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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 1:14:30 GMT -6
I've been clocking my apollo via WC from my Burl DA. I'm also using the Burl to clock the Trinnov - but via AES. Was reading a post by Dan Lavry suggesting that you shouldn't mix protocols or daisy chain and WC is superior. Obviously going to try it, has anyone dealt with this? I also haven't terminated anything ever. But I did order t connectors, and a termination plug. Really interested to see if it makes any difference.
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Post by frans on Jan 9, 2024 3:45:32 GMT -6
Some pieces of gear have built-in termination (it wants to sit at the end of a WC chain), some a button for it. For gear that has neither, termination plugs for the end of the chain exist (with a "T" piece) and termination prevents trouble. Has the Burl more than one wordclock outputs? I assume it hasn't. If you would take the WC from the Burl, plug it into a WC distributor like Mutec and then star-wire it to each piece that needs WC you would be safe but also you added another layer of tampering.
If your system works and sounds fine... why do anything...? The Burl WC clocks the inputs, the AES clock goes to the Trinnov on output, right? I'm not a rocket scientist, but if it works....
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Post by ab101 on Jan 9, 2024 10:41:54 GMT -6
I believe the Apollo has a termination switch. Not sure about the Trinnov.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 10:50:56 GMT -6
Some pieces of gear have built-in termination (it wants to sit at the end of a WC chain), some a button for it. For gear that has neither, termination plugs for the end of the chain exist (with a "T" piece) and termination prevents trouble. Has the Burl more than one wordclock outputs? I assume it hasn't. If you would take the WC from the Burl, plug it into a WC distributor like Mutec and then star-wire it to each piece that needs WC you would be safe but also you added another layer of tampering. If your system works and sounds fine... why do anything...? The Burl WC clocks the inputs, the AES clock goes to the Trinnov on output, right? I'm not a rocket scientist, but if it works.... It works...but am I hearing clocking errors? Would I know if I was? Will clocking errors sound like digital noise/distortion? I'm not saying I hear something, I'm just wanting to maintain best practice. And yes, the Burl actually has two WC Outs. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 10:52:28 GMT -6
So I assume the best practice would be to go WC out to the Apollo and then WC out to the Trinnov. Do I need to terminate anything? Both? Or just one?
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Post by notneeson on Jan 9, 2024 11:30:15 GMT -6
Some pieces of gear have built-in termination (it wants to sit at the end of a WC chain), some a button for it. For gear that has neither, termination plugs for the end of the chain exist (with a "T" piece) and termination prevents trouble. Has the Burl more than one wordclock outputs? I assume it hasn't. If you would take the WC from the Burl, plug it into a WC distributor like Mutec and then star-wire it to each piece that needs WC you would be safe but also you added another layer of tampering. If your system works and sounds fine... why do anything...? The Burl WC clocks the inputs, the AES clock goes to the Trinnov on output, right? I'm not a rocket scientist, but if it works.... It works...but am I hearing clocking errors? Would I know if I was? Will clocking errors sound like digital noise/distortion? I'm not saying I hear something, I'm just wanting to maintain best practice. And yes, the Burl actually has two WC Outs. Clock errors sound like annoying clicks. Absent that, if it sounds good it is good. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 12:47:11 GMT -6
So if and when I connect everything via WC, I'm confused as to what needs to be terminated. I thought you only terminated the last in a daisy chain...but I was going to clock the apollo and the trinnov separately from the Burl's two WC Outs...Do I need to worry about termination then?
As for sounds - I used a normal xlrf to xlrf to use a AES Male to spdif cable while I waited on the female to spdif cable I ordered. I had what sounds like two brists of white noise one time...figured it was the faulty connection.
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Post by lee on Jan 9, 2024 12:58:08 GMT -6
If you were running long lines of coax, like 50 ft or more, I’d terminate the trinnov and the Apollo, but for a shorty I wouldn’t stress. Doubt it needs it.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 13:14:22 GMT -6
Internal clocks are far superior to externally fed clocks.
Honestly there is no real reason to daisy chain clocks on modern equipment that doesn't need timecode sync.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 13:27:48 GMT -6
OK...found an extra WC cable laying around.
I AM CONVINCED the top end sounds better...like seems less "harsh." Not that it ever sounded harsh per se, but I don't hear what I was calling "distortion." I think Seth referred to it as "phase smearing" possibly? The Revolution sounded more "tight" is how I described it. Like transients were more clear. Don't really know how to describe...
