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Post by wiz on Jan 17, 2024 19:03:48 GMT -6
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Post by drumsound on Jan 17, 2024 23:33:36 GMT -6
I believe it's a misconception that one can't overdub to music created without a click. Sure sometimes extra punches need to be made, or even a slight alteration of a part to allow for the push and pull. Hell, I've added drums to things that were WILDLY all over the place. You learn the tempo things in the same way you learn chord changes. It's much easier in a DAW compared to a linear format. I'll usually do several passes and playlist them and edit between takes. Of course, that probably isn't your point   |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 17, 2024 23:50:09 GMT -6
Real playing in real time works for me: does anyone’s heart beat in perfect time or is it’s cadence naturally perfect, even if inconsistent ?  |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 18, 2024 0:08:35 GMT -6
Click tracks are over rated. Track the band live! Then overdub to that. I do that a lot. I'll do the band live with the vocals doing a scratch. Then layout at tempo map from the take they like and then over dub that one take with whatever is needed.
My favorite thing to show people that its not needed is Earth Wind and Fires September. Play that song on a loop. When it ends and then starts again, it's like 20+ bpm slower haha but you do not notice it as the song plays. They didn't have that back then.
I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 18, 2024 0:31:22 GMT -6
Preach!
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Post by theshea on Jan 18, 2024 1:05:43 GMT -6
really depends on the music style AND on the players AND workflow. lets be honest: i guess 97,5% is on the grid today and recorded to a click. makes the band „sound“ better, makes editing easier and is expected by clients. but there can be tempo variations in a click track! i for myself like to increase the clicktrack slightly for a chorus or a rambling outro sounds great with some increasing click tempo.
did click free recordings with bands and i tell you, overdubbing, editing becomes a nightmare with a not so good/prepared band … so i always choose to record to a click. if it fits with tempo variations in the clicktrack.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 18, 2024 2:23:28 GMT -6
Click tracks are over rated. Track the band live! Then overdub to that. I do that a lot. I'll do the band live with the vocals doing a scratch. Then layout at tempo map from the take they like and then over dub that one take with whatever is needed. My favorite thing to show people that its not needed is Earth Wind and Fires September. Play that song on a loop. When it ends and then starts again, it's like 20+ bpm slower haha but you do not notice it as the song plays. They didn't have that back then. I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really. I'm anti-click at this point unless the drummer really requires it or the band is just not tight enough. So same page here. But I'm curious, in the scenario you described what even is the point of the tempo map? |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 18, 2024 8:51:18 GMT -6
Click tracks are over rated. Track the band live! Then overdub to that. I do that a lot. I'll do the band live with the vocals doing a scratch. Then layout at tempo map from the take they like and then over dub that one take with whatever is needed. My favorite thing to show people that its not needed is Earth Wind and Fires September. Play that song on a loop. When it ends and then starts again, it's like 20+ bpm slower haha but you do not notice it as the song plays. They didn't have that back then. I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really. I'm anti-click at this point unless the drummer really requires it or the band is just not tight enough. So same page here. But I'm curious, in the scenario you described what even is the point of the tempo map? I'm curious about this too. Tempo maps, after the fact seem odd because they don't 'set up' the change in tempo so the player won't actually know it's coming, but will adjust after the fact, as it were. But, if they just play to the track they can probably feel how the tempo changes happen, or the can learn something that they might have a problem with. |
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Post by lee on Jan 18, 2024 9:27:35 GMT -6
I'm anti-click at this point unless the drummer really requires it or the band is just not tight enough. So same page here. But I'm curious, in the scenario you described what even is the point of the tempo map? I'm curious about this too. Tempo maps, after the fact seem odd because they don't 'set up' the change in tempo so the player won't actually know it's coming, but will adjust after the fact, as it were. But, if they just play to the track they can probably feel how the tempo changes happen, or the can learn something that they might have a problem with. But you cut the clicks from the new section backward so that you give the player(s) something like 8 clicks in the "right" tempo as a setup. 1. You select and cut the amount of clicks you want to set up for 2. separate 3. Control-command-option click to copy it just before the selection Clicks at the incoming tempo.mov (1.14 MB) |
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Post by noob on Jan 18, 2024 9:33:33 GMT -6
I only use a click if they are used to using it and request. If not, it can ruin a good song because they lose the fundamental feel. And in that case, I wouldn't use a click. I think the imperfection can be what makes it sound authentic and unique.
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Post by christophert on Jan 18, 2024 9:48:34 GMT -6
I've used a click track maybe 10 times on well over 600 albums. Only used on tracks with electronic bands who use samples - and want to chop performances up on a grid (yuk) Or a film soundtrack where the timing is crucial for scenes. I discourage it as much as I can - and it always works without using it, and the players are happy with the results. Sometimes I use a click as a starting BPM point reference before a song starts - then turn it off.
