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Post by bluesholyman on Feb 5, 2024 9:54:20 GMT -6
I had an interesting talk with a songwriting friend the other day who was in a zoom session for "something" in the music industry and there was talk of Atmos being a new baseline standard for streaming and [other?] outlets for recorded music. There was some level of implication that Atmos was being used as a gatekeeper of sorts to restrict who plays in the "big leagues" (for lack of better description.) I could see it as a way to keep bedroom engineer/producers out since it requires a more expensive setup than a Scarlett, mac, and a Rode or SM7b. I noticed Atmos has been around for about 10 years so seems a bit late for such a move, unless its gaining significant momentum in certain realms.
Figured I'd ask up hear just to get peoples take on the matter.
Carvel
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Post by ninworks on Feb 5, 2024 10:14:52 GMT -6
Until the mass-consumer market has an inexpensive way to listen to ATMOS stuff, I don't think it's going to be commercially feasible. Even then they have to care about the immersive part of it. I don't think most non-tekky people will. Even if they could hear the difference. People listen to music playback on their phone speakers for Christ's sake. It doesn't get much worse than that. Quadraphonic failed back in the day and the other Dolby formats didn't really take hold on the mass market either, so why would ATMOS be any different?
I think the industry is trying to force-feed the market so they have no other choice. It could be they are trying to eliminate the competition. I dunno. We'll just have to wait and see how it goes. I wish the major labels, with all of my heart, the WORST of luck.
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Post by noob on Feb 5, 2024 10:15:48 GMT -6
Definitely, it's another way of gating off the industry from the average person. Also, I'm sure studio monitor companies are pushing it heavy, because they sell several times more speakers that way. That being said, I don't see it ever being as popular as stereo. There's something very pure and simple about having two ears and two speakers. The technology we use on a day to day basis has a long way to go before that becomes standard by any means.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 5, 2024 10:19:55 GMT -6
They should focus on getting atmos mixes not to sound like hot ass first.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 5, 2024 10:20:25 GMT -6
I don't think it's the gear companies pushing it anymore than they ever did. Sure they would benefit from it, but I think it all boils down to the major labels in the industry. Unless they have skin in the manufacturing game, that part won't be of interest to them. If they're not making any money from gear sales then why would they care? We all know how greedy the labels are.
They aren't signing self-produced artists anyway for the most part. The independent labels handle most of that. They are opening up a huge opportunity for some other entity to come in and blow them out of the water.
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Post by noob on Feb 5, 2024 10:24:06 GMT -6
I don't think it's the gear companies pushing it anymore than they ever did. Sure they would benefit from it, but I think it all boils down to the major labels in the industry. Unless they have skin in the manufacturing game, that part won't be of interest to them. If they're not making any money from gear sales then why would they care? I don't think the speaker companies are the major players, they just sell x3 more speakers with it, so it's good for profits. I think Apple has a lot to do with it though. Apple loves to control the direction of things, and imo it's their way of trying to pry everyone off of spotify and back onto their platform, a market they dominated during the early 2000's iTunes era. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 5, 2024 10:29:16 GMT -6
I don't think it's the gear companies pushing it anymore than they ever did. Sure they would benefit from it, but I think it all boils down to the major labels in the industry. Unless they have skin in the manufacturing game, that part won't be of interest to them. If they're not making any money from gear sales then why would they care? I don't think the speaker companies are the major players, they just sell x3 more speakers with it, so it's good for profits. I think Apple has a lot to do with it though. Apple loves to control the direction of things, and imo it's their way of trying to pry everyone off of spotify and back onto their platform, a market they dominated during the early 2000's iTunes era. I’d happily go to Apple Music if their interface didn’t suck so hard compared to Spotify’s. And everything I own with a computer chip in it is made by Apple. Spotify is king imo. |
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Post by lowlou on Feb 5, 2024 10:32:17 GMT -6
The Richard Devine Atmos electronic set at Naam with a dozen Genelec speakers led me to believe speaker manufacturers are definitely doing all they can to popularize Atmos among the professionals.
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Post by andersmv on Feb 5, 2024 10:32:44 GMT -6
They should focus on getting atmos mixes not to sound like hot ass first. Absolutely. I'm about to do a lot of testing and experimenting with atmos for binaural specifically (even down to recording things differently). I'm not going to bother with it until I think I can do something "good" in atmos and not just buy into it as a cash cow. They've approached this ass backwards and they're expecting us to figure it out and make it good. |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 5, 2024 10:33:30 GMT -6
The Richard Devine Atmos electronic set a Naam with a dozen Genelec speakers led me to believe speaker manufacturers are definitely doing all they can to popularize Atmos among the professionals. Barefoot just spit out a $2000 pair of speakers with mounting hardware built into the back. Everyone's trying pretty hard. |
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2024 11:50:14 GMT -6
The Richard Devine Atmos electronic set at Naam with a dozen Genelec speakers led me to believe speaker manufacturers are definitely doing all they can to popularize Atmos among the professionals. Speaker manufacturers are definitely seeing the light of Atmos as a way to move more boxes, but I also see that they are starting to understand that overall there is more profit in selling a $10K pair of monitors vs a $ 12K ATMOS rig. They are seeing a slight increase in system budgets but just like when DVD audio and SACD were billed as the next big things you will see guys who were running a pair of say ATC 50’s ATMOS upgrade built around ATC 20’s. |
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Post by seawell on Feb 5, 2024 11:57:27 GMT -6
The main thing that bothers me is that there are flat out lies that keep getting repeated(particularly by YouTubers). For instance, all of this hype really got kicked up last year over the rumor that Apple Music wouldn't consider your song for a playlist unless it had an Atmos version. Well, you can check today and there are still songs playlisted that are stereo. The assumption along with that rumor was that next, Apple, Spotify, etc..wouldn't allow your music on the platform at all without an Atmos version but that's still not true and I don't ever see that happening.