There is also the chance that I'm making all this up and there's no difference. But I'm happy right now, so I'm going with that.
Oh btw - I can really hear a difference changing the clock to the internal Apollo clock now. Gets thinner and "tin"-ier.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 9, 2024 13:56:47 GMT -6
OK...found an extra WC cable laying around. I AM CONVINCED the top end sounds better...like seems less "harsh." Not that it ever sounded harsh per se, but I don't hear what I was calling "distortion." I think Seth referred to it as "phase smearing" possibly? The Revolution sounded more "tight" is how I described it. Like transients were more clear. Don't really know how to describe... There is also the chance that I'm making all this up and there's no difference. But I'm happy right now, so I'm going with that. Oh btw - I can really hear a difference changing the clock to the internal Apollo clock now. Gets thinner and "tin"-ier. If I clock my RME digital interface from my HEDD 192 it definitely sounds much better - it’s quite noticeable! I think it means Cubase is taking its reference then from the HEDD 192? I did once work out how it all worked but I’ve forgotten what is clocking off what. All I do know is my HEDD 192 has a superior clock to my RME unit. |
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Post by notneeson on Jan 9, 2024 14:25:54 GMT -6
OK...found an extra WC cable laying around. I AM CONVINCED the top end sounds better...like seems less "harsh." Not that it ever sounded harsh per se, but I don't hear what I was calling "distortion." I think Seth referred to it as "phase smearing" possibly? The Revolution sounded more "tight" is how I described it. Like transients were more clear. Don't really know how to describe... There is also the chance that I'm making all this up and there's no difference. But I'm happy right now, so I'm going with that. Oh btw - I can really hear a difference changing the clock to the internal Apollo clock now. Gets thinner and "tin"-ier. If I clock my RME digital interface from my HEDD 192 it definitely sounds much better - it’s quite noticeable! I think it means Cubase is taking its reference then from the HEDD 192? I did once work out how it all worked but I’ve forgotten what is clocking off what. All I do know is my HEDD 192 has a superior clock to my RME unit. This convo is as old as pro audio boards. People like using the HEDD as a master clock, and have for like 2 decades+. EE's like Svart who understand the tech will tell you that an internal clock is always better. Me I just do whatever I need to make the system run without clocking errors. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 14:27:44 GMT -6
Internal clocks are far superior to externally fed clocks. Honestly there is no real reason to daisy chain clocks on modern equipment that doesn't need timecode sync. OK - switching to clocking everything via the internal Apollo clock. And holy shit it sounds good. There's a difference. With the Apollo internal clocking everything (Although, now it's daisy chained because Apollo only has one WC out.) And maybe this is why I'm hearing what I'm hearing? Does a clock really make this much of a difference? I despise the term "my truth" (because there's really only one truth) but this is my truth lol. YMMV With everything clocked to the Apollo, the stereo image seems objectively wider. Not like a huge huge difference, but enough that it's definitely noticeable. It sounds freaking great. The top is a little more spitty or bright...bottom is nice but not overwhelming. Everything clocked to the Burl, the first thing you notice is the punch you-in-the-chest bottom...and the top is definitely softer. In comparison it's like the image is not quite as wide. Which makes me wonder...and I'm taking big leaps of dumbassery here...with the slightly dirtier sounding top end, and the wider sound stage - could it be phase in some manner? Like the inferior clock might actually sound wider because of shift/smearing? I just know if you take two acoustic guitars and slap auto align on both and then slide them slightly out of phase, you start to get like this psycho acoustic thing where it sounds wider...or if you take a delay and switch the phase on one side...psycho acoustic sounding stuff. If I'm explaining that correctly. Sometimes I've gotten two guitars lined up and phase corrected and I wonder if it wasn't a little cooler slightly out of phase. The slightly wider image is kind of intoxicating, though. |
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 14:38:52 GMT -6
Internal clocks are far superior to externally fed clocks. Honestly there is no real reason to daisy chain clocks on modern equipment that doesn't need timecode sync. OK - switching to clocking everything via the internal Apollo clock. And holy shit it sounds good. There's a difference. With the Apollo internal clocking everything (Although, now it's daisy chained because Apollo only has one WC out.) And maybe this is why I'm hearing what I'm hearing? Does a clock really make this much of a difference? I despise the term "my truth" (because there's really only one truth) but this is my truth lol. YMMV With everything clocked to the Apollo, the stereo image seems objectively wider. Not like a huge huge difference, but enough that it's definitely noticeable. It sounds freaking great. The top is a little more spitty or bright...bottom is nice but not overwhelming. Everything clocked to the Burl, the first thing you notice is the punch you-in-the-chest bottom...and the top is definitely softer. In comparison it's like the image is not quite as wide. Which makes me wonder...and I'm taking big leaps of dumbassery here...with the slightly dirtier sounding top end, and the wider sound stage - could it be phase in some manner? Like the inferior clock might actually sound wider because of shift/smearing? I just know if you take two