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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 14:29:41 GMT -6
I’m just opening up the conversation because maybe one of you guys has a better approach than I do…
I’ve mixed a bunch of stuff for a guy overseas…he obviously liked what I’ve done because he keeps coming back. Apparently he recommended me to a friend who I attempted to mix something for…(this was my Cubase 13 disaster/crash/had-to-remix). He’s said to me multiple times, “I want it to sound more professional.”
This is a home project. Fake strings, fake drums, fake guitar, fake boys choir…well, fake everything besides the vocals. I’ve found - and tell me if I’m wrong on this - there’s only so much that can be improved when you are working with canned sounds. The drums are clips of different “big boom” cinematic type stuff. The piano is his fake piano sound (sounds fine)…
I’ve definitely made everything sound objectively better, but “this is still not what I had in mind.” This was after I sent him my take, he didn’t like it and so he then wanted me to “just make my (his) mix sound more professional.” So, he sent a mix and I followed his lead. Still not to his liking.
So at this point, I’ve spent waaaaaay more time on it than it’s worth. I thought it would be fun to have him send his Cubase mix and I’d try it in the new C13. As you might have seen, I took about 5 hours playing around in Cubase - just learning stuff as I went. Really good practice in a daw I haven’t used in a long time. Then at the end of that five hours, it crashes at the end of the bounce and I lost everything. (Didn’t realize auto save was disabled.) So then I remixed the next day - only took about an hour because I had a save from about a quarter of the way through. Sent and “not what he had in mind.”
This is obviously setting me up for failure, so I’m just not going to put anymore time into it. I don’t think I’m awful - I just think this is just a case of him having some crazy expectations. I replied back that at this point I just don’t know what else to do, so I’ll take this as a loss and he can find someone that can give him what he’s looking for. Mostly because I’m just not willing to put any more time into this. It’s not going to get better, just different. Life’s too short.
How do you guys handle situations like this? In the past I would have suffered through it…but it’s just not worth it IMO.
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Post by damoongo on Jan 1, 2024 14:36:38 GMT -6
Charge by time, not by project for unknown clients.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2024 14:37:33 GMT -6
Have you explained that the limitations of his 'tracking' are having a major impact on your ability to mix it?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 14:39:27 GMT -6
Charge by time, not by project for unknown clients. Good idea |
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2024 14:42:03 GMT -6
"Make it sound more professional" is a very difficult mix note because there's no clues given as to what they're really looking for. More professional could mean more gluey, less gluey, more compressed, less compressed, less bass, more bass, less high end, more high end. It's all contextual, so it's impossible to navigate without more details.
In that case I'd always ask for a reference track, but in your specific case it sounds like he needs to just take it to another engineer because the well of inspiration is tapped at this point. There's only so much you can do with that mix note, because it doesn't really describe at all what he's looking for. Did he give you any other notes related to "more professional" or was that the only thing he said?
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Post by EmRR on Jan 1, 2024 14:43:13 GMT -6
“It can only sound as good as the potential found in the source tracks, which is separate from your imagination”.
He doesn’t have to like the answer, because he won’t. Sorry! Happy new year…..
