|
|
Post by RealNoob on Feb 6, 2024 19:26:04 GMT -6
Cheers!
I noticed over time that one issue that requires lots of work from me is wrestling transients without over compressing to arrive at the place where the mix is still dynamic but transients aren't gangly - popping out here and there.
Beginning to work in Luna, I am finding that tape sims, saturation and compression seem to work together to arrive there, as well as multi-stage compression when needed.
Any thoughts on how YOU tame the transient beast?
|
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Feb 6, 2024 19:40:01 GMT -6
I found that soft clipping tubes, transformers and/or tape is so much better at controlling transients than compression. The day I learned that my mixes took a huge leap forward. Compression for dynamics, tubes/transformers/tape for transients, that’s my outlook. Ymmv
Side note: I hate to say it but I think hardware compressors are way better than plugins at actually taming transients.
|
|
|
|
Post by smashlord on Feb 6, 2024 20:16:07 GMT -6
Tubes and transformers help. My mix bus usually has a HW compressor followed by an API 5500 and a pair of AS EQP-As, which I find helps a good deal. There is usually a tape sim after that.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Feb 6, 2024 21:38:52 GMT -6
Clipping and saturatorsare my friends when dealing with spikey drums. You can clip a snare a few dB without hearing any sucking artifacts like comps and limiters do. Subtle tape type compression goes along way too.
It might sound like I'm into distortion. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do a lot of acoustic recordings. I never want to hear saturation and clipping in any obvious way. I just use them to control things that are out of control.
|
|
|
|
Post by copperx on Feb 6, 2024 22:01:27 GMT -6
This will sound insane but when recording, lately I've fone go 1073 style pre into CAPI VP28 in line mode before other processing, then into A/D.
Then, when mixing, tracks go first through VP28s, processing (if any) then 1073.
I've made lots of tests and to me, everything sounds much more finished this way. I'm mostly adding distortion, obviously.
The VP28 is a very nice compressor (ha!) (it does tame spikey transients for sure). And if you set the input gain to minimum and output gain to maximum, it has a very familiar color.
|
|
|
|
Post by OtisGreying on Feb 6, 2024 22:23:14 GMT -6
This will sound insane but when recording, lately I've fone go 1073 style pre into CAPI VP28 in line mode before other processing, then into A/D. Then, when mixing, tracks go first through VP28s, processing (if any) then 1073. I've made lots of tests and to me, everything sounds much more finished this way. I'm mostly adding distortion, obviously. The VP28 is a very nice compressor (ha!) (it does tame spikey transients for sure). And if you set the input gain to minimum and output gain to maximum, it has a very familiar color. When mixing how hard you find yourself hitting the VP28's? Are you sending stems through hardware insert to the pair than bouncing it back in? |
|
|
|
Post by copperx on Feb 6, 2024 23:32:23 GMT -6
When mixing how hard you find yourself hitting the VP28's? Are you sending stems through hardware insert to the pair than bouncing it back in? When mixing I usually set the input gain to minimum and output gain to maximum. According to Jeff Steiger, that's how many engineers ran API console channels (not the 2bus). If the track needs extra weight, I'll bump up the input gain one or two clicks, and decrease the output by the same amount. |
|
|
|
Post by lowlou on Feb 7, 2024 5:12:23 GMT -6
Spectra 1964 ultra fast limiters also help to transparently tame transients.
What is important is to get rid of transients along the way. Not all transients at the master bus. a bit of transient eating on individual tracks, a bit more on busses, then on the master. Each summing junctions has its transient informations cumulate. They rebuild themselves, literally ! It grows like weed if left unchecked, and then all your compressors overshoot, you can't push you gear as much, because you reach their limits earlier with stupid transient excursions... And transients ain't music. No reason to keep them. Bill from Spectra1964 did a great podcast about all this. You can find it on the Spectra1964 website.
Once you're aware of it it's actually easy and fun to distribute evenly transformers, clipping devices, tubes, limiters, all across the mix.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 7, 2024 11:19:11 GMT -6
Any thoughts on how YOU tame the transient beast? Silver Bullet before whichever compressor of choice I'm using. |
|
|
|
Post by enlav on Feb 7, 2024 11:27:53 GMT -6
This will sound insane but when recording, lately I've fone go 1073 style pre into CAPI VP28 in line mode before other processing, then into A/D. Then, when mixing, tracks go first through VP28s, processing (if any) then 1073. While the second step doesn't apply as much (since the A>N processing wouldn't allow processing between, if I'm not mistaken), this sounds a lot like the Silverbullet.