acoustic guitars and slap auto align on both and then slide them slightly out of phase, you start to get like this psycho acoustic thing where it sounds wider...or if you take a delay and switch the phase on one side...psycho acoustic sounding stuff. If I'm explaining that correctly. Sometimes I've gotten two guitars lined up and phase corrected and I wonder if it wasn't a little cooler slightly out of phase. I don't know why you'd hear much difference. If clocking had enough jitter to cause an audible difference, then either one or the other clock would be considered extremely bad. Mind you, ANY clock source that uses BNC(COAX) signal is a SINGLE signal. WC is just one clock signal. There is NO stereo information to obtain from it. Similarly, internal derived clocks will be a single signal from their sources as well. There will be internal circuitry that splits the clock and creates the various subclocks needed for the ICs and THIS would create 100% of any effect on stereo difference. It would also be common between the various higher-level clock circuits as well. WC would likely be fed into a PLL(DPLL) of some type as a reference for some high-frequency clock that is divided down to something usable for the ICs. That high frequency clock and the internal clock would likely have a switch between them for Internal/External choice. The rest of the circuit would be the same. Kind of hard to have a stereo difference if this is the case. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 14:41:37 GMT -6
Wish you were here to hear it...not saying there's no way it couldn't be psychosomatic, but they sound different. Not sure why, but they do.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 9, 2024 14:50:51 GMT -6
Internal clocks are far superior to externally fed clocks. Honestly there is no real reason to daisy chain clocks on modern equipment that doesn't need timecode sync. OK - switching to clocking everything via the internal Apollo clock. And holy shit it sounds good. There's a difference. With the Apollo internal clocking everything (Although, now it's daisy chained because Apollo only has one WC out.) And maybe this is why I'm hearing what I'm hearing? Does a clock really make this much of a difference? I despise the term "my truth" (because there's really only one truth) but this is my truth lol. YMMV With everything clocked to the Apollo, the stereo image seems objectively wider. Not like a huge huge difference, but enough that it's definitely noticeable. It sounds freaking great. The top is a little more spitty or bright...bottom is nice but not overwhelming. Everything clocked to the Burl, the first thing you notice is the punch you-in-the-chest bottom...and the top is definitely softer. In comparison it's like the image is not quite as wide. Which makes me wonder...and I'm taking big leaps of dumbassery here...with the slightly dirtier sounding top end, and the wider sound stage - could it be phase in some manner? Like the inferior clock might actually sound wider because of shift/smearing? I just know if you take two acoustic guitars and slap auto align on both and then slide them slightly out of phase, you start to get like this psycho acoustic thing where it sounds wider...or if you take a delay and switch the phase on one side...psycho acoustic sounding stuff. If I'm explaining that correctly. Sometimes I've gotten two guitars lined up and phase corrected and I wonder if it wasn't a little cooler slightly out of phase. The slightly wider image is kind of intoxicating, though. Sometimes clocking helps, the RADAR, no , but when I ran HD a micro clock II was needed, the live rig sounds better with it, oh and both cases used the scope on the WC feed and yes indeed it did make a difference. The thing is if I use the BLA micro clock II on the Mytek it gets harsh, and if I put the scope on the Mytek WC it is a cleaner, but if I use the Mytek as a clock I feel like I always need to boost from 10K up. So in summation, yes sometimes a different clock source makes a difference both sonically and technically, but sonically it’s not always the one that technically is best, go figure. Oh and that’s with proper termination using a terminator with a 1% resistor, all WC connectors by Canare and WC cables by Canare as short as possible and using Quality T connectiors. |
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Post by hadaja on Jan 9, 2024 14:56:43 GMT -6
Wish you were here to hear it...not saying there's no way it couldn't be psychosomatic, but they sound different. Not sure why, but they do. John, I just love these rabbit holes you go down. It reminds me of how much more I have yet to learn and to actually experience "audiologically" . I think I just made up a word. I am not afraid to say, that I have not yet entered the world of word clocking, AD/DA conversion with digital aliasing and such. It makes for wonderful reading and pondering. It also reminds me that yes - there is a separation from myself as small home audio enthusiast to a someone totally committed to pursuit of audio excellence. But there is a happy place for me to sit within the audio circle of the industry. I have and continue to learn a lot from your experiences and know that there will be a lot more to learn when I reached that stage - if ever. But first I still need to wrap my head around the pros and cons of a patch bay in a smaller sertup like mine. PLease be encouraged to keep up this self discovery and posting of results. Cheers |
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Post by dougwendal on Jan 9, 2024 15:54:05 GMT -6
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Post by ab101 on Jan 9, 2024 16:02:16 GMT -6
I had the original Lynx Aurora. I got an Antelope Isochrone clock. I liked it better with the external clock. (Synchro lok has to be off in the Lynx). For instance, recording piano bass with a DPA 4011, it was tighter with the external clock.
