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Post by bluesholyman on Feb 19, 2024 9:35:44 GMT -6
I recently saw a video by Rhett Shull where he an RJ Ronquillio are talking tape decks (one specifically in that video) and it got me to wondering if plugins can adequately cover the "tape" thing or if there is simply no substitute for what the analog world can do. Digital modeling, etc. has come a long way and I'm a bit of an old soul, love tubes, analog, etc., but the reality is I can't afford a tape deck (nor can I justify it) right now. But never hurts to wonder, eh?
As always, appreciate your thoughts.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,952 
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Post by ericn on Feb 19, 2024 9:40:51 GMT -6
No, I wish they could it would be cheaper and take up a hell of a lot less room than the Ampex 440-1/4 440-8 Revox A-77 and Akai.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 19, 2024 9:46:03 GMT -6
I recently saw a video by Rhett Shull where he an RJ Ronquillio are talking tape decks (one specifically in that video) and it got me to wondering if plugins can adequately cover the "tape" thing or if there is simply no substitute for what the analog world can do. Digital modeling, etc. has come a long way and I'm a bit of an old soul, love tubes, analog, etc., but the reality is I can't afford a tape deck (nor can I justify it) right now. But never hurts to wonder, eh? As always, appreciate your thoughts. Yes and no. I haven’t found any plugins that sound like drums coming off of 2” 16 track at 15ips. But, I’ve made recordings on Pro Tools and had other engineers ask if they were cut to tape. Some of that is the power of suggestion since there was a tape machine right there in the machine room next to where we were standing. I do think getting some transformer color on input is helpful for tape like glue across tracks. And something like Avid Heat can definitely add a nice touch of saturation: less is usually more though. And it’s still not going to sound like tape. But it can sound really flippin good, so I’m not sure I care anymore. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 19, 2024 10:09:03 GMT -6
UA has a new tape plugin(s) coming out pretty soon, apparently, so we'll see how that is. The Acustica tape stuff also sounds pretty good, but then you have to deal with Acustica which is ugh.... I haven't tried Uhe Satin, but I hear good things.
There is also Bereich Density, which isn't a plugin, but it's intended to be a tape like effect in hardware format.
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Post by Dan on Feb 19, 2024 10:11:44 GMT -6
No but who cares? They sound good. If you want something that approximates a clean tape deck's phase shift, softening of transients, noise, head bump, and high frequency saturation, get U-he Satin and pick one of the cleaner presets on "modern". "vintage" is more like the Softube and Goodhertz plugs but more roided out and requires more careful gain staging. If you want a cartoon of tape, get a Goodhertz or a Softube plug. These are all cool special effect saturators made by companies targeting VSTi musicians and perform the magic that people on the internet claim tape does. You can use 7.5 ips on them to chop the top end off and get easily usable results lol
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Post by chessparov on Feb 19, 2024 10:21:01 GMT -6
IMHO simply the microphones can go a long way. (Not saying it's the "be all end all" though) For example, I (I think I  ) can hear how my new Elly/47 FET style... Is (constructively) "covering up" the cheaper IC based Scarlett 3rd Gen Pre's. FWIW Klaus has previously posted on this effect... Of a smoother sounding capsule/circuit, in Digital Recording BTW. Anyway, it helps.  Chris P.S. Anyone try the PSP Saturator yet? |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Feb 19, 2024 11:05:35 GMT -6
Can plugins sufficiently do the "tape" thing?
Depends on your definition of sufficiently. They do something cool.
I have 2 tape machines and several tape plugins. I use all of them at different times for different purposes. Plugins have not captured the complete tape sound in my experience, but they can be very useful anyway.
If you don't want to invest in a good tape machine then plugins are better than nothing.
Each plugin seems to capture a different aspect of tape sound more than the others. None capture all aspects. None make a mix/master float between the speakers like my ATR 102 does.
