ferry
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Post by ferry on Dec 18, 2023 20:06:31 GMT -6
Hello guys, I'm new in audio recording world same as on this forum, so if you feel that I'm saying stupid things - it is  Right now I'm learning fingerstlyle with percussion Just an example (please delete if not allowed) and having Sennheiser MK4 mic with RME Babyface pro fs interface. I saw a lot of reviews, videos, comparisons (also in this forum) and found 3 most interesting mics for me. 1) Soyuz 013 Fet (600$) 2) Neumann km184(670$) 3) Austrian Audio cc8 (mono 450$, pair 830$) Everyone tells that its better to use cheap pair, but in stereo, but as I'm new here I just want to buy something, which I will use forever or sell at by not loosing to much. Also I read that stereo could be overcomplicated for people without experience. And so far I'm tending to buy mic 1 or 2 as mono and in the future (if needed) just add another, but here another problem = matched/unmatched topic "shouting aaaa". Also I saw topics that its not necessary needed to use 2 same mics for stereo. I could probably take my MK4 and add i.e. one Souyz or Neumann and experiment with that. it would be really nice if you could correct my thoughts, which I learned for the past days and a lot of reading hours. and would be great if (based on YT example) tell me which mic would fit best here? Precise and bright neumann, warm and full Soyuz, or something between -> AA cc8? And in case stereo matched and same pair needed I would go for that 830$, but it's a bit to much for me. Otherwise I can buy one of these and add same one, for example in "xx months". P.S. Probably it is also very important to consider - I live in a Maisonette apartment type, which doesnt have doors, only ladder behind me. I treated my living room part as much as possible, bass traps, acoustic panels, carpet, big sofa etc and it works pretty well for music listening, but I think it will never be perfect for recordings, just unpossible to do by not spending thousands of $  Thank you for any advise!  |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 18, 2023 21:09:05 GMT -6
I've not used those mics personally but my take is that "matched pair" is a bit overrated for popular music, especially on a single instrument like guitar. The differences in L/R signal being captured are way more significant than any mic differences.
Others may disagree.
And welcome to the forum!
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Post by reddirt on Dec 18, 2023 21:29:29 GMT -6
The new Chandler type L is one to seriously consider ; will work really well on most sources including acoustic and vocal, is in your financial ball park and I doubt you'll ever want to sell it.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by ironinthepath on Dec 18, 2023 21:37:19 GMT -6
Many people have been raving about the Soyuz mics and I’m tempted to buy some of their models in the future. Overall though I’ve been a happy owner of a km184 pair for 15 years, especially for guitar. Used pairs in good condition come up often as well at reasonable prices, if you go that route you can sell again without too much loss. For me, even a new pair still likely worth the price.
If budget a key issue though I’ve really liked some recordings made with a Shure KSM141 pair and I personally own a non-matched pair of SM81 mics: quite pleasing results there too. Mic pre matters for this though, in my opinion, and I’ve been super happy with Buzz Audio Elixir preamps if you can get a pair (or one the two channel rack units). I remain a fan of Vintech too…. But you never asked about preamps :-)
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ferry
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Post by ferry on Dec 18, 2023 21:45:21 GMT -6
I've not used those mics personally but my take is that "matched pair" is a bit overrated for popular music, especially on a single instrument like guitar. The differences in L/R signal brung captured are way more significant than any mic differences. Others may disagree. And welcome to the forum! Thanks for welcome! Mostly I see the best recording as stereo, but I also saw really good as mono and also saw the possibility to "fake" stereo, ok its not 100% natural, but results were impressing after post-processing. This is why tending more just to one good mic right now, to play around and maybe later with experince comparing it with true stereo But whats most interesting is - would different mics work together? Like one LDC and one SDC. |
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ferry
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Post by ferry on Dec 18, 2023 21:46:50 GMT -6
The new Chandler type L is one to seriously consider ; will work really well on most sources including acoustic and vocal, is in your financial ball park and I doubt you'll ever want to sell it. Cheers, Ross I saw a lot of mics, but this one - didnt even hear. Ty for suggestion, will take a look soon |
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ferry
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Posts: 12
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Post by ferry on Dec 18, 2023 21:51:23 GMT -6
Many people have been raving about the Soyuz mics and I’m tempted to buy some of their models in the future. Overall though I’ve been a happy owner of a km184 pair for 15 years, especially for guitar. Used pairs in good condition come up often as well at reasonable prices, if you go that route you can sell again without too much loss. For me, even a new pair still likely worth the price. If budget a key issue though I’ve really liked some recordings made with a Shure KSM141 pair and I personally own a non-matched pair of SM81 mics: quite pleasing results there too. Mic pre matters for this though, in my opinion, and I’ve been super happy with Buzz Audio Elixir preamps if you can get a pair (or one the two channel rack units). I remain a fan of Vintech too…. But you never asked about preamps :-) I heard only positive about 184er. But people say its to bright and some kind of dry'ness. I just have a feeling that overall classical stuff and percussion may sound tastier on soyuz bacause of that warmness. But I researched whole internet, every little topic on forum, every video on YT, but didnt find any Percussion with that mic preamps, just to much haha. I think I will need to buy it later when I know what I lack But yeah... good point, will need to learn about it aswell |
