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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2024 10:48:53 GMT -6
reached the point that the non-(super)budget products are basically the same as their name brand counterparts? I'm just striking up conversation, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to buy a UREI 1178 for $4k or whatever. I'm sure it would sound different than my AS version - but better? I guess my questions is kinda this: in the early days, the proper components weren't used or cheaper parts or the builds were bad...are we at a point now that in certain cases, the clone-HW isn't inferior, just maybe different?
I spent years cork-sniffing different 1073s...but now after having the Stam (and you could say that about BAE, Heritage et al) I don't even think about it anymore. Am I growing up and letting go of the silly minutae or has the quality reached a point where it's moot?
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Post by Quint on May 17, 2024 11:20:26 GMT -6
To a large extent, I think the answer is, yes, when it comes to equivalent (different, but not better or worse) sound quality. But what you're not necessarily going to get with those cheaper prices are build quality, longevity of components, or customer support, to whatever extent that matters.
Maybe my above statement isn't as applicable for the first tier stuff like Warm/KT/Behringer, where they cheap out on the design and leave out things like interstage transformers or use lower quality transformers, where these sort of cost saving measures do actually have a negative impact on the sound quality itself.
But stuff above that, in the sort of second tier of clones, like Heritage and what not, I mostly don't think about it on a sound quality level. It's just the longevity, build quality and customer service that I maybe wonder about.
And then the third tier clone stuff, like Audioscape and others like them, I don't worry about on any level at all. It's as good as the original in every way.
Stam I would sort of put somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 because, despite how it may sound, it is a pain in the ass to deal with on a customer service level and, personally speaking, I've had QA/QC issues with every single item I've ever ordered from them. Their typical response has been that they make "artisan" products, insinuating that I should just accept a certain level of fuck ups and not complain, to which I respond with "did you sell me cheese?". They do sound good, but I doubt I'll ever buy anything from Stam again.
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Post by chessparov on May 17, 2024 11:37:02 GMT -6
Great question.  IMHO analogous to boutique/smaller company microphones.  Chris |
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Post by yotonic on May 17, 2024 11:50:11 GMT -6
I would never pay $4,000 for a UREI 1178. I paid $2300 for mine years ago (before the insanity) and that was my limit. What's interesting is that when you go on the other side of the glass as a musician you quickly stop paying attention to what gear an engineer is using....LOL And even then when they use all vintage gear I'm not noticing it because I'm not "in the project" as the engineer. I'm more interested in parts people are playing, backing vox etc. Makes you wonder....
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Post by FM77 on May 17, 2024 12:24:54 GMT -6
Some buy vintage gear for the what it is, despite the function of what it does. That is where the price discrepancies are in my observation. Its not function versus function, though that is often talked about in part of the justification.
Fact is, plenty of vintage gear is mediocre, out of spec, noisy, it needs work and wasn’t that great even in its heyday. It was there, and therefore often gets credit by default.
I feel buying modern gear; remakes, etc is just smart. Budget clone companies aside, modern takes on vintage gear often outperform in every way, this has been the case for years. That said, I have no qualms about cork-sniffing and feel that not enough people practice it or learn what it really is. It has nothing to do with the pretentiousness that often follows the saying. People use it as an insult, when really is a compliment and generally based on discernment or a personal standard of excellence. It 100% has nothing to do with cost or country of origin, they just go hand in hand often (or used to). Cork sniffers recognize exceptional gear at any price.