I'd demo several of them to find which one(s) do what you have in mind.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Feb 19, 2024 11:14:11 GMT -6
Never had the space, money, patience, or skills to maintain a tape machine. So, I bought the typical UAD Tape plugins, and recently acquired a Bereich03 Density. I'd reach for the Density first for anything saturation-related. For me, its parked on my drum bus. It is a great unit, and the company (Michael) seems like a top-notch outfit. Pound-for-pound (or, I guess kilo-for-kilo), the Density is tough to beat. It seems like the best value out there currently, one that combines build quality, sonic quality, flexibility (500 series), feature set, and price. I think even with the shipping, a new unit is like $750 USD, so less than 400 a channel. MADNESS!!!
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Post by chessparov on Feb 19, 2024 11:44:06 GMT -6
Can plugins sufficiently do the "tape" thing? Depends on your definition of sufficiently. They do something cool. I have 2 tape machines and several tape plugins. I use all of them at different times for different purposes. Plugins have not captured the complete tape sound in my experience, but they can be very useful anyway. If you don't want to invest in a good tape machine then plugins are better than nothing. Each plugin seems to capture a different aspect of tape sound more than the others. None capture all aspects. None make a mix/master float between the speakers like my ATR 102 does. I'd demo several of them to find which one(s) do what you have in mind. I remember MJB digs that one. Coil/Silver Bullet/Audioscape 58 Pre Plugs, are getting excellent feedback too. Chris |
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Post by seawell on Feb 19, 2024 11:48:14 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Feb 19, 2024 12:45:42 GMT -6
Guessing this Plug is "Native"?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 19, 2024 15:53:39 GMT -6
I recently saw a video by Rhett Shull where he an RJ Ronquillio are talking tape decks (one specifically in that video) and it got me to wondering if plugins can adequately cover the "tape" thing or if there is simply no substitute for what the analog world can do. Digital modeling, etc. has come a long way and I'm a bit of an old soul, love tubes, analog, etc., but the reality is I can't afford a tape deck (nor can I justify it) right now. But never hurts to wonder, eh? As always, appreciate your thoughts. I've used the UA Ampex ATR and Kramer (yes it was a long time ago). At College we had an Ampex, at Uni it was a Studer although they had everything (consoles, ADAT, Pro Tools TDM etc.) if memory serves even slightly correct it's a big no. There's no rage at the machine button for a start..
Ultimately I never really understood what the appeal of tape is in the first place, why do you want crosstalk, wow, hiss and flutter ruining your tracks in this potentially sonically amazing day & age? I suppose I get it if you're after something periodically correct, apart from that I'm kind of drawing blanks. I'm sure some will mention low end peak of the resonant tape head bump "cause bass"? Or bias affecting the complex distortion curve. Wellll, I really just don't care  .. It might partly be due to some PTSD from fixing these evil things on a couple of adamant field engineering sessions? But ultimately if anyone mentions tape or splicing to me nowaday's I just say let me grab a laptop, an interface and a sledge hammer.
When it comes to plugins, after months of trying to get along with them one of the best decisions I made was simply not to use them. A bit of decent flexible tracking HW alongside a decent soft clipper plugin does me fine and as for tape in general? I'll happily leave them in era's past. If there is a love for vintage, I just think there's better ways to go about it nowaday's. Moody Blue's Nights In White Satin despite my taste for modern stuff is one of my all time favourite songs, although I don't clamour for the production and when we get to the Fleetwood Mac / Toto era things are so clean at this point that a simple mixing or mastering decision in digital can make things worse. HF limiting, rolling off early etc. there's several ways to do this without resorting to tape.
Excuse the small rant ..