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Post by ironinthepath on Dec 18, 2023 23:11:46 GMT -6
If you are recording nylon string classical style guitar vs. steel string folk finger-style your mic choice (and potentially preamp choice) could be very different. I record a little bit of both but I am not targeting a strict orchestral-grade classical (nylon string) sound, so don't make a big deal about it. Meaning, I am ok if I don't capture a pure reality and am quite happy if I capture "something more" somehow in terms of the tonality of the instrument. (and I watched the video and it's a steel string with the "something more" included).
There are many different opinions on this, but if I was starting from scratch I would rather have a decently nice mic pair with a decently nice preamp than stellar mics and say the stock preamp of a budget interface (although I'd rather have that vs. nothing!). In other words, from my experience, finding a decent used Shure SM81 (or pair, matched or not) and buying two channels of a decent preamp to go with it would more easily result in a "pro" sound compared to a fancier mic directly into a Scarlett 2i2. (For preamps, a used Buzz Elixir would be excellent choice and I suspect the Iron Age Audio QP5 might be another contender that is even more budget friendly but I have not used it myself...yet) Stereo is definitely your friend for this style in the video. And I think the KM184 pair would do quite well with this style also. To follow it up, I would recommend the MOTU M2 converters vs. the Scarlett (but it's totally off topic).
About the value of a decent preamp: the first time I heard an SM57 through an API512 preamp (2005 or so) I suddenly realized why the SM57 was used in pro studios (often) even when other more expensive mics were easily in reach (this was for amp mic of an electric guitar and for some of the best sounding "scratch" vocals I heard up until that point).
Good luck with the decision/search and welcome to RGO!
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ferry
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by ferry on Dec 19, 2023 0:20:06 GMT -6
If you are recording nylon string classical style guitar vs. steel string folk finger-style your mic choice (and potentially preamp choice) could be very different. I record a little bit of both but I am not targeting a strict orchestral-grade classical (nylon string) sound, so don't make a big deal about it. Meaning, I am ok if I don't capture a pure reality and am quite happy if I capture "something more" somehow in terms of the tonality of the instrument. (and I watched the video and it's a steel string with the "something more" included). There are many different opinions on this, but if I was starting from scratch I would rather have a decently nice mic pair with a decently nice preamp than stellar mics and say the stock preamp of a budget interface (although I'd rather have that vs. nothing!). In other words, from my experience, finding a decent used Shure SM81 (or pair, matched or not) and buying two channels of a decent preamp to go with it would more easily result in a "pro" sound compared to a fancier mic directly into a Scarlett 2i2. (For preamps, a used Buzz Elixir would be excellent choice and I suspect the Iron Age Audio QP5 might be another contender that is even more budget friendly but I have not used it myself...yet) Stereo is definitely your friend for this style in the video. And I think the KM184 pair would do quite well with this style also. To follow it up, I would recommend the MOTU M2 converters vs. the Scarlett (but it's totally off topic). About the value of a decent preamp: the first time I heard an SM57 through an API512 preamp (2005 or so) I suddenly realized why the SM57 was used in pro studios (often) even when other more expensive mics were easily in reach (this was for amp mic of an electric guitar and for some of the best sounding "scratch" vocals I heard up until that point). Good luck with the decision/search and welcome to RGO! Thanks for welcoming aswell ^^ As I described in TS, I already have RME babyface pro fs interface (pretty fine preamp there) with Sennheiser MK4 Mic. Used it for few years and just simple voice recordings for my work. So the most interesting question to me right now is if its possible to add (1 soyuz or 1 neumann or 'whatelse, i.e. beyers930 etc') and recording it together with Sennheiser MK4. For example SDC pointed to 12th Fret for fingerpicking and LDC pointed somewhere to body/soundhole to pick up more from percussive stuff. Or it doesnt make any sense and need to focus on 2 same SDC's, so that I can just sell my MK4 |
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Post by copperx on Dec 19, 2023 3:41:56 GMT -6
I've not used those mics personally but my take is that "matched pair" is a bit overrated for popular music, especially on a single instrument like guitar. The differences in L/R signal brung captured are way more significant than any mic differences. Others may disagree. And welcome to the forum! +++++1 Unmatched pairs sound terrific for most sources. |
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Post by christophert on Dec 19, 2023 4:30:06 GMT -6
The Soyuz 013 is a great mic.