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Post by seawell on Jan 1, 2024 14:43:21 GMT -6
Those are tough...people put in amateur effort on the front end and expect some professional miracle at the end. The only thing I'd recommend is that when I get a bunch of VI stuff, I'll use room reverb to try and make it sound more real. Sometimes it's UAD ocean way, sometimes Seventh Heaven or Altiverb. I basically try to go back to the beginning of the process and try and make it sound like I tracked it at my studio. Sometimes I'll also add tape(Cranesong Phoenix) and preamp emulations(True Iron) and Compression that I would have used during tracking. It sucks but it's like I have to try and recreate the past to try and get a decent starting point. That's one of the huge downsides to the state of the industry overall is that so many more people are trying to track themselves these days and it makes mixing way more challenging. It's also why I still hang on to so much hardware, because unlike years ago, hardly any decent gear is getting used during tracking.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 14:48:56 GMT -6
Have you explained that the limitations of his 'tracking' are having a major impact on your ability to mix it? Man, maybe I’m just being lazy, but every time I’ve ever had this happen, it ends weird, I’ve spent another 5 hours trying to please this guy and I making squat for the work I put in. Just seems like if you have to explain that to someone, you’re already screwed. But the suggestion above is probably the right move. Makes them have to weigh their options instead of me. Btw - I water marked the mixes with 1k tones every once in a while. How do you guys handle that? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 14:51:57 GMT -6
"Make it sound more professional" is a very difficult mix note because there's no clues given as to what they're really looking for. More professional could mean more gluey, less gluey, more compressed, less compressed, less bass, more bass, less high end, more high end. It's all contextual, so it's impossible to navigate without more details. In that case I'd always ask for a reference track, but in your specific case it sounds like he needs to just take it to another engineer because the well of inspiration is tapped at this point. There's only so much you can do with that mix note, because it doesn't really describe at all what he's looking for. Did he give you any other notes related to "more professional" or was that the only thing he said? Big, wide, 3 dimensional. My mix is bigger, wider, and more 3D. Does it sound like a major label record you find on iTunes? Well, no. Maybe someone else can make it sound like that, but I can’t. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 14:54:00 GMT -6
It's also why I still hang on to so much hardware, because unlike years ago, hardly any decent gear is getting used during tracking. Totally using this with the wife. And yeah - I used SCS on several of the tracks and it was the first time I thought it was really useful. |
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2024 15:23:09 GMT -6
"Make it sound more professional" is a very difficult mix note because there's no clues given as to what they're really looking for. More professional could mean more gluey, less gluey, more compressed, less compressed, less bass, more bass, less high end, more high end. It's all contextual, so it's impossible to navigate without more details. In that case I'd always ask for a reference track, but in your specific case it sounds like he needs to just take it to another engineer because the well of inspiration is tapped at this point. There's only so much you can do with that mix note, because it doesn't really describe at all what he's looking for. Did he give you any other notes related to "more professional" or was that the only thing he said? Big, wide, 3 dimensional. My mix is bigger, wider, and more 3D. Does it sound like a major label record you find on iTunes? Well, no. Maybe someone else can make it sound like that, but I can’t. Maybe you should add some 808's? /s |
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Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2024 15:25:10 GMT -6
You can usually suss these types out quickly. And when they have been identified, jettison them asap. Tell him/them "you can't polish a turd" and leave it right there.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2024 15:29:10 GMT -6
Have you explained that the limitations of his 'tracking' are having a major impact on your ability to mix it? Man, maybe I’m just being lazy, but every time I’ve ever had this happen, it ends weird, I’ve spent another 5 hours trying to please this guy and I making squat for the work I put in. Just seems like if you have to explain that to someone, you’re already screwed. But the suggestion above is probably the right move. Makes them have to weigh their options instead of me. Btw - I water marked the mixes with 1k tones every once in a while. How do you guys handle that? Yeah, at least imparting that knowledge to him in a non-condescending way could make him realize why he's not getting the results he's after. For better or worse prob about 70% of my clients are definitely 'green' in the studio and/or with the mixing process. I've gotten pretty good at enlightening them to the limitations of either their budget relative to what they want to accomplish in the studio, or the tracks they want me to mix, before we even get started. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 15:34:50 GMT -6
Distort the hell out of it. Fake pre, fake console, tape plugs, reverb sends and crush the reverb with vulf comp. Scoop the the big room samples like ice cream. Preprocessed samples are mixed by wusses to be what they think the musician wants, not what works in a mix. So they barely eq and then process it, making everything gross more prominent. Where on a raw drum you might need or it might get on the way in a -12 db cut on an api 550 at 500hz, on a processed sample you might need -30 db. Strip mine those drums. You don't have to play ball with anything major label that demands conformity. These are amateurs. Just make it sound cool.
If you have some of the crazy Fuse or PSP or Goodhertz plugs, use them. Throw SDRR2 on them. Decapitate them. They're fake. Use Molot to make them a machine gun or sound like a drum played by a lightsaber. Use the Omnipressor or Presswerk to totally change the envelope into some reverse hammering machine. Use your Pulsar 1178 to distort the living hell out of everything on 8x oversampling with the additional distortions. Just eq, distort, and render it. Ride faders.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2024 15:35:40 GMT -6
Those are tough...people put in amateur effort on the front end and expect some professional miracle at the end. The only thing I'd recommend is that when I get a bunch of VI stuff, I'll use room reverb to try and make it sound more real. Sometimes it's UAD ocean way, sometimes Seventh Heaven or Altiverb. Yes, I definitely have printed peoples blandly and poorly recorded tracks through outboard pres, EQs and compressors as well. It can make a huge difference Adding tape modulation plugs or cool 'vibe' and saturation can make things feel way more purposeful and intentional- For John's troublesome project though, I'd guess 'vibey and saturated' is probably not what he wants when he says 'more professional'... Most of the folks I work with are in the alternative, indie, psych genres and looove 'vibe'. Haha. But either way, even printing the stems through some nice outboard pres and comps can certainly bring some life to things. |
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Post by copperx on Jan 1, 2024 15:56:42 GMT -6
I'm going to take a different stance here. I've been through this before.