Details matters, build quality, tolerance, craftsmanship, heart soul injected…etc. that is what interests me and inspires me and that is who I try to support. Whether pro audio HW, instruments, amps, effects etc. I have found that despite any piece sounding 'as good', if the attention to detail is not there, that last inch of the mile so to speak, I generally have a strong dis-interest. I prefer to pay the difference for the last 10% of build quality for large or small companies, artists and craftsman etc who do it right. I don't get to keep any of this when I go, so I want to enjoy the process. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2024 12:58:30 GMT -6
To a large extent, I think the answer is, yes, when it comes to equivalent (different, but not better or worse) sound quality. But what you're not necessarily going to get with those cheaper prices are build quality, longevity of components, or customer support, to whatever extent that matters. Maybe my above statement isn't as applicable for the first tier stuff like Warm/KT/Behringer, where they cheap out on the design and leave out things like interstage transformers or use lower quality transformers, where these sort of cost saving measures do actually have a negative impact on the sound quality itself. But stuff above that, in the sort of second tier of clones, like Heritage and what not, I mostly don't think about it on a sound quality level. It's just the longevity, build quality and customer service that I maybe wonder about. And then the third tier clone stuff, like Audioscape and others like them, I don't worry about on any level at all. It's as good as the original in every way. Stam I would sort of put somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 because, despite how it may sound, it is a pain in the ass to deal with on a customer service level and, personally speaking, I've had QA/QC issues with every single item I've ever ordered from them. Their typical response has been that they make "artisan" products, insinuating that I should just accept a certain level of fuck ups and not complain, to which I respond with "did you sell me cheese?". They do sound good, but I doubt I'll ever buy anything from Stam again. There have been QC issues with a couple of my older Stam buys, but never had issues with some of the later stuff. That being said - every single Stam product I’ve had sounds fantastic. That ADG is the thickest FET comp I’ve ever used. Both 1073 variants I’ve had have been as good as the BAE stuff I compared it to. Anyway - I really think the stuff sounds great - but yes - we all know the waits are a bit untenable. |
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Post by Quint on May 17, 2024 13:29:55 GMT -6
To a large extent, I think the answer is, yes, when it comes to equivalent (different, but not better or worse) sound quality. But what you're not necessarily going to get with those cheaper prices are build quality, longevity of components, or customer support, to whatever extent that matters. Maybe my above statement isn't as applicable for the first tier stuff like Warm/KT/Behringer, where they cheap out on the design and leave out things like interstage transformers or use lower quality transformers, where these sort of cost saving measures do actually have a negative impact on the sound quality itself. But stuff above that, in the sort of second tier of clones, like Heritage and what not, I mostly don't think about it on a sound quality level. It's just the longevity, build quality and customer service that I maybe wonder about. And then the third tier clone stuff, like Audioscape and others like them, I don't worry about on any level at all. It's as good as the original in every way. Stam I would sort of put somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 because, despite how it may sound, it is a pain in the ass to deal with on a customer service level and, personally speaking, I've had QA/QC issues with every single item I've ever ordered from them. Their typical response has been that they make "artisan" products, insinuating that I should just accept a certain level of fuck ups and not complain, to which I respond with "did you sell me cheese?". They do sound good, but I doubt I'll ever buy anything from Stam again. There have been QC issues with a couple of my older Stam buys, but never had issues with some of the later stuff. That being said - every single Stam product I’ve had sounds fantastic. That ADG is the thickest FET comp I’ve ever used. Both 1073 variants I’ve had have been as good as the BAE stuff I compared it to. Anyway - I really think the stuff sounds great - but yes - we all know the waits are a bit untenable. The sound is definitely there. I just had issues with knobs on my pair of 1073EQs, issues with the lid and transformer mounting (they were very loose) on my pair of 76ADGs, and issues with a knob and a PCB standoff on my 609. That, plus the wait times we're all aware of, and I'm pretty reluctant to do it again. This is why I kind of considered Stam somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd tier in my previous post. The sound is great, but some of the other issues keep them from being at the same level as Audioscape, in my opinion. |
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Post by stam on May 17, 2024 14:19:48 GMT -6
You have to take into account that we ship from the other side of the world and 99% of issues happen during shipment. No unit leaves our workshop with a fault or an issue (unless there is a twisted knob or small scratch I miss every now and then).
We have clients with 40/50 units from us with zero failure rates in 5 years and we have had a few clients with 4 units and all 4 arrived with an issue.
About a year ago we decided to start dropping all units from a certain height (boxed up) to emulate the treatment they will get from Fedex and bingo. About 10% of them didn’t pass QC and now very rarely have any issue with clients.
I won’t compare myself with other manufacturers but I can say we buy the most expensive or solid parts available for our units and so far things haven been very good. Servicing 500 Stamchild beasts under warranty would be a financial nightmare for a small company.
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Post by indiehouse on May 17, 2024 15:38:08 GMT -6
You have to take into account that we ship from the other side of the world and 99% of issues happen during shipment. No unit leaves our workshop with a fault or an issue (unless there is a twisted knob or small scratch I miss every now and then). We have clients with 40/50 units from us with zero failure rates in 5 years and we have had a few clients with 4 units and all 4 arrived with an issue. About a year ago we decided to start dropping all units from a certain height (boxed up) to emulate the treatment they will get from Fedex and bingo. About 10% of them didn’t pass QC and now very rarely have any issue with clients. I won’t compare myself with other manufacturers but I can say we buy the most expensive or solid parts available for our units and so far things haven been very good. Servicing 500 Stamchild beasts under warranty would be a financial nightmare for a small company. I don't know if I've ever had gear packaged as well as a Stam piece. Kudos on the packaging, Josh! |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2024 16:05:16 GMT -6
Yeah just got my 660 and it had about 4-6 inches of bubble wrap around a double box.
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Post by Quint on May 17, 2024 16:16:57 GMT -6
I'm not trying to make this thread into a referendum on Stam build quality. I'll just leave it at this. None of the issues I experienced had anything to do with shipping. They went in the box that way.
And it's been a while, but I wanna say that I remember at least some of the packages arriving in a condition that aligns with what others are saying about it being well packed. But that sort of proves my point about them going in the box in an already defective manner. It wasn't the shipping. They went in the box that way.