There was a Produce Like a Pro video just last week about the new Audient Auria. In the comments, Warren said "Mixing in Immersive is important because it's in every Movie Theatre, every video game is in binaural now, Netflix requires all music to be mixed for it, Apple Music, Tidal and Spotify very soon." Funny enough, I had just gotten an email that same day from my licensing rep that a song I mixed/mastered was going to be on a Netflix show on 2/28...and there's no Atmos version of it. I replied to Warren to let him know that but as of now...no response.
For some reason these things are still getting repeated as if they are already fact or inevitable and I think that's driving a lot of the FOMO.
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Post by drbill on Feb 5, 2024 12:35:50 GMT -6
When someone says "ATMOS" I say......  |
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Post by bluesholyman on Feb 5, 2024 12:40:24 GMT -6
That being said, I don't see it ever being as popular as stereo. There's something very pure and simple about having two ears and two speakers. You have only two ears? The Atmos guy told me I had seven, I just can't see the other 5. |
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Post by seawell on Feb 5, 2024 12:46:32 GMT -6
Just to add one more thing.. I think it's headphones or bust. If they cannot figure out a way to make the binaural render sound better then it is D.O.A. The reason being, as others have mentioned here on the forum, music is very rarely a foreground event any longer. The government could do so some sort of grant program and send everyone a free, proper Atmos speaker rig for every single home in America and people still wouldn't sit still and listen to music. For better or worse, it's going to be consumed on headphones, earbuds and phone speakers. Unfortunately on those playback mediums, it's pretty shockingly bad 9 times out of 10.
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2024 13:36:49 GMT -6
Just to add one more thing.. I think it's headphones or bust. If they cannot figure out a way to make the binaural render sound better then it is D.O.A. The reason being, as others have mentioned here on the forum, music is very rarely a foreground event any longer. The government could do so some sort of grant program and send everyone a free, proper Atmos speaker rig for every single home in America and people still wouldn't sit still and listen to music. For better or worse, it's going to be consumed on headphones, earbuds and phone speakers. Unfortunately on those playback mediums, it's pretty shockingly bad 9 times out of 10. What will make or Break ATMOS is what has been the downfall of all Surround formats without video, the Car. They are go to need to make it both wow and consistent in the auto, they need to also think about podcasts and other non music presentation. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 5, 2024 13:58:09 GMT -6
They should focus on getting atmos mixes not to sound like hot ass first. This. It's classist gatekeeping and it's bullshit. No one wants this crap. It's got nothing to do with the cultural standards in pop music, it seems to actually undo some of the standards. The higher royalty proposal taking $ away from the pool for those NOT using it; Holy F. They don't pay comic book writers more because they're IP is published in color, now, do they? Pay scale incentives that negatively impact everyone else's bottom line are inherently wrong. I'd throw my quadraphonic records and surround sound Blue-Rays on their lawn in protest....except I don't have any! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 5, 2024 14:19:18 GMT -6
They should focus on getting atmos mixes not to sound like hot ass first. This. It's classist gatekeeping and it's bullshit. No one wants this crap. It's got nothing to do with the cultural standards in pop music, it seems to actually undo some of the standards. The higher royalty proposal taking $ away from the pool for those NOT using it; Holy F. They don't pay comic book writers more because they're IP is published in color, now, do they? Pay scale incentives that negatively impact everyone else's bottom line are inherently wrong. I'd throw my quadraphonic records and surround sound Blue-Rays on their lawn in protest....except I don't have any! Wait...so are songwriters making less because the label didn't offer the song in Atmos? |
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2024 14:41:33 GMT -6
I’m sure someone somewhere is trying very hard to convince everyone that the consumer will pay more for ATMOS streaming, the labels are all drooling thinking not only will we all want the latest releases in ATMOS but they will think “ hey we will get everyone to pay more again for all their deep catalog favorites in ATMOS”. Except in the age of streaming that’s going to be a hard sell. Plus the actual streamers will have to start thinking about how much more storage and bandwidth all that extra data is going to mean. But they will all say “ it worked with CD”, forgetting that digital downloads their last great hope lead to file sharing that almost wiped them out.