Stop trying to improve the source tracks. Even replacing a few sounds with superior virtual instruments, if you have them, will yield a minimal improvement.
Get the tracks to play together by using EQ and compression, but don't try to shape the tracks into something they're not.
And then, here's the important part. Automate the hell out of it. Make sure to bring out to the front what's good about each section. Magnify whatever emotion the song is trying to evoke. With bad source material, you will be automating more than usual. However, accepting that you can't do much for the sound itself is primordial. It's also liberating.
Good mixes that sound shitty are a thing.
As for what to do communication-wise with this artist, you have to set the right expectations before moving another fader.
Once you are done, take the mix through something like the Silver Bullet. A pair of Highland Dynamics BG2 units with no compression (available on Access Analog) add a lot of mojo, soften rogue transients, and are ideal for this kind of salvage work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 16:00:46 GMT -6
Those are tough...people put in amateur effort on the front end and expect some professional miracle at the end. The only thing I'd recommend is that when I get a bunch of VI stuff, I'll use room reverb to try and make it sound more real. Sometimes it's UAD ocean way, sometimes Seventh Heaven or Altiverb. Yes, I definitely have printed peoples blandly and poorly recorded tracks through outboard pres, EQs and compressors as well. It can make a huge difference Adding tape modulation plugs or cool 'vibe' and saturation can make things feel way more purposeful and intentional- For John's troublesome project though, I'd guess 'vibey and saturated' is probably not what he wants when he says 'more professional'... Most of the folks I work with are in the alternative, indie, psych genres and looove 'vibe'. Haha. But either way, even printing the stems through some nice outboard pres and comps can certainly bring some life to things. You can also use older samplers and effects units and certain aliased older distortion processes (vintage warmer is perfect for this, inflator and decapitator will do it too but not as flexible) to annihilate the depth cues from whatever ill-fitting reverb was stuck on them or too reverberant room they were recorded in previously. SDRR2 digital mode can do this. Avid Lofi cannot do this. The 90s 12-bit ADC module in PSP Infinistrip does this easily. A lot of stuff is too nice or too dirty to do this. Waves Kramer HLS can do it too. The Weiss DS-1 also because of the not entirely correct way it performs math and those imperfections are the sound. Compare it to the clone DMG Essence that is neither as cool with it's cleaner 64-bit math nor as flexible because DMG got rid of the "Average" knob and just made the peak detector 6 db above the rms... You can do this cleaner with the wanted wibe with the Fuse TCS-68 preamp module or the LTL Silver Bullet mk II A module too but it might not be as cool. Or you can push tube plugs like Shattered Glass, Tupe, Neold, Fuse, UAD, PA to the brink to right where they break up and dial it back. You want all the cool, clean distortion, and then on the peakiest peaks to overwhelm the plug with non-linearities and infinite harmonics to get some foldback that will annihilate the depth cues. Then if it causes anything nasty, just saturate that out with a tape plug or eq it out with a low order low pass filter. I do this with the TCS-68 red light a lot but you can do anything if you can figure out the level where the plugin starts crapping out with an analyzer. the LTL Silver Bullet Plug is awesome for this because the sweet spot for the A and Hitmaker parts is right below where it craps out while like Tupe just sounds awesome everywhere. You don't necessarily want awesome. You want awesome + annihilation and the Silver Bullet plug and the TCS-68 make it easy. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 1, 2024 16:15:47 GMT -6
Something else that has helped me massively on projects like this is getting drums split out when they are VI drums so that I'm not just trying to mix a stereo track of drums. So if they use Steven Slate drums or something like that I'll send them a tutorial if they don't know how on splitting those out to separate kick, snare, overheads, etc... Much more flexibility and that way I can blend in samples I've made here to add more realism. Also, get all the midi tracks if you can. Changing pianos and strings in particular to libraries I have has helped a ton. Not completely changing the intent of what they were going for but if they used a baby grand sound, I probably have a much better library available. Time consuming yes, but I've found it's less time than trying to mix garbage tracks. The end result also has a much higher ceiling.