I kind of just moved on, and didn't bother even contacting Stam about some of these defects (I did contact Stam about repair on the worst defects) because it just wasn't worth it to me to deal with the hassle and run around, not to mention that I had some tragedies going on in my personal life at the time, so I didn't exactly have the bandwidth to get in an argument about repairs. But they were absolutely pre-shipping defects. No two ways about it.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2024 16:43:24 GMT -6
Hey - I had an awful experience with Aurora Audio...and will never buy again. But others seem to love theirs...
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Post by Quint on May 17, 2024 17:10:40 GMT -6
Hey - I had an awful experience with Aurora Audio...and will never buy again. But others seem to love theirs... You're not the only one I've heard say this about Aurora. They seem to be having some problems over there. |
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Post by chessparov on May 17, 2024 17:26:00 GMT -6
EZ for me to say but...
Looks like Geoff is getting some Family help now.
On the GS Aurora Thread it mentioned this.
Just skimming and noticed the Aurora posts.
Chris
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eq
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by eq on May 17, 2024 18:42:51 GMT -6
reached the point that the non-(super)budget products are basically the same as their name brand counterparts? I'm just striking up conversation, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to buy a UREI 1178 for $4k or whatever. I'm sure it would sound different than my AS version - but better? I guess my questions is kinda this: in the early days, the proper components weren't used or cheaper parts or the builds were bad...are we at a point now that in certain cases, the clone-HW isn't inferior, just maybe different? I spent years cork-sniffing different 1073s...but now after having the Stam (and you could say that about BAE, Heritage et al) I don't even think about it anymore. Am I growing up and letting go of the silly minutae or has the quality reached a point where it's moot? Well lets see if this one makes the cut : Behringer 369 / Neve clone |
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Post by stam on May 17, 2024 19:00:45 GMT -6
I'm not trying to make this thread into a referendum on Stam build quality. I'll just leave it at this. None of the issues I experienced had anything to do with shipping. They went in the box that way. And it's been a while, but I wanna say that I remember at least some of the packages arriving in a condition that aligns with what others are saying about it being well packed. But that sort of proves my point about them going in the box in an already defective manner. It wasn't the shipping. They went in the box that way. I kind of just moved on, and didn't bother even contacting Stam about some of these defects (I did contact Stam about repair on the worst defects) because it just wasn't worth it to me to deal with the hassle and run around, not to mention that I had some tragedies going on in my personal life at the time, so I didn't exactly have the bandwidth to get in an argument about repairs. But they were absolutely pre-shipping defects. No two ways about it. No they didn't go in the box that way but we already had that debate and it was many years ago, it's pointless to have it again. All the issues you had aside from the 609 were shipping related. I am glad you moved on. |
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Post by stam on May 17, 2024 19:09:39 GMT -6
Hey - I had an awful experience with Aurora Audio...and will never buy again. But others seem to love theirs... Geoff is a great guy, he helped me a lot without expecting anything back when I was starting out. His products are also of tremendous quality but like every company some people will have a bad experience, unlucky for you man |
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Post by Quint on May 17, 2024 20:23:09 GMT -6
I'm not trying to make this thread into a referendum on Stam build quality. I'll just leave it at this. None of the issues I experienced had anything to do with shipping. They went in the box that way. And it's been a while, but I wanna say that I remember at least some of the packages arriving in a condition that aligns with what others are saying about it being well packed. But that sort of proves my point about them going in the box in an already defective manner. It wasn't the shipping. They went in the box that way. I kind of just moved on, and didn't bother even contacting Stam about some of these defects (I did contact Stam about repair on the worst defects) because it just wasn't worth it to me to deal with the hassle and run around, not to mention that I had some tragedies going on in my personal life at the time, so I didn't exactly have the bandwidth to get in an argument about repairs. But they were absolutely pre-shipping defects. No two ways about it. No they didn't go in the box that way but we already had that debate and it was many years ago, it's pointless to have it again. All the issues you had aside from the 609 were shipping related. I am glad you moved on. Misaligned knobs are not shipping related (I can't turn the freq selector without it dragging the concentric gain knob along with it). Improperly attached transformers (your repair tech told me he had already been making recommendations to you to start using Loctite on the mounting bolts for transformers, among other things) are not shipping related. Misaligned PCBs are not shipping related (the SA609 PCB and/or case was incorrectly designed or built, and 2 of the 5 standoffs underneath don't align with the screw holes on the PCB, but you guys just stuck with it rather than redesign or rebuild a properly mounted PCB). Plastic knobs on the SA609, which can't handle the torque necessary to turn the underlying switch without stripping the plastic knobs off of the switch, are not shipping related. Stripped out mounting screws on the lid are not shipping related (you guys also wanted me to initially try to fix it with glue?!?...) I'm not trying to relitigate this here either. But it's also not like I've forgotten how things went down. Facts are facts. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2024 21:34:00 GMT -6