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2024 14:42:52 GMT -6
They should focus on getting atmos mixes not to sound like hot ass first. This. It's classist gatekeeping and it's bullshit. No one wants this crap. It's got nothing to do with the cultural standards in pop music, it seems to actually undo some of the standards. The higher royalty proposal taking $ away from the pool for those NOT using it; Holy F. They don't pay comic book writers more because they're IP is published in color, now, do they? Pay scale incentives that negatively impact everyone else's bottom line are inherently wrong. I'd throw my quadraphonic records and surround sound Blue-Rays on their lawn in protest....except I don't have any! Quad reel to reel tapes would make the biggest mess😁 |
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Post by seawell on Feb 5, 2024 14:50:53 GMT -6
This. It's classist gatekeeping and it's bullshit. No one wants this crap. It's got nothing to do with the cultural standards in pop music, it seems to actually undo some of the standards. The higher royalty proposal taking $ away from the pool for those NOT using it; Holy F. They don't pay comic book writers more because they're IP is published in color, now, do they? Pay scale incentives that negatively impact everyone else's bottom line are inherently wrong. I'd throw my quadraphonic records and surround sound Blue-Rays on their lawn in protest....except I don't have any! Wait...so are songwriters making less because the label didn't offer the song in Atmos? They are paying a 10% higher royalty for Atmos. So if you have a hit with a million streams you'll make $5,500 instead of $5,000. The problem is you haven't even paid for your Atmos speakers with that yet so you'll need multiple hits 🤣 |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 5, 2024 16:27:01 GMT -6
Wait...so are songwriters making less because the label didn't offer the song in Atmos? They are paying a 10% higher royalty for Atmos. So if you have a hit with a million streams you'll make $5,500 instead of $5,000. The problem is you haven't even paid for your Atmos speakers with that yet so you'll need multiple hits 🤣 The 10% (x1.1) comes out of the pro-rata shares pool, so there's whatever amount less for everyone else to divide. Certainly not x0.9, but now less than x1. Probably an unnoticeable hit, but an unfair one nonetheless. |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 5, 2024 16:32:12 GMT -6
I had an interesting talk with a songwriting friend the other day who was in a zoom session for "something" in the music industry and there was talk of Atmos being a new baseline standard for streaming and [other?] outlets for recorded music. There was some level of implication that Atmos was being used as a gatekeeper of sorts to restrict who plays in the "big leagues" (for lack of better description.) I could see it as a way to keep bedroom engineer/producers out since it requires a more expensive setup than a Scarlett, mac, and a Rode or SM7b. I noticed Atmos has been around for about 10 years so seems a bit late for such a move, unless its gaining significant momentum in certain realms. Figured I'd ask up hear just to get peoples take on the matter. Carvel That makes no sense to me. Where's the gatekeeping. Voxengo or TDR will do a plugin that creates an "Atmos mix" from a stereo mix (with a preset list) and it will give said bedroom Scarlett using muso an "Atmos mix" to upload the to www. Will it sound great - no. Will it be any worse than their "bedroom mixes" probably not. |
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Post by copperx on Feb 6, 2024 0:09:49 GMT -6
Wait...so are songwriters making less because the label didn't offer the song in Atmos? They are paying a 10% higher royalty for Atmos. So if you have a hit with a million streams you'll make $5,500 instead of $5,000. The problem is you haven't even paid for your Atmos speakers with that yet so you'll need multiple hits 🤣 Slightly tangential, but I've always wondered who keeps the tech companies accountable? What stops the tech company from saying you had 900,000 streams and not one million? Who audits them? Did the major labels say "sure, we'll trust your numbers" back in 2010 when Spotify proposed all-access to consumers? Spotify et al are not banks with established protocols and regulations. Someone can fudge the numbers with a line of code and it would be almost impossible to prove. Remember the Volkswagen emissions scandal? A few lines of code. They were caught because of constant testing, suspicious results, and the fact that the EPA exists. What's the streaming equivalent to such regulations? HAHA |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 6, 2024 2:03:37 GMT -6
They are paying a 10% higher royalty for Atmos. So if you have a hit with a million streams you'll make $5,500 instead of $5,000. The problem is you haven't even paid for your Atmos speakers with that yet so you'll need multiple hits 🤣 Slightly tangential, but I've always wondered who keeps the tech companies accountable? What stops the tech company from saying you had 900,000 streams and not one million? Who audits them? Did the major labels say "sure, we'll trust your numbers" back in 2010 when Spotify proposed all-access to consumers? Spotify et al are not banks with established protocols and regulations. Someone can fudge the numbers with a line of code and it would be almost impossible to prove. Remember the Volkswagen emissions scandal? A few lines of code. They were caught because of constant testing, suspicious results, and the fact that the EPA exists. What's the streaming equivalent to such regulations? HAHA I think you'll find a company like Spotify is heavily regulated and audited. It's the same as a the online betting websites. On the face of it - you would think the GUI of a roulette wheel is BS and they can look at all the bets made and have an algorithm that makes it avoid a payout for them. In reality that would be stealing! And a very serious offence. Yes, I know Spofity is "like" stealing from artists, but I'm 100% certain all plays on tracks are recorded 100% accurately - it's simply not in their interest to have it any other way, from a legal standing and also from a reputational one (with fans) Imagine a Whistle Blower hitting the news Spotify has been ripping off artists .... no wait a minute  |
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