mic, "he loved my work" didn't have the heart to tell him the main mic on the project was his pet peeve
But then if you have done this long enough you have a collection of these stories.

Ok , I'll try it to see what happens .