I forgot to mention this has been at least 50% of my work since 2020. Before, it was simply a "no" from me or charging by the hour but the harsh reality is that most people are broke. I hate it has come to this but I also don't see how it turns around in this industry any time soon. More and more people are going to be recording/producing themselves and God help us all when they start sending us AI tracks in place of the VI tracks 🤣
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 1, 2024 16:41:16 GMT -6
Doesn’t sound like this will work for your client Johnkenn, but I usually charge new clients half upfront, half after a clip (or watermarked full mix), and then one round of minor revisions free of charge. Note: minor revisions = make the vocal louder, make the mix brighter, etc. NOT “I’m completely unhappy, can you redo the whole thing from scratch”. Any subsequent revisions billed according to scope. Of course, with long term clients, I might be a little more lenient, but even then, I was once burned by a 10-year client with whom I had worked on hundreds of projects. Over a $300 job, to boot. On the production side of things, if I were sent a bunch of corny sounding VIs to mix, I would replace them with better VIs and/or record parts from scratch. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2024 16:44:03 GMT -6
The expectations of low end clients are always exponentially harder to please. You have to set the correct expectations from the get go, if you can’t get it to where your both happy in an economically reasonable period of time you tell the client “ well you should probably look elsewhere” l, return the fee. Nobody likes walking a unhappy client to the door, but better you do it before you both have invested to much time and effort and are in the exact same place.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 1, 2024 16:49:13 GMT -6
I've had to deal with clients like this.
Hyped mixes are the answer ime.
Loud and proud - bugger the subtle detail - they wouldn't know subtle detail if it jumped up and bit them on the ar*e
Loud, wide, glossy.
You know, M/S boost the Side by 1dB, parallel compression , add some candy floss - all the crappy tricks.
They get the "wow" factor - their vanity project in a shiny frame.
Job done.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 16:54:00 GMT -6
You can usually suss these types out quickly. And when they have been identified, jettison them asap. Tell him/them "you can't polish a turd" and leave it right there. Now, Bill...lol |
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Post by lee on Jan 1, 2024 17:00:17 GMT -6
I'm going to offer a different perspective, one which might get you off the hook, or might get you into a position of higher responsibility but more creative involvement. Assuming you want that, of course!
What you're being asked to do is some creative production, but your client doesn't realize it yet. There is a saying "Give them want they mean, not what they tell you." You would have to renegotiate terms, but if the moneys' right, you can do a Mutt Lange on it. Replace the drums. Play new guitars and bass. Add some shit that elevates it. Use the tools you have and the resources available to you, which are plentiful. Most people don't have any idea the lengths you have to go to in order to make a song sound like a glossy record, and to elevate the material they are given.
If this approach in any way appeals to you, I would start by taking one aspect of it and bring it up to YOUR standards. Send it on and ask "Hey is this the sort of thing you're looking for? I can do this throughout, but that turns this into a different job we need to discuss."
There's no point in getting nickel and dimed. Either you'll really excite the client, or they'll realize they need to go further production-wise to get the music to be realized in way that matches their expectations. Then you can go about your business.
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Post by Ward on Jan 1, 2024 17:00:30 GMT -6
There are so many right answers and so much wisdom in this thread!
Don't be afraid to walk away.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:02:37 GMT -6
Man, maybe I’m just being lazy, but every time I’ve ever had this happen, it ends weird, I’ve spent another 5 hours trying to please this guy and I making squat for the work I put in. Just seems like if you have to explain that to someone, you’re already screwed. But the suggestion above is probably the right move. Makes them have to weigh their options instead of me. Btw - I water marked the mixes with 1k tones every once in a while. How do you guys handle that? I've gotten pretty good at enlightening them to the limitations of either their budget relative to what they want to accomplish in the studio, or the tracks they want me to mix, before we even get started. Yeah - maybe I shouldn't accept jobs until I hear the songs...I hate starting out telling someone akin to 'ya shouldn't expect a miracle..." lol I've gotten done with a mix before and knew it still didn't sound like a pro product, and the people loved it. By that, I mean - I felt like I made it as good as it could be - but...you know. |
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