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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 10:57:54 GMT -6
Apparently, I suck at my job. Lol. I sent a guy a rough labeled “rough” for him to track vocals to…I sent a Mix 1 to him and get back, “that mix you sent about a month ago sounded way more open and less busy.” Sigh.
In all seriousness, how do you even respond to that? (I just told him what I sent before hadn’t even been touched.) He also said he was comparing on his Jeep speakers…sigh. I’ve been through this kind of stuff before - either someone really was such a newbie they really can’t recognize good and bad or just ONE mix element ruins the whole thing for them. When we tracked this, he was listening via audio movers, so we didn’t have scratch vocals…there are three eg parts, and the player basically played a ton all the way through (I can always mute parts) - and I think when I mixed, he could finally hear that this was in the way…
Guess I’m just saying with clients like this, you’re constantly translating and deducing what they’re trying to say…and it’s exhausting.
Here’s the more condensed way to ask the question: How do YOU deal with opinionated, inexperienced people when you know they’re making stupid decisions/requests and/or listening through a Delco radio in an open air recreational vehicle? Do you invite trouble and ask just what “open” means?
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 20, 2024 11:11:14 GMT -6
Smile and wave, send them the invoice, move onto the next job. That's how I dealt with those sort of customers..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2024 11:13:20 GMT -6
In the hat day of cassette ir was common for auto reverse decks to never hold alignment so you would get all these guys requesting more HF till your ears were bleeding. Or a favorite was this guy who loved it in his car , on this Walkmen, etc except on his brothers stereo everything collapsed, he had the mono button pushed in.
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Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2024 11:20:05 GMT -6
In the hat day of cassette ir was common for auto reverse decks to never hold alignment so you would get all these guys requesting more HF till your ears were bleeding. Or a favorite was this guy who loved it in his car , on this Walkmen, etc except on his brothers stereo everything collapsed, he had the mono button pushed in. Engineer should have checked mono compatability. I KNOW that wasn't YOU Eric......  |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2024 11:31:57 GMT -6
In the hat day of cassette ir was common for auto reverse decks to never hold alignment so you would get all these guys requesting more HF till your ears were bleeding. Or a favorite was this guy who loved it in his car , on this Walkmen, etc except on his brothers stereo everything collapsed, he had the mono button pushed in. Engineer should have checked mono compatability. I KNOW that wasn't YOU Eric...... It wasn’t I was just the guy tasked with finding out was going on. Of course when we say mono compatibility, we need to remind people that can be sub to mono, straight up just left ch and to be safe straight up right and always for fun flip left and right. Man I was going to sell this old Conrad Johnson Stereo pre amp that’s just sitting on a shelf, I’m remembering why I loved it for checking mixes. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 20, 2024 11:34:57 GMT -6
Yeah, that. Tell'em it's the same thing, try listening somewhere else, getting some sleep, drinking some water, etc. Pretty much the same as someone telling you it immediately sounds better when you're just touched the knob and haven't turned it yet.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 20, 2024 11:35:17 GMT -6
Delicately ask for more detail and/or song references that have the sound he’s looking for. It’s a can of worms for sure, but sometimes forcing the artist to be more specific and detailed helps them put into perspective just what they’re hearing, what they like/dont like, etc.
The thing is, he may be right. There may be an element of the mix that he really liked before that is now lost. And he probably had no idea how to describe what he’s missing so he’s making vague, general statements like, “it’s not open enough, it’s too busy etc etc”. Sometimes people want stuff raw sounding.
Imho, once your chops are to a certain level (and your chops are clearly there already) it’s all about communication. Dealing with people is the real art form when it comes to producing/mixing etc.
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 20, 2024 11:39:19 GMT -6
There are a bunch of projects out there that I refused to put my name on because the artist wanted to do their own mix and it sounds like ass, however I did get payed for all that time they were dialing in the never-ending cavernous snare! I refused to argue with them I just charged them a couple more hours that day because of all the presets in my Lexicons and Eventide units! You guys have 900 presets to go! Have at it! 😆
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 20, 2024 11:44:31 GMT -6
Apparently, I suck at my job. Lol. I sent a guy a rough labeled “rough” for him to track vocals to…I sent a Mix 1 to him and get back, “that mix you sent about a month ago sounded way more open and less busy.” Sigh. In all seriousness, how do you even respond to that? (I just told him what I sent before hadn’t even been touched.) He also said he was comparing on his Jeep speakers…sigh. I’ve been through this kind of stuff before - either someone really was such a newbie they really can’t recognize good and bad or just ONE mix element ruins the whole thing for them. When we tracked this, he was listening via audio movers, so we didn’t have scratch vocals…there are three eg parts, and the player basically played a ton all the way through (I can always mute parts) - and I think when I mixed, he could finally hear that this was in the way… Guess I’m just saying with clients like this, you’re constantly translating and deducing what they’re trying to say…and it’s exhausting. Here’s the more condensed way to ask the question: How do YOU deal with opinionated, inexperienced people when you know they’re making stupid decisions/requests and/or listening through a Delco radio in an open air recreational vehicle? Do you invite trouble and ask just what “open” means? Oh I'm done with educating the masses. I now send "those kinds of people" hyped mixes. Compressed so they're loud, smiley face EQ - big bottom - exciting high end - cut the muddy mids. They're always thrilled! |
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 20, 2024 11:48:21 GMT -6
Crank the mains and the subs! 🤟🏻
You’ll be golden!!! 😆
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 20, 2024 12:22:23 GMT -6
I get anxiety sending rough mixes to people I'm working with because they're always judging unfinished work against full on productions. I always use the "molding clay" analogy, but people are so used to immediate results in today's world, they don't seem to get it. It's like, chill out and trust the process. Also, if you want to sound like Taylor Swift, go hire Jack Antonoff and Serban Ghenea. Oh wait, what's your budget? 500 bucks. Cool.