I would choose it every time over a KM184
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Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2023 7:15:01 GMT -6
If you don't have to worry about any off-axis pickup, choose the KM184, If you have to worry about anything off-axis use a Soyuz, unless you can lay your hands on a KM84. Also . . . don't discount omni SDCs. And for the best CURRENT options available for SDCs with acoustic guitars? cserrano's S84 set or mics Lulu FET. |
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ferry
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Post by ferry on Dec 19, 2023 7:28:48 GMT -6
The Soyuz 013 is a great mic. I would choose it every time over a KM184 To my ears it is definitely better. But I'm a bit sceptical because there is more low-end. And it will be harder to fix on post-processing in case I will need to fix something. Instead just of adding EQ to it. However Km184 is more moody to positioning (another's opinions). And there are just a lot "more of KM184" on the internet. To many people prefer it and say that its most preferable mic for guitar recordings. So maybe that gives a feeling that its true. But my ears just have a bit more different taste, which tends to soyuz, Austrian audio, schoeps(but its to expensive) Well, I know what could help me to make decision today As I understood, there are 2 different concepts in those 2 mics. With Transformers (SU 013) and transformerless (Km 184). Which concept is more reliable? I.e. If I will use it everyday for 5-10 hours for years, for work speech recordings, for guitar recordings, for discrod at free time and so on... Or it doesnt matter at all if its based on transistors or transformers? |
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ferry
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Post by ferry on Dec 19, 2023 8:06:29 GMT -6
If you don't have to worry about any off-axis pickup, choose the KM184, If you have to worry about anything off-axis use a Soyuz, unless you can lay your hands on a KM84. Also . . . don't discount omni SDCs. And for the best CURRENT options available for SDCs with acoustic guitars? cserrano 's S84 set or mics Lulu FET. uh... didnt even hear about scerrano and lulu. I can not find a lot of mics in Germany. For example gefell M 300, which will be advised aswell - just not existing here ^^ And with off-axis you mean where the mic is pointing at. off-axis -> for example on the 10, 11, 12... Fret on-axis -> to the soundhole did I understand it correctly? If yes, for the past week and hundreds of examples, never seen any example where someone is pointing SDC to the soundhole hm |
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Post by drbill on Dec 19, 2023 10:15:10 GMT -6
unless you can lay your hands on a KM84. The 84 is more expensive of course, but a classic that will almost never loose out, and almost never get sold. It is the ultimate SDC in uncontrolled environments for me. You can pull back or push in to remove the craziest of room tones. I've even used them at a clients with windows open and gardeners outside and got a useable recording. |
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Post by copperx on Dec 19, 2023 11:57:02 GMT -6
unless you can lay your hands on a KM84. The 84 is more expensive of course, but a classic that will almost never loose out, and almost never get sold. It is the ultimate SDC in uncontrolled environments for me. You can pull back or push in to remove the craziest of room tones. I've even used them at a clients with windows open and gardeners outside and got a useable recording. Speaking of SDCs, I like my Soyuz 013s but I've been curious about the Beyerdynamic 930s. In an old thread you (kinda) said that you hated them. I've wanted to ask you why you don't like them. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 19, 2023 12:23:31 GMT -6
The 84 is more expensive of course, but a classic that will almost never loose out, and almost never get sold. It is the ultimate SDC in uncontrolled environments for me. You can pull back or push in to remove the craziest of room tones. I've even used them at a clients with windows open and gardeners outside and got a useable recording. Speaking of SDCs, I like my Soyuz 013s but I've been curious about the Beyerdynamic 930s. In an old thread you (kinda) said that you hated them. I've wanted to ask you why you don't like them. Not sure if this helps but I own Beyer mc930’s and I’m currently selling them to buy a pair of Soyuz 013’s. The MC930’s are good mics but I never liked them on acoustic guitar. And I think they’re hit or miss on drum OH. The Soyuz, in my limited use, sound so much nicer. Like they capture more harmonic content but without any weird overtones (on acoustic guitar). |