I should really try this in mono with the VP1290 and a Capi 312, thanks for the post/instructions.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 7, 2024 15:10:10 GMT -6
This will sound insane but when recording, lately I've fone go 1073 style pre into CAPI VP28 in line mode before other processing, then into A/D. Then, when mixing, tracks go first through VP28s, processing (if any) then 1073. While the second step doesn't apply as much (since the A>N processing wouldn't allow processing between, if I'm not mistaken), this sounds a lot like the Silverbullet.
That was me pre-SBullet 15-20 years ago. That was a long time ago, and IMO - still valid, although there are better options now. |
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 7, 2024 16:45:54 GMT -6
I’ve been pushing hard into those transformer boxes I’ve talked about a bunch. They’re excellent at smoothing off the transients and adding a pleasant touch of harmonic distortion to my tracks. On a current project I’m pushing a pair of Belcleres hard enough that my converter(Lynx n) is clipping a bit as well. On a good mix, it really is the magic fairy dust for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Feb 7, 2024 16:49:12 GMT -6
While the second step doesn't apply as much (since the A>N processing wouldn't allow processing between, if I'm not mistaken), this sounds a lot like the Silverbullet.
That was me pre-SBullet 15-20 years ago. That was a long time ago, and IMO - still valid, although there are better options now. I used to use my 1073 clones for this before I got an SB Mk1. The thing I discovered is that non-boutique line input transformers actually sound really good and I got great results blowing up my TNCs just enough on mix buss. Many clones don't have transformer balanced line input, I think it matters quite a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by lowlou on Feb 8, 2024 4:42:14 GMT -6
I’ve been pushing hard into those transformer boxes I’ve talked about a bunch. They’re excellent at smoothing off the transients and adding a pleasant touch of harmonic distortion to my tracks. On a current project I’m pushing a pair of Belcleres hard enough that my converter(Lynx n) is clipping a bit as well. On a good mix, it really is the magic fairy dust for me. Finally I bought one metal box yesterday, fitted with BBC LL/76 trannies  . Which one do you use ? cheers ! Edit : oops you answered in your initial message sorry ! |
|
|
|
Post by andersmv on Feb 8, 2024 11:10:37 GMT -6
Fair warning, sometimes it’s better to let things breathe. I got obsessed with the whole crest factor idea for a good year or so. Started hitting things a little harder during tracking, got a little heavier handed with clippers on individual instruments. Hit my API console a lot harder to where rogue peaks from kicks drums or a vocal were completely gone and the waveform looked a lot better.
The problem is, once you hit that point, you can’t be as heavy with you clipping and limiting on the master bus when you’re trying to get the mix louder. For mix bus processing (with clippers especially), it sounded a lot more natural and less “bad” when I just left a lot of those random transients breathe through on the mix and dealt with them as a whole over the whole mix. When you start stacking your clipping, it get nasty really quickly.
Clipping aside, sometimes adding in things like transformer and tape processing can just make things worse, as they start adding extra harmonics in other areas, even though they’re shaving some peaks. It’s all a balancing act obviously. The way I learn and get better is going to extremes and slowly working my way to some middle ground. At this point, I’ve landed more in the direction of “let the mix breathe and keep it dynamic, then do the heavier transient shaving to the overall mix”. I’ve been getting louder mixes that way that don’t sound as destroyed as when I was micromanaging and being obsessed with the visual aspect of the waveforms.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Feb 8, 2024 11:16:20 GMT -6
Usually just eq the offending frequencies down a little. Trying to dynamically tame certain frequencies is a losing battle.