I spoke to the Lynx support folks who are awesome. They told me that I was hearing an actual distortion from the original signal. But I liked it better.
So, go figure.
Virtually every authority I spoke to or read about, says that internal clocks are better, but if multiple units are involved, then a central awesome clock makes sense.
And I believe I have read accounts that with the Antelope atomic clock, the stereo width seemed enhanced. But is this with only poor internal clocks?
I have decided that digital clocking and dithering are my least two favorite audio issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 16:37:36 GMT -6
Wish you were here to hear it...not saying there's no way it couldn't be psychosomatic, but they sound different. Not sure why, but they do. different reference clocks. you also might be using a device that slaves its clock to whatever it is fed over aes/spdif. dangerous dbox and source are like that. what you feed them with changes the sound a great deal.
more modern designs like the apogee ess converters, benchmark, later crane song converters, and recent gen weiss conveters, they use asynchronous clocking, resample the incoming audio to the optimal sample rate to feed the converter chips, and treat the master clock as a loose reference or ignore it totally. how they sound is how they sound for better or worse...
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 9, 2024 16:54:59 GMT -6
If I clock my RME digital interface from my HEDD 192 it definitely sounds much better - it’s quite noticeable! I think it means Cubase is taking its reference then from the HEDD 192? I did once work out how it all worked but I’ve forgotten what is clocking off what. All I do know is my HEDD 192 has a superior clock to my RME unit. This convo is as old as pro audio boards. People like using the HEDD as a master clock, and have for like 2 decades+. EE's like Svart who understand the tech will tell you that an internal clock is always better. Me I just do whatever I need to make the system run without clocking errors. Well I bought the HEDD 192 to use as a converter. I only discovered Cubase/RME AES interface sounds better when clocking from it after I started using it. I don't care who says "an internal clock is better" .... on my system in my project studio with my ears - it sounds better when clocking the system off the HEDD 192 clock. |
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Post by notneeson on Jan 9, 2024 16:57:53 GMT -6
This convo is as old as pro audio boards. People like using the HEDD as a master clock, and have for like 2 decades+. EE's like Svart who understand the tech will tell you that an internal clock is always better. Me I just do whatever I need to make the system run without clocking errors. Well I bought the HEDD 192 to use as a converter. I only discovered Cubase/RME AES interface sounds better when clocking from it after I started using it. I don't care who says "an internal clock is better" .... on my system in my project studio with my ears - it sounds better when clocking the system off the HEDD 192 clock. Cool, enjoy. |
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Post by lee on Jan 9, 2024 17:57:25 GMT -6
If you haven't shot this out blind and can consistently guess correctly every time... it's a lot of wank.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2024 20:04:37 GMT -6
If you haven't shot this out blind and can consistently guess correctly every time... it's a lot of wank. Ok |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2024 14:52:49 GMT -6
Clicks or glitches are usually down to jitter, stereo image is defined by the amplitude and timing to the L/R channels (which is also dependant on clocking). Ultimately less than stellar clocking can cause a magnitude of issues like a spacial or environmental impact on the recording. You'd have to level match with 0dB difference to ensure volume doesn't affect your decision and without some testing equipment probably a radioshack style decibel meter is your best bet. Once perfectly matched taking into the account the effect of analog paths there really wasn't tons of difference between my MOTU, Lynx & SSL Desk. For some reason the Apollo DA always sounded very weird to me and yes I can pick that out constantly.
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