Hey - I had an awful experience with Aurora Audio...and will never buy again. But others seem to love theirs... Geoff is a great guy, he helped me a lot without expecting anything back when I was starting out. His products are also of tremendous quality but like every company some people will have a bad experience, unlucky for you man I had several pieces of his. Yeah they’re great when they worked. I’ve told this story several times but in a nutshell - Pre broke. I paid shipping to send to Aurora for repair. I get it back, plug it in and same issue. So I call and they want me to pay to send it back…and dude was rude. So I pay again to send. Then it stays there for weeks with no responses. Finally get it back and it worked. That’s the VERY short story, but I was met with condescension, denial and general fuckheadedness. I shared that experience in a very nice way on this forum and later invited Geoff to come on. He basically told me to go fuck myself. |
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Post by stam on May 18, 2024 0:05:25 GMT -6
No they didn't go in the box that way but we already had that debate and it was many years ago, it's pointless to have it again. All the issues you had aside from the 609 were shipping related. I am glad you moved on. Misaligned knobs are not shipping related. Improperly attached transformers (your repair tech told me he had already been making recommendations to you to start using Loctite on the mounting bolts for transformers, among other things) are not shipping related. Misaligned PCBs are not shipping related. Stripped out mounting screws on the lid are not shipping related (you guys also wanted me to initially try to fix it with glue...) I'm not trying to relitigate this here either. But it's also not like I've forgotten how things went down. Yes they were but we are not going to agree, let’s leave it at rest. This thread is not about Stam. Let’s move on. |
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Post by Quint on May 18, 2024 0:56:25 GMT -6
Misaligned knobs are not shipping related. Improperly attached transformers (your repair tech told me he had already been making recommendations to you to start using Loctite on the mounting bolts for transformers, among other things) are not shipping related. Misaligned PCBs are not shipping related. Stripped out mounting screws on the lid are not shipping related (you guys also wanted me to initially try to fix it with glue...) I'm not trying to relitigate this here either. But it's also not like I've forgotten how things went down. Yes they were but we are not going to agree, let’s leave it at rest. This thread is not about Stam. Let’s move on. As I previously said, I wasn't trying to relitigate this in this thread. But, nevertheless, I'm also free to offer my thoughts on history, and offer an opinion on where I see Stam fitting into thr clone pecking order. Matter of fact, I've had quite the restraint on this subject. This thread is, by far, the most I've ever spoken publicly about QA/QC issues with your products. So I'm sorry if posting about this in this one thread is inconvenient for you. I could have been all over the forums dogging on Stam build quality, but I didn't. |
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Post by indiehouse on May 18, 2024 5:24:35 GMT -6
I’ve had issues with a few of my Stam pieces. Josh has always taken care of it, which involved sending it to his U.S. repair tech. He’s generally pretty responsive through email. His stuff sounds great.
And I’m not one to care one way or another if the faceplate says Stam/Audioscape or Neve/Universal Audio, etc. I only care what it sounds like (and how much it costs). And also support from the people who make them. I’ve had excellent support from Audioscape, Retro and Chandler as well as Stam. Those pieces all developed issues at one point, and all of them made it right.
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Post by stam on May 18, 2024 6:48:35 GMT -6
You are spot on.
We have a saying in the audio/electronics world, if a 50 million dollar Rolls Royce plane engine can fail so can a 1 dollar capacitor or 20 dollar tube.
As long as we stand behind our products, offer free repairs and our time to resolve any issues that is what matters. All units will eventually fail and some will even arrive broken.
It's part of the job.
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Post by smashlord on May 18, 2024 10:02:19 GMT -6
reached the point that the non-(super)budget products are basically the same as their name brand counterparts? I think it depends on the brand and depends on the piece. BAE stuff, IMO, is certainly up there with its brand name counterparts. I've had a room full of engineers agree that the Serpent Splice sounded better than a Rev D UREI. In other cases, I haven't felt certain clones have nailed the thing the originals do. I have a few products from one of the darlings of the affordable clone makers and I don't feel the sound nor the build quality of their products are in the same league as the boxes they seek to emulate. |
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Post by chessparov on May 18, 2024 12:21:17 GMT -6
EZ for me to say but... Looks like Geoff is getting some Family help now. On the GS Aurora Thread it mentioned this. Just skimming and noticed the Aurora posts. Chris customersupport@auroraaudio.net Is supposed to be where his family can help. Geoff's has had a lot of medical issues, with his cataracts. He's supposed to get another procedure to help soon. Chris P.S. Joshua, are things OK for you now? IIRC you had some health concerns too. (Notice I haven't teased you lately? ) |
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