|
|
|
|
Post by lowlou on Feb 8, 2024 12:21:13 GMT -6
I guess it depends what genre of music you mix. Electronic music with a competitive loudness target, forget about doing the heavy lifting on the 2bus. For folk genres, couldn't say honestly . |
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2024 17:20:11 GMT -6
Fair warning, sometimes it’s better to let things breathe. I got obsessed with the whole crest factor idea for a good year or so. Started hitting things a little harder during tracking, got a little heavier handed with clippers on individual instruments. Hit my API console a lot harder to where rogue peaks from kicks drums or a vocal were completely gone and the waveform looked a lot better. The problem is, once you hit that point, you can’t be as heavy with you clipping and limiting on the master bus when you’re trying to get the mix louder. For mix bus processing (with clippers especially), it sounded a lot more natural and less “bad” when I just left a lot of those random transients breathe through on the mix and dealt with them as a whole over the whole mix. When you start stacking your clipping, it get nasty really quickly. Clipping aside, sometimes adding in things like transformer and tape processing can just make things worse, as they start adding extra harmonics in other areas, even though they’re shaving some peaks. It’s all a balancing act obviously. The way I learn and get better is going to extremes and slowly working my way to some middle ground. At this point, I’ve landed more in the direction of “let the mix breathe and keep it dynamic, then do the heavier transient shaving to the overall mix”. I’ve been getting louder mixes that way that don’t sound as destroyed as when I was micromanaging and being obsessed with the visual aspect of the waveforms. Excellent point! And one I actually was dealing with today! |
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2024 17:22:56 GMT -6
I’ve been pushing hard into those transformer boxes I’ve talked about a bunch. They’re excellent at smoothing off the transients and adding a pleasant touch of harmonic distortion to my tracks. On a current project I’m pushing a pair of Belcleres hard enough that my converter(Lynx n) is clipping a bit as well. On a good mix, it really is the magic fairy dust for me. Finally I bought one metal box yesterday, fitted with BBC LL/76 trannies . Which one do you use ? cheers ! Edit : oops you answered in your initial message sorry ! Nice! I have a few from him! They all do something a little different. Super fun and they don’t break the bank like some outboard. |
|
|
|
Post by nnajar on Feb 9, 2024 11:49:58 GMT -6
EQ
|
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Feb 9, 2024 22:31:20 GMT -6
I had a revelation earlier today where I was trying to figure out why the intro /rhythm track for "Every Breath You Take" is so open with regard to transients and yet so dynamically tight/controlled the same time. (I'm working on a song with some similar sounds and was using the original, non-remastered Singles comp as a reference.)
After trying various techniques to keep stray guitar and drum transients in line (the drums are a sampled kit so I have some leeway there), I found that I still wasn't getting the control I wanted by using limiters and clippers and the like, and I was determined not to use any of the category of (VST) tools that they wouldn't have had back then.
And then when I was driving around this afternoon to pick my kid up from school I had a thought that the arrangement was making the difference with Andy Summers playing that riff of unbroken 8th notes and the drums and bass in the same rhythmic groove.
So for kicks I went home and added an experimental guitar part with a steady stream of unbroken 8ths, just a touch of compression on the buses, and that did it. Mind you, my mix still has all sorts of frequency imbalances and the like that are not there in a mastered Police classic, but that more cohesive dynamic thing doesn't seem so mysterious now, at least in that context.
|
|
|
|
Post by RealNoob on Feb 10, 2024 22:38:13 GMT -6
Thanks all. Going back to do what I did on the previous album, running all provided tracks through hardware: Neve Tape sim, just a touch to peaks with Xpressor and hitting the Iron Age EQs (cinemag trannies).
|
|
|
|
Post by anders on Feb 11, 2024 1:52:39 GMT -6
I had a revelation earlier today where I was trying to figure out why the intro /rhythm track for "Every Breath You Take" is so open with regard to transients and yet so dynamically tight/controlled the same time.[…] Interesting point about the guitar line! I would say that the absence of a hihat makes a difference as well; there is more space, both frequency-wise and in the subdivisions for what else there is to stand out, and contrast the steady chug of guitar and bass. |
|
|
|
Post by niklas1073 on Feb 11, 2024 4:11:26 GMT -6
I feel this is a really tricky one, and the points come up in many replies above I believe. It's not hard to get rid of transients, eq, riding faders, some compression, maybe de-esser, and sure the dirt boxes or tape emulation will take care of the rest. But damn you've often lost a lot along the way there. I notice it when I feel I've reached the goal of smooth and nice and think it sounds good... I double check with the original sound and I realise I've screwed up all the air and space and dynamics along with it. I have never used or learned to use drum samples... have to learn it in the future for sure... but I've had drums to mix which I couldn't make sense of due to bad recording and bad transients, then someone else has made them sound decent with samples, so I believe that could also be a better way to the goal. So yeah, slight transients I think shaves easily off with gentle pin pointing eq notches, the right compressor (mixed vocals the other day where I had a presence boost/transient that was due to the UAD LA2a, switched that for Arturias STA and the transient was gone). But I think this is again one of those shit in shit out situations, need to carefully figure this out during tracking. I've come to the conclusion that with the digital mixing you can track really really smooth and even dark committing to the sound at that stage and not have do deal with transients later. There will anyhow be enough high end and clarity to dig out when needed which is way easier than killing transients I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Feb 12, 2024 22:51:19 GMT -6
This is kinda related to something I was saying in another thread: just because a well made digital mastering compressor can swat down an impressive amount of fast transients does not mean that that will actually sound good.
|
|
. Which one do you use ? cheers ! Edit : oops you answered in your initial message sorry !
