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Post by bossanova on Feb 13, 2024 19:58:26 GMT -6
Just a reminder that you don’t need an LDC to record a hit-quality ballad  (I knew Phil used a M88 for everything but this is the first time I’ve seen/found this particular footage.) Attachments:
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 13, 2024 20:08:42 GMT -6
LOVE IT
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Post by seawell on Feb 13, 2024 20:53:09 GMT -6
Such a cool voice...I've always appreciated how he has his own sound/vibe. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by bradd on Feb 13, 2024 21:24:04 GMT -6
I used to make the mistake of trying to use the M88 like an SM58 and eating it. I also wondered why everybody talked about it being a great vocal mic when on me it sounded like spitty garbage. Once I backed off to about a foot away, I figured out what everyone was talking about. Phil clearly figured that out.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 13, 2024 22:26:16 GMT -6
There is so much folklore about Phil Collins and recording, for instance the old tale that in the Air tonight drums were recorded at home, they were not it was the Stone room at Townhouse. The M88 being used by Phil on records is another miss understood myth, and my sources on this were all VP level and above at Beyer. Phil loved the M8& for live and home demo’s he was a Beyer Endorsee as well as a Studiomaster and Fostex endorsee ( not sure he paid for any of his home gear). He did prefer Beyer in the Studio but it was usually a 740, or 834 ( on a lot of his solo stuff you can hear that tell tail gate like effect the 834 has) it works great with his usual reverb. Daryl told me there tons of videos from Genesis and solo project demos floating around that were billed as studio footage. I guess what I’m saying is this definitely one of those where unless you were there don’t believe what you hear. Oh the reason I was so interested to begin with, I had a client who believed all the hype and bought into the M88 hype and was the Joel Olestien of the m88, so I had to ask.
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Post by recordingengineer on Feb 13, 2024 22:29:46 GMT -6
I used to make the mistake of trying to use the M88 like an SM58 and eating it. I also wondered why everybody talked about it being a great vocal mic when on me it sounded like spitty garbage. Once I backed off to about a foot away, I figured out what everyone was talking about. Phil clearly figured that out. You mean eating a LDC in an absolutely-dead tiny room isn’t the only way to get a truly pro sound? |
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Post by bossanova on Feb 13, 2024 22:39:08 GMT -6
There is so much folklore about Phil Collins and recording, for instance the old tale that in the Air tonight drums were recorded at home, they were not it was the Stone room at Townhouse. The M88 being used by Phil on records is another miss understood myth, and my sources on this were all VP level and above at Beyer. Phil loved the M8& for live and home demo’s he was a Beyer Endorsee as well as a Studiomaster and Fostex endorsee ( not sure he paid for any of his home gear). He did prefer Beyer in the Studio but it was usually a 740, or 834 ( on a lot of his solo stuff you can hear that tell tail gate like effect the 834 has) it works great with his usual reverb. Daryl told me there tons of videos from Genesis and solo project demos floating around that were billed as studio footage. I guess what I’m saying is this definitely one of those where unless you were there don’t believe what you hear. Oh the reason I was so interested to begin with, I had a client who believed all the hype and bought into the M88 hype and was the Joel Olestien of the m88, so I had to ask. I can see that being the case for some recordings, but there’s definitely footage of him tracking *what appears to be* keeper vocals with the M88, like with George Martin on the Abbey Road Medley here: |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 13, 2024 23:58:41 GMT -6
There is so much folklore about Phil Collins and recording, for instance the old tale that in the Air tonight drums were recorded at home, they were not it was the Stone room at Townhouse. The M88 being used by Phil on records is another miss understood myth, and my sources on this were all VP level and above at Beyer. Phil loved the M8& for live and home demo’s he was a Beyer Endorsee as well as a Studiomaster and Fostex endorsee ( not sure he paid for any of his home gear). He did prefer Beyer in the Studio but it was usually a 740, or 834 ( on a lot of his solo stuff you can hear that tell tail gate like effect the 834 has) it works great with his usual reverb. Daryl told me there tons of videos from Genesis and solo project demos floating around that were billed as studio footage. I guess what I’m saying is this definitely one of those where unless you were there don’t believe what you hear. Oh the reason I was so interested to begin with, I had a client who believed all the hype and bought into the M88 hype and was the Joel Olestien of the m88, so I had to ask. That is some informative and funny shit ericn ! Phil's vocals are so amazing. I would say underrated but have to correct when considering the millions of albums he sold, rightfully. Against All Odds. Just such an amazing, beautiful song and such an incredible vocal performance. Edit: and thanks for sharing. Interesting in that video the capture from that angle and how warbly his performance is. It's not airtight, but it's damn good and what we need more of today. Just sing it great, sing it honest and don't jack with it all day long in the computer. Of course, might not be the take that they kept because who can sing a keeper in that era with a person and a camera walking around you? I digress. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2024 2:50:43 GMT -6
Mike and take definitely have a special tone, we don’t know what else we are hearing(pre/comp/eq), but you can already hear how it would cut through a mix.