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 19, 2023 12:26:48 GMT -6
The Soyuz 013 is a great mic. I would choose it every time over a KM184 To my ears it is definitely better. But I'm a bit sceptical because there is more low-end. And it will be harder to fix on post-processing in case I will need to fix something. Instead just of adding EQ to it. However Km184 is more moody to positioning (another's opinions). And there are just a lot "more of KM184" on the internet. To many people prefer it and say that its most preferable mic for guitar recordings. So maybe that gives a feeling that it’s true. But my ears just have a bit more different taste, which tends to soyuz, Austrian audio, schoeps(but its to expensive) Well, I know what could help me to make decision today As I understood, there are 2 different concepts in those 2 mics. With Transformers (SU 013) and transformerless (Km 184). Which concept is more reliable? I.e. If I will use it everyday for 5-10 hours for years, for work speech recordings, for guitar recordings, for discrod at free time and so on... Or it doesnt matter at all if its based on transistors or transformers? I wouldn’t worry about wether they’re using transformers or not, worry about how they sound to your ears The Soyuz are great mics and IMHO better than the km184. |
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Post by robschnapf on Dec 19, 2023 15:04:28 GMT -6
The Soyuz 013s are great mics.
They have been living as my overhead mics for several years now.
I prefer them to 184s.
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Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2023 15:27:19 GMT -6
The 84 is more expensive of course, but a classic that will almost never loose out, and almost never get sold. It is the ultimate SDC in uncontrolled environments for me. You can pull back or push in to remove the craziest of room tones. I've even used them at a clients with windows open and gardeners outside and got a useable recording. Speaking of SDCs, I like my Soyuz 013s but I've been curious about the Beyerdynamic 930s. In an old thread you (kinda) said that you hated them. I've wanted to ask you why you don't like them. yeah, brother Bill hates them but he is WRONG>. W R O N G incorrect. The 930s are Amazing on drum overheads. Guitars? Nope, not their strength. |
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Post by stevenlmorgan on Dec 19, 2023 15:41:34 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 19, 2023 16:19:14 GMT -6
If you are recording nylon string classical style guitar vs. steel string folk finger-style your mic choice (and potentially preamp choice) could be very different. I record a little bit of both but I am not targeting a strict orchestral-grade classical (nylon string) sound, so don't make a big deal about it. Meaning, I am ok if I don't capture a pure reality and am quite happy if I capture "something more" somehow in terms of the tonality of the instrument. (and I watched the video and it's a steel string with the "something more" included). There are many different opinions on this, but if I was starting from scratch I would rather have a decently nice mic pair with a decently nice preamp than stellar mics and say the stock preamp of a budget interface (although I'd rather have that vs. nothing!). In other words, from my experience, finding a decent used Shure SM81 (or pair, matched or not) and buying two channels of a decent preamp to go with it would more easily result in a "pro" sound compared to a fancier mic directly into a Scarlett 2i2. (For preamps, a used Buzz Elixir would be excellent choice and I suspect the Iron Age Audio QP5 might be another contender that is even more budget friendly but I have not used it myself...yet) Stereo is definitely your friend for this style in the video. And I think the KM184 pair would do quite well with this style also. To follow it up, I would recommend the MOTU M2 converters vs. the Scarlett (but it's totally off topic). About the value of a decent preamp: the first time I heard an SM57 through an API512 preamp (2005 or so) I suddenly realized why the SM57 was used in pro studios (often) even when other more expensive mics were easily in reach (this was for amp mic of an electric guitar and for some of the best sounding "scratch" vocals I heard up until that point). Good luck with the decision/search and welcome to RGO! Thanks for welcoming aswell ^^ As I described in TS, I already have RME babyface pro fs interface (pretty fine preamp there) with Sennheiser MK4 Mic. Used it for few years and just simple voice recordings for my work. So the most interesting question to me right now is if its possible to add (1 soyuz or 1 neumann or 'whatelse, i.e. beyers930 