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Post by Ted Swan on Feb 19, 2024 17:21:07 GMT -6
Can plugins sufficiently do the "tape" thing? Depends on your definition of sufficiently. They do something cool. I have 2 tape machines and several tape plugins. I use all of them at different times for different purposes. Plugins have not captured the complete tape sound in my experience, but they can be very useful anyway. If you don't want to invest in a good tape machine then plugins are better than nothing. Each plugin seems to capture a different aspect of tape sound more than the others. None capture all aspects. None make a mix/master float between the speakers like my ATR 102 does. I'd demo several of them to find which one(s) do what you have in mind. Completely agree with no plug really nailing all aspects, just some… Usually for me I’m tossing a UAD studer on a bunch of drum tracks, and then some UAD Ampex on drum buss, mix buss etc. There’s my color. But the peaks are still very much there. And so, like what was discussed in the gangly transients thread, I’ll put a pair of hardware preamps on the mix. Somehow, the combination of plugin color and preamp softening makes my brain think I accomplished what I would have hoped real tape would do. Just took lots of steps. Avid Heat actually ticks off a lot of the box’s I think. Lowers peaks, increases perceived volume and adds some color. In function, the result is so similar to tape. I just wish I liked how it sounded… |
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 19, 2024 17:42:49 GMT -6
I'll second the Satin recommendation. It provides this sort of tape compression and cohesion that the others don't. Others meaning UAD Studer, Tapedesk, Softube Tape, Analog Channel, Cranesong Phoenix, Avid Reel Tape, IK Tape, Magnetite, Magnetic II, pretty much all the usual suspects. I don't use Satin with the 102 preset or the UAD 102 across my mixes anymore. When I run out of cpu cycles, I'll start putting Phoenix and Tapedesk on stuff like toms and kicks. I don't drive them much at all, so they don't end up mucking up my mixes. Adding Dopamine on tracks following Satin with the GP9 A800 preset and then Satin in Type A mode after Satin with the GP9 A800 preset again is what I've settled on for the moment. Dan is right that you have to gainstage it.
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Post by bossanova on Feb 19, 2024 18:56:15 GMT -6
I'll second the Satin recommendation. It provides this sort of tape compression and cohesion that the others don't. Others meaning UAD Studer, Tapedesk, Softube Tape, Analog Channel, Cranesong Phoenix, Avid Reel Tape, IK Tape, Magnetite, Magnetic II, pretty much all the usual suspects. I don't use Satin with the 102 preset or the UAD 102 across my mixes anymore. When I run out of cpu cycles, I'll start putting Phoenix and Tapedesk on stuff like toms and kicks. I don't drive them much at all, so they don't end up mucking up my mixes. Adding Dopamine on tracks following Satin with the GP9 A800 preset and then Satin in Type A mode after Satin with the GP9 A800 preset again is what I've settled on for the moment. Dan is right that you have to gainstage it. Can you chart that last one out? It sounds interesting but I can’t tell how many instances you’re describing there. |
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Post by ab101 on Feb 19, 2024 19:16:40 GMT -6
I would love to hear a Bereich Density - Satin
Shootout
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 19, 2024 19:52:56 GMT -6
I'll second the Satin recommendation. It provides this sort of tape compression and cohesion that the others don't. Others meaning UAD Studer, Tapedesk, Softube Tape, Analog Channel, Cranesong Phoenix, Avid Reel Tape, IK Tape, Magnetite, Magnetic II, pretty much all the usual suspects. I don't use Satin with the 102 preset or the UAD 102 across my mixes anymore. When I run out of cpu cycles, I'll start putting Phoenix and Tapedesk on stuff like toms and kicks. I don't drive them much at all, so they don't end up mucking up my mixes. Adding Dopamine on tracks following Satin with the GP9 A800 preset and then Satin in Type A mode after Satin with the GP9 A800 preset again is what I've settled on for the moment. Dan is right that you have to gainstage it. Can you chart that last one out? It sounds interesting but I can’t tell how many instances you’re describing there. Two instances. Tracks: Satin A800 GP9 Dopamine A-Type Sub-Mixes/Busses: Satin A800 GP9 Satin Type A This is also a lot easier on the cpu than doing Satin Type A on tracks. Dopamine provides more punch, excitement, and compression than Satin's Type A. |
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Post by dok on Feb 19, 2024 20:02:03 GMT -6
I had a fun little (giant) tape machine a few years ago. An Akai MG1212 - 12 tracks on 1/2" tape! It was super fun to play around with and I did some tracking on it. I even managed to figure out a way to slave my 828es to it - the plan was to be able to track drums to it while live tracking everything else to digital. But then the pandemic happened and I haven't tracked a full band since. I think it sounded pretty good for what it was, but I absolutely don't believe that it sounded better than well-recorded digital, and it's really easy to overdo levels when you're trying to get a good S/N ratio, especially on something like kick drum. Very easy to move from pleasant tape saturation to ugly distortion if you're not gain staging just right. And HISS is truly omnipresent even on something in very good condition. I bought it for $20 (!) and paid Dave Segimoto at VST something like $200 to get it working and sounding good, and I only lived 20 minutes away from the shop if I had any problems with it. But if I DID have any problems with it, I needed help to load it up (100 lbs), the tapes were in limited supply, and I was often spending time just cleaning it and demagnetizing everything, and while it was a fun novelty for a while, the juice was not worth the squeeze when it came down to it.