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 14, 2024 2:57:55 GMT -6
Just a reminder that you don’t need an LDC to record a hit-quality ballad (I knew Phil used a M88 for everything but this is the first time I’ve seen/found this particular footage.) I have that same vintage of 88 (silver head basket 1980) I should post a quick vocal clip of me using it. You need a very good sounding room as you have to really back off the mic and open it up with some preamp gain! Phil is a great singer - a unique intimacy to his tone - buy he's done better sounding vocals on We Can't Dance album (Hold on my heart) singing into a LDC (C12 I think) Towards the end of his career he used a Brauner VM1 and I preferred the vocal detail it gave him. But those belted out Genesis rock tracks and using that little A&H Limiter with the 88 - it was his sound for sure. |
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Post by enlav on Feb 14, 2024 7:38:57 GMT -6
It's hard to keep up with the various m88 threads but has it been determined the different iterations sound very different?
If it's anything like 421s, the one I have from svart is drastically different from my 2020s one.
I might be exaggerating the difference. Been a while since I recorded the comparisons.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 14, 2024 12:17:28 GMT -6
That first video certainly doesn't sound like a (the) final vocal. (It would be these days - I mean they could have tuned that and it would have been...more in tune). It's just the natural ebb-and-flow/wow and flutter of pitch center. I really, really, really get sucked in with tuning. I pride myself on being able to tune without people noticing...but I've really been hearing it asd just being too perfect lately. Maybe this is completely over-thinking it, but I think when I hear a vocal that sounds fantastic, perfectly tuned and well done - I just think "that was tuned...had to be." Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm starting to get that feeling I get when I (possible sexist comment coming) see a really beautiful woman, but she's just caked in Kardashian makeup. Yeah - she's super hot - but I wanna see the real face. Don't hide - some imperfections are sexy. I also wonder at some subconscious way, we feel more at ease when singers aren't perfect. And I'm actually being serious...when you hear someone not being perfect, maybe it causes some level of vulnerability in the vocal. IDK...I'm still somewhat addicted to tuners - and leaving something flat or sharp to listen to for eternity might just drive me to an early grave.
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Post by ragan on Feb 14, 2024 12:27:11 GMT -6
I think tuning pretty much ruins vocals, and music in general.
I’m sure I would feel differently if I was making a living trying to mix other people who expect to sound like the radio.