Great live performances. Trust between players. Interaction. Push and pull. Surprise. Excitement. Humanity. |
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Post by dok on Jan 18, 2024 11:55:49 GMT -6
I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really. That very well may be the case but any classically-trained musician will have spent decades practicing to a metronome, something a lot of rock musicians (in my experience) don't do quite as much. And anything larger than a combo or chamber group will generally have a conductor for tempo reasons, among others. It may be pleasing in some circumstances to note tempo shifts in recordings with competent/professional musicians, but there's also a big difference between intentional and conscious shifts in tempo and unintentional ones, which is what we're often trying to reduce when recording a rock and roll band in the studio. It can be extremely eye-opening/surprising to play a very well-rehearsed song next to a click for the first time to illustrate just how much variation there can be between sections, even if you think there's none happening at all. Whether or not that's actually desirable is purely subjective, and there's a huge difference between rubato and just unaware sloppiness. I think it's worth trying to minimize the latter in most circumstances. |
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Post by dok on Jan 18, 2024 12:02:58 GMT -6
really depends on the music style AND on the players AND workflow. lets be honest: i guess 97,5% is on the grid today and recorded to a click. makes the band „sound“ better, makes editing easier and is expected by clients. but there can be tempo variations in a click track! i for myself like to increase the clicktrack slightly for a chorus or a rambling outro sounds great with some increasing click tempo. did click free recordings with bands and i tell you, overdubbing, editing becomes a nightmare with a not so good/prepared band … so i always choose to record to a click. if it fits with tempo variations in the clicktrack. Can't tell you how many times I've been saved by being able to drop in a few bars from a completely separate take because it was recorded on the grid. Sometimes you don't have time to capture the most perfect take from every single band member at the same time. Reasonably competent musical human beings can still wring a lot of musicianship out of being united around a steady tempo - it's not a detriment and there's a huge delta between playing to a click and quantizing every single note to the grid. Maybe it says something poor about my musicianship but I am a huge stickler to recording with a click and you can trust me when I say that there's still plenty of slop in my performances.  |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 18, 2024 17:54:56 GMT -6
I'm curious about this too. Tempo maps, after the fact seem odd because they don't 'set up' the change in tempo so the player won't actually know it's coming, but will adjust after the fact, as it were. But, if they just play to the track they can probably feel how the tempo changes happen, or the can learn something that they might have a problem with. But you cut the clicks from the new section backward so that you give the player(s) something like 8 clicks in the "right" tempo as a setup. 1. You select and cut the amount of clicks you want to set up for 2. separate 3. Control-command-option click to copy it just before the selection View AttachmentOk, so that means that the person overdubbing is hearing a click that doesn't match the music they are hearing before the punch in happens. That would probably make me CRAZY. |
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Post by lee on Jan 18, 2024 18:02:56 GMT -6
But you cut the clicks from the new section backward so that you give the player(s) something like 8 clicks in the "right" tempo as a setup. 1. You select and cut the amount of clicks you want to set up for 2. separate 3. Control-command-option click to copy it just before the selection View AttachmentOk, so that means that the person overdubbing is hearing a click that doesn't match the music they are hearing before the punch in happens. That would probably make me CRAZY. Yeah it would make you crazy if something thought you had to do it all in one take. When you record a big tempo change like this, you're going to punch in and get a fresh start, not do it in one pass. So it's natural to cut all clicks to the left of the setup clicks, give 8 clicks (or however many is desired) to the punch and away you go. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 19, 2024 2:49:05 GMT -6
Click tracks are over rated. Track the band live! Then overdub to that. I do that a lot. I'll do the band live with the vocals doing a scratch. Then layout at tempo map from the take they like and then over dub that one take with whatever is needed. My favorite thing to show people that its not needed is Earth Wind and Fires September. Play that song on a loop. When it ends and then starts again, it's like 20+ bpm slower haha but you do not notice it as the song plays. They didn't have that back then. I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really. I'm anti-click at this point unless the drummer really requires it or the band is just not tight enough. So same page here. But I'm curious, in the scenario you described what even is the point of the tempo map? I'm anti-click at this point unless the drummer really requires it or the band is just not tight enough. So same page here. But I'm curious, in the scenario you described what even is the point of the tempo map? I'm curious about this too. Tempo maps, after the fact seem odd because they don't 'set up' the change in tempo so the player won't actually know it's coming, but will adjust after the fact, as it were. But, if they just play to the track they can probably feel how the tempo changes happen, or the can learn something that they might have a problem with. Simple reason, headphone mixes. Everyone likes a different mix and sometimes they don't want a lot of drums banging in their headphones or whatever. And the count off can be helpful providing the tempo difference isn't huge where they are punching in. Some like to have it. Some don't. It's easy enough to make to not build it after the live pass has been done. Another thing I've found is if they tempo does drag a lot or pushes a lot in a phrase or at the end of a phrase I can easily tweak it to be more inline with the rest of the track. (providing this is not intentional obviously). And another is fx syncing like delays and reverbs. I didn't used to do it but saw a video where Eric Valentine was doing it and I've found it helpful ever since. I do tons of classical work and we never use Clicks for anything ever. Jazz either really. That very well may be the case but any classically-trained musician will have spent decades practicing to a metronome, something a lot of rock musicians (in my experience) don't do quite as much. And anything larger than a combo or chamber group will generally have a conductor for tempo reasons, among others. It may be pleasing in some circumstances to note tempo shifts in recordings with competent/professional musicians, but there's also a big difference between intentional and conscious shifts in tempo and unintentional ones, which is what we're often trying to reduce when recording a rock and roll band in the studio. It can be extremely eye-opening/surprising to play a very well-rehearsed song next to a click for the first time to illustrate just how much variation there can be between sections, even if you think there's none happening at all. Whether or not that's actually desirable is purely subjective, and there's a huge difference between rubato and just unaware sloppiness. I think it's worth trying to minimize the latter in most circumstances. True but even so you'd be surprised at the variation in tempo take to take day to day. I have streched takes when editing in something for only a bar or two. Stuff happens. |
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