etc') and recording it together with Sennheiser MK4. For example SDC pointed to 12th Fret for fingerpicking and LDC pointed somewhere to body/soundhole to pick up more from percussive stuff. Or it doesnt make any sense and need to focus on 2 same SDC's, so that I can just sell my MK4 Just to answer specifically about recording acoustic guitar with one SDC and one LDC: absolutely YES. It's done quite frequently. I would even venture to say it might be one of the more popular ways to stereo mic an acoustic guitar. SDC in front, off-axis from the soundhole near where the neck meets the body angled somewhat towards the soundhole, and LDC coming over the top of the strumming shoulder, pointing down generally towards the soundhole. All that said, whether or not to stereo mic an acoustic guitar is entirely dependent on what else is happening in the song. If it's a song with many different instruments, I generally prefer mono guitar. If it's a sparse song where the guitar is the featured instrument (or vocal and guitar are co-featured), then I do like stereo. Also, you mentioned the preamps on your RME Babyface being good enough. I (and many others here) would probably disagree in the long term. They may be fine for now, but that's almost certainly the next thing I would start saving up for after you've got your mics figured out. I own a pair of the Soyuz 013FETs, and I do like them quite a bit. Since you already have an LDC with your Sennheiser MK4, it would be worth a shot to try one SDC with the MK4 and see what you think. You could upgrade the MK4 at some point down the road. You also noted the bassiness of the Soyuz -- yes, they definitely have some low end punch. Sometimes it's a bit too much for me, and that's when I reach for a Serrano 84 as Ward mentioned. And finally, as others have said, welcome to RGO! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 19, 2023 16:52:35 GMT -6
The Soyuz 013 is a great mic. I would choose it every time over a KM184 To my ears it is definitely better. But I'm a bit sceptical because there is more low-end. And it will be harder to fix on post-processing in case I will need to fix something. Instead just of adding EQ to it. However Km184 is more moody to positioning (another's opinions). And there are just a lot "more of KM184" on the internet. To many people prefer it and say that its most preferable mic for guitar recordings. So maybe that gives a feeling that its true. But my ears just have a bit more different taste, which tends to soyuz, Austrian audio, schoeps(but its to expensive) Well, I know what could help me to make decision today As I understood, there are 2 different concepts in those 2 mics. With Transformers (SU 013) and transformerless (Km 184). Which concept is more reliable? I.e. If I will use it everyday for 5-10 hours for years, for work speech recordings, for guitar recordings, for discrod at free time and so on... Or it doesnt matter at all if its based on transistors or transformers? I have both the Soyuz and the Samar MG32...both are killer. I'd honestly go for the Samar at $299 intro price. It's worth 3 times that. It's a little more mid focused than the Soyuz, but you can tell the capsule is high quality because of how easily it takes EQ. It also has a huge off-axis reach. www.samaraudiodesign.com/MG32.htmlrealgearonline.com/post/345689/thread |
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ferry
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by ferry on Dec 19, 2023 17:24:07 GMT -6
Thanks for welcoming aswell ^^ As I described in TS, I already have RME babyface pro fs interface (pretty fine preamp there) with Sennheiser MK4 Mic. Used it for few years and just simple voice recordings for my work. So the most interesting question to me right now is if its possible to add (1 soyuz or 1 neumann or 'whatelse, i.e. beyers930 etc') and recording it together with Sennheiser MK4. For example SDC pointed to 12th Fret for fingerpicking and LDC pointed somewhere to body/soundhole to pick up more from percussive stuff. Or it doesnt make any sense and need to focus on 2 same SDC's, so that I can just sell my MK4 Just to answer specifically about recording acoustic guitar with one SDC and one LDC: absolutely YES. It's done quite frequently. I would even venture to say it might be one of the more popular ways to stereo mic an acoustic guitar. SDC in front, off-axis from the soundhole near where the neck meets the body angled somewhat towards the soundhole, and LDC coming over the top of the strumming shoulder, pointing down generally towards the soundhole. All that said, whether or not to stereo mic an acoustic guitar is entirely dependent on what else is happening in the song. If it's a song with many different instruments, I