But, I think it ruins music. I have zero connection to tuned vocals and gridded everything. When I listen to music that was produced in that way, I feel the same level of connection to it that I feel when listening to a Doritos commercial or something, which is to say none. I’m just completely ambivalent to it as a listener. I know somewhere way back along the way, someone had some creativity and passion about the track, but my mind/heart/soul is just like “sorry, it sounds like a beige painted wall”.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 14, 2024 12:34:49 GMT -6
I just know back at EMI/Abbey Road in the early/mid 60's... Phil would be required to wear a jacket.  |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 14, 2024 12:36:33 GMT -6
I think tuning pretty much ruins vocals, and music in general. I’m sure I would feel differently if I was making a living trying to mix other people who expect to sound like the radio. But, I think it ruins music. I have zero connection to tuned vocals and gridded everything. When I listen to music that was produced in that way, I feel the same level of connection to it that I feel when listening to a Doritos commercial or something, which is to say none. I’m just completely ambivalent to it as a listener. I know somewhere way back along the way, someone had some creativity and passion about the track, but my mind/heart/soul is just like “sorry, it sounds like a beige painted wall”. You had me up until the Doritos part. What would Super Bowl be without them? (Less fattening) I agree generally on Pitch Correction though. Except in a crunch. Cheetos never prosper! Chris |
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Post by askomiko on Feb 14, 2024 12:59:52 GMT -6
I used to make the mistake of trying to use the M88 like an SM58 and eating it. I also wondered why everybody talked about it being a great vocal mic when on me it sounded like spitty garbage. Once I backed off to about a foot away, I figured out what everyone was talking about. Phil clearly figured that out. Yup, gigantic huge proximity boost. |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 14, 2024 13:05:08 GMT -6
I think tuning pretty much ruins vocals, and music in general. I’m sure I would feel differently if I was making a living trying to mix other people who expect to sound like the radio. But, I think it ruins music. I have zero connection to tuned vocals and gridded everything. When I listen to music that was produced in that way, I feel the same level of connection to it that I feel when listening to a Doritos commercial or something, which is to say none. I’m just completely ambivalent to it as a listener. I know somewhere way back along the way, someone had some creativity and passion about the track, but my mind/heart/soul is just like “sorry, it sounds like a beige painted wall”. I'm with you on this. Sadly, I'm going to be spending a good portion of my weekend with Melodyne. I've heard the demos and there is a lot of wonky singing... Help be Jeebus |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 14, 2024 13:12:10 GMT -6
That first video certainly doesn't sound like a (the) final vocal. (It would be these days - I mean they could have tuned that and it would have been...more in tune). It's just the natural ebb-and-flow/wow and flutter of pitch center. I really, really, really get sucked in with tuning. I pride myself on being able to tune without people noticing...but I've really been hearing it asd just being too perfect lately. Maybe this is completely over-thinking it, but I think when I hear a vocal that sounds fantastic, perfectly tuned and well done - I just think "that was tuned...had to be." Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm starting to get that feeling I get when I (possible sexist comment coming) see a really beautiful woman, but she's just caked in Kardashian makeup. Yeah - she's super hot - but I wanna see the real face. Don't hide - some imperfections are sexy. I also wonder at some subconscious way, we feel more at ease when singers aren't perfect. And I'm actually being serious...when you hear someone not being perfect, maybe it causes some level of vulnerability in the vocal. IDK...I'm still somewhat addicted to tuners - and leaving something flat or sharp to listen to for eternity might just drive me to an early grave. I teach some singing classes each week. I’ve discovered a 14 year old girl with the most incredible voice. She auditioning for Brit School (uk version of Fame Academy I guess) Anyway, she can sing a Lady Gaga hit like “I’ll never love again” SM58 hand held into Cubase during her class. Every single note, every single syllable is perfectly in tune. 1 pass - 100% perfection. Some people are just extremely gifted singers. I want to write some songs for her and I’m trying to agree a deal with her parents. She’s has a chance of increasing her profile - no question about it. |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 14, 2024 13:26:15 GMT -6
That first video certainly doesn't sound like a (the) final vocal. (It would be these days - I mean they could have tuned that and it would have been...more in tune). It's just the natural ebb-and-flow/wow and flutter of pitch center. I really, really, really get sucked in with tuning. I pride myself on being able to tune without people noticing...but I've really been hearing it asd just being too perfect lately. Maybe this is completely over-thinking it, but I think when I hear a vocal that sounds fantastic, perfectly tuned and well done - I just think "that was tuned...had to be." Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm starting to get that feeling I get when I (possible sexist comment coming) see a really beautiful woman, but she's just caked in Kardashian makeup. Yeah - she's super hot - but I wanna see the real face. Don't hide - some imperfections are sexy. I also wonder at some subconscious way, we feel more at ease when singers aren't perfect. And I'm actually being serious...when you hear someone not being perfect, maybe it causes some level of vulnerability in the vocal. IDK...I'm still somewhat addicted to tuners - and leaving something flat or sharp to listen to for eternity might just drive me to an early grave. I teach some singing classes each week. I’ve discovered a 14 year old girl with the most incredible voice. She auditioning for Brit School (uk version of Fame Academy I guess) Anyway, she can sing a Lady Gaga hit like “I’ll never love again” SM58 hand held into Cubase during her class. Every single note, every single syllable is perfectly in tune. 1 pass - 100% perfection. Some people are just extremely gifted singers. I want to write some songs for her and I’m trying to agree a deal with her parents. She’s has a chance of increasing her profile - no question about it. Singers like that are amazing. I saw Tony Visconti at TapeOpCon and he said there were times when Bowie would ask him to add the doubled vocals and he'd realize that it was in, and Bowie was that consistent that it was hard to tell there was a double. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 14, 2024 13:47:27 GMT -6
And that Ariana Grande (I think it is) video someone posted here where she is punching in harmonies as fast as the guy can move back to the marker. Absolutely amazing.