So this is a long way of saying that even tape can't do the tape thing sometimes, because the "tape thing" depends on a ton of different factors, not the least of which is just a ton of upkeep and maintenance on a relatively self-contained little unit. I'm super glad I had the experience, though, because I no longer fetishize it and think I need it to make vibey recordings - I think all of the things my brain thought tape was a shortcut to achieving are also done with printing a finished sound to digital, which one could accomplish a lot of different ways, some cost-effective and some not.
ONE really lovely piece of kismet was that I found a batch of like 20 tapes that were being sold by some dude in the valley whose brother had a demo studio back in the early 90s with one of these units. All of the tapes still had a couple of songs that had been recorded in the demo studio. I digitized them all for posterity's sake and uploaded a few of them to YouTube. I think this is my favorite:
I don't know anything about the people who performed on those tapes or sessions but MAN what a fun thing to go through them all and be able to save them for future reference. It's not likely but if anybody who worked on those sessions was trying to find them these 30 years later, I got 'em.
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Post by maldenfilms on Feb 19, 2024 20:25:50 GMT -6
UA has a new tape plugin(s) coming out pretty soon, apparently, so we'll see how that is. Where did you see / hear about this? Can’t find mention of it anywhere and am excited to hear! |
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Post by Quint on Feb 19, 2024 21:21:05 GMT -6
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Post by sirthought on Feb 19, 2024 21:58:57 GMT -6
Real tape is a complete pain. I love my tape plugins. UAD Ampex. UAD Studer. UHe Satin. Tape Chow. I enjoy what all of them do to a track and a mix.
I could never see it worth pursuing going for a real tape in production unless you have a bunch of money and space and time that requires wasting. If you don't like the sound of tape plugs, just find something you do like. But it's not like that is the be all end all.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 19, 2024 23:09:04 GMT -6
I like my tape plugs as they do cool things. Bob Olhsson helped connect Waves with the Ampex machine they used for Kramer Tape, apparently. He said it sounded spot on to him, except for where the input was calibrated, if I recall.
They do cool things, I enjoy them. No reason you can't get analog-y sounding mixes without tape. Though I will say when I ran mixes through my Otari mx5050 mkII with Ampex 406 on it... nothing sounds like that ITB. Oh well. It's broken now. lol.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2024 1:15:28 GMT -6
“nothing sounds like that ITB. “
I used to love the UA ampex 102, and still like it but when I got my first album professionally mastered to a real 102, I realized the UA plug didn’t sound anything like that.
It was the first time the term glueing your mix together made sonic sense to me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2024 1:18:08 GMT -6
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 20, 2024 1:24:52 GMT -6
“nothing sounds like that ITB. “ I used to love the UA ampex 102, and still like it but when I got my first album professionally mastered to a real 102, I realized the UA plug didn’t sound anything like that. It was the first time the term glueing your mix together made sonic sense to me. Exactly. There's a video of Vance Powell switching between the desk mix and the 102 mix and my goodness, it's just magic to my ears. The plug is great but it isn't a 102 and real tape. |
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) can hear how my new Elly/47 FET style...
.. It might partly be due to some PTSD from fixing these evil things on a couple of adamant field engineering sessions? But ultimately if anyone mentions tape or splicing to me nowaday's I just say let me grab a laptop, an interface and a sledge hammer.