generally prefer mono guitar. If it's a sparse song where the guitar is the featured instrument (or vocal and guitar are co-featured), then I do like stereo. Also, you mentioned the preamps on your RME Babyface being good enough. I (and many others here) would probably disagree in the long term. They may be fine for now, but that's almost certainly the next thing I would start saving up for after you've got your mics figured out. I own a pair of the Soyuz 013FETs, and I do like them quite a bit. Since you already have an LDC with your Sennheiser MK4, it would be worth a shot to try one SDC with the MK4 and see what you think. You could upgrade the MK4 at some point down the road. You also noted the bassiness of the Soyuz -- yes, they definitely have some low end punch. Sometimes it's a bit too much for me, and that's when I reach for a Serrano 84 as Ward mentioned. And finally, as others have said, welcome to RGO! Thanks for welcomes and also for a lot of info to you and to everyone. Somehow I consider neumann km184 only work with EQ and so far from my point of view with little exp, I think that it should be proceeded easier, than working with already EQ'ed track. But considering the fact of my envinroment (living room without doors with 2 meter opened passage to another room and ladder behind my back, when I sit in from of pc) - it is probably won't possible to record something perfect, just trying to stay realistical So for now will get a Soyuz and play around with mono/stereo with MK4. Regarding preamp - understood, added in mind to the "Wishlist". Just when I will be ready for that. For now, imho - I must also concentrate on treatment. Overall my envinroment is abnormal for any kind of studio rules. Probably will buy more panels, i.e. acoustic foam under my 240x100cm table etc. And play around with positioning as well. But as mentioned... It's just a hobby and I dont expect gorgeous results, its like as good as possible |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 19, 2023 17:31:00 GMT -6
Just to answer specifically about recording acoustic guitar with one SDC and one LDC: absolutely YES. It's done quite frequently. I would even venture to say it might be one of the more popular ways to stereo mic an acoustic guitar. SDC in front, off-axis from the soundhole near where the neck meets the body angled somewhat towards the soundhole, and LDC coming over the top of the strumming shoulder, pointing down generally towards the soundhole. All that said, whether or not to stereo mic an acoustic guitar is entirely dependent on what else is happening in the song. If it's a song with many different instruments, I generally prefer mono guitar. If it's a sparse song where the guitar is the featured instrument (or vocal and guitar are co-featured), then I do like stereo. Also, you mentioned the preamps on your RME Babyface being good enough. I (and many others here) would probably disagree in the long term. They may be fine for now, but that's almost certainly the next thing I would start saving up for after you've got your mics figured out. I own a pair of the Soyuz 013FETs, and I do like them quite a bit. Since you already have an LDC with your Sennheiser MK4, it would be worth a shot to try one SDC with the MK4 and see what you think. You could upgrade the MK4 at some point down the road. You also noted the bassiness of the Soyuz -- yes, they definitely have some low end punch. Sometimes it's a bit too much for me, and that's when I reach for a Serrano 84 as Ward mentioned. And finally, as others have said, welcome to RGO! Thanks for welcomes and also for a lot of info to you and to everyone. Somehow I consider neumann km184 only work with EQ and so far from my point of view with little exp, I think that it should be proceeded easier, than working with already EQ'ed track. But considering the fact of my envinroment (living room without doors with 2 meter opened passage to another room and ladder behind my back, when I sit in from of pc) - it is probably won't possible to record something perfect, just trying to stay realistical So for now will get a Soyuz and play around with mono/stereo with MK4. Regarding preamp - understood, added in mind to the "Wishlist". Just when I will be ready for that. For now, imho - I must also concentrate on treatment. Overall my envinroment is abnormal for any kind of studio rules. Probably will buy more panels, i.e. acoustic foam under my 240x100cm table etc. And play around with positioning as well. But as mentioned... It's just a hobby and I dont expect gorgeous results, its like as good as possible Just saying, I wouldn't poo poo the Samar at all. I think others would back me up on that. Half the price. |
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