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Post by mcirish on Feb 20, 2024 12:29:09 GMT -6
I had a similar experience just the other day. Sometimes it really weighs me down and I wonder if I want to keep some clients.
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Post by svart on Feb 20, 2024 12:30:29 GMT -6
It's the hallmark of someone who's either 1.) too ambitious for their skills to support or 2.) too self-conscious and looking for any reason to blame-shift their anxiety or 3.) both.
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 20, 2024 12:35:50 GMT -6
Have you guys ever witnessed a fight about to break out between two band members in the control room? Seriously had to tell them to take it outside and go to the park to let your frustrations out, not on my property!
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Post by svart on Feb 20, 2024 12:52:03 GMT -6
Have you guys ever witnessed a fight about to break out between two band members in the control room? Seriously had to tell them to take it outside and go to the park to let your frustrations out, not on my property! I have! I've witnessed band members quit and walk out during their tracking time too. I've had offers from band members to pay me to replace parts of other band members in secret.. I've had band members get so drunk/high they couldn't walk out of the studio. I've had them show up on the wrong day. Once in a while I'll even have the WHOLE band show up, ON TIME, WITH all their gear in working order (rarest of all the weird stuff that happens at the studio). |
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Post by christopher on Feb 20, 2024 13:31:59 GMT -6
Just ignore the comments, they are irrelevant and the advice from them is always wrong. Take a few days off and do a touch up. Send it and see what happens. A few times of this, you’ll narrow in on the final. I think it’s just that WE know what’s best, and sometimes we need a little more time? The comment swings are pretty hilarious when they describe where it was before and to the Final.. I’m always thinking 🤔🙃
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2024 13:48:38 GMT -6
Have you guys ever witnessed a fight about to break out between two band members in the control room? Seriously had to tell them to take it outside and go to the park to let your frustrations out, not on my property! This why at the beginning of any recording, you get the number for the band’s favorite weed dealer or dispensary. Amazing how a couple of hits can mellow these situations. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2024 13:49:56 GMT -6
Yeah, that. Tell'em it's the same thing, try listening somewhere else, getting some sleep, drinking some water, etc. Pretty much the same as someone telling you it immediately sounds better when you're just touched the knob and haven't turned it yet. Why every console I have ever mixed on has a ch assigned to no where, the placebo effect. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 13:57:52 GMT -6
Smile and wave, send them the invoice, move onto the next job. That's how I dealt with those sort of customers.. Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 20, 2024 13:59:33 GMT -6
Smile and wave, send them the invoice, move onto the next job. That's how I dealt with those sort of customers.. Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. Is he local to you? Great upsell opportunity, get ‘em in for vocal ODs. My new strategy is charge more/upsell more. Oh, you’re not happy? Maybe we should redo some of your weak tracks? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 14:02:42 GMT -6
In the hat day of cassette ir was common for auto reverse decks to never hold alignment so you would get all these guys requesting more HF till your ears were bleeding. Or a favorite was this guy who loved it in his car , on this Walkmen, etc except on his brothers stereo everything collapsed, he had the mono button pushed in. Cars are teeerrrible to use for reference. My guess is that when I get him to listen to other songs, he'd probably think those vocals sounded "tinny" too. My 4Runner sounds must have a 60" sub, because when I reference songs in there, I'm always freaking out thinking I have way, way too much bass. Then I put on a Vance Powell et al mix and it has a huge boomy bottom too. It's the stereo/speakers that are hyped for consumers. Now - a really great mix still sounds great - just huge on the bottom...so, I've learned that much. Now imagine jeep speakers. Or hell - I'm scared to ask what monitors he's listening on...I would guess they're probably some bookshelf speakers. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2024 14:14:42 GMT -6
Well, there’s always the : send him 3 identical mixes and ask him to pick his fav gambit ! |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 20, 2024 14:24:04 GMT -6
I'll read the thread for real later, but my first instinct is to rarely give out rough mixes. Though (like in John's example) sometimes you have to.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 14:43:26 GMT -6
Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. Is he local to you? Great upsell opportunity, get ‘em in for vocal ODs. My new strategy is charge more/upsell more. Oh, you’re not happy? Maybe we should redo some of your weak tracks? No - he's in FL |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 14:49:03 GMT -6
I'll read the thread for real later, but my first instinct is to rarely give out rough mixes. Though (like in John's example) sometimes you have to. Yeah - it's hard to know what to do. I track at the same place 90% of the time, so I have my session data ready to pop in and it's basically set up ready to mix...but it's 75% there. Obviously, it's a starting point, but it sounds way better than sending aboard mix. I've gone back and forth whether to send a board mix that kinda sounds like shit or sending the semi-mixed version. I usually send the semi mixed so I don't have to get into the convo of "I know it doesn't sound great now, but you just wait..." Some people freak out because they have no clue about the process. BUT - I've also basically gotten stuff 90% there and gotten the "When you mix it..." So...wtf. I mean it is what it is...guess I'm just commiserating. |
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