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Post by ab101 on Feb 14, 2024 13:59:59 GMT -6
I suspect that Phil learned a lot about vocals from Peter Gabriel, either directly, or by simply observing for a long time.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,966
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Post by ericn on Feb 14, 2024 14:06:45 GMT -6
I suspect that Phil learned a lot about vocals from Peter Gabriel, either directly, or by simply observing for a long time. If you listen to early Genesis, before Peter left, on the few tunes Phil is featured you can hear him trying to emulate Peter! |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 14, 2024 14:11:54 GMT -6
I suspect that Phil learned a lot about vocals from Peter Gabriel, either directly, or by simply observing for a long time. Collins went to the Barbra Speake stage school at 12 years old - his mum was the schools agent. He’s been singing on stage since a little kid. Also has amazing pitch and timing too with his drums, another incredibly gifted natural musician. I had the pleasure of chatting to him back stage at Wembley stadium when Genesis were doing the Invidible touch tour back in 1986 (iirc) a very ordinary guy in person. And then when he got on stage …. Boom - this massive vocal delivery and tour de force drumming! |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 14, 2024 20:05:44 GMT -6
I teach some singing classes each week. I’ve discovered a 14 year old girl with the most incredible voice. She auditioning for Brit School (uk version of Fame Academy I guess) Anyway, she can sing a Lady Gaga hit like “I’ll never love again” SM58 hand held into Cubase during her class. Every single note, every single syllable is perfectly in tune. 1 pass - 100% perfection. Some people are just extremely gifted singers. I want to write some songs for her and I’m trying to agree a deal with her parents. She’s has a chance of increasing her profile - no question about it. Singers like that are amazing. I saw Tony Visconti at TapeOpCon and he said there were times when Bowie would ask him to add the doubled vocals and he'd realize that it was in, and Bowie was that consistent that it was hard to tell there was a double. GOAT. |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 14, 2024 21:36:16 GMT -6
And that Ariana Grande (I think it is) video someone posted here where she is punching in harmonies as fast as the guy can move back to the marker. Absolutely amazing. I haven't seen that. got a link? I suspect that Phil learned a lot about vocals from Peter Gabriel, either directly, or by simply observing for a long time. How could he not? I suspect that Phil learned a lot about vocals from Peter Gabriel, either directly, or by simply observing for a long time. Collins went to the Barbra Speake stage school at 12 years old - his mum was the schools agent. He’s been singing on stage since a little kid. Also has amazing pitch and timing too with his drums, another incredibly gifted natural musician. I had the pleasure of chatting to him back stage at Wembley stadium when Genesis were doing the Invidible touch tour back in 1986 (iirc) a very ordinary guy in person. And then when he got on stage …. Boom - this massive vocal delivery and tour de force drumming! I saw that tour when I was in High School. Phil and the band were on it. The drum duet with Chester Thompson KILLED! Singers like that are amazing. I saw Tony Visconti at TapeOpCon and he said there were times when Bowie would ask him to add the doubled vocals and he'd realize that it was in, and Bowie was that consistent that it was hard to tell there was a double. GOAT. Right? |
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(I knew Phil used a M88 for everything but this is the first time I’ve seen/found this particular footage.)
