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Post by audiospecific on Dec 17, 2023 21:48:43 GMT -6
The admin on DIY Audio says:
Hi thisusername,
I won't argue it, but you have some misconceptions.
Audiophiles generally don't understand electronics or signal processing. Nor do they understand reliability or even basic measurements. Couple that with how your mind will affect what you think you hear, no wonder there is disagreement. On top of that, beliefs, just like religious arguments. Throw into the mix people who will advance ideas for commercial purposes and it's a wonder the average person hasn't given up entirely ... oh wait! They have.
..
Isn't that site suppose to be a place for the inexpirienced to connect with others and learn?
I replied to him:
I'll help out the ones that want to go forward. Because there is so much that either has been forgotten or lost. There are several approaches to applications, and just like any other tech, I am open to all things.
I'll give people the explanation of why I build something a certain way, or chose one part or another or give them a formula or reference to a book, because if they are asking, they want an answer. I have notice some mainstream transformers are not as great as they could be, but there are other factors that can come into play if they are misused. Certain construction types of parts I will apply in one circuit but not another but its all in application. What I quoted that capacitors are #2 as a coupling device and transformers #1 came from textbooks and mentors like Rupert Neve that taught me about parts and parts construction. So this wasn't any religious or spaghetti monster thing like that.
I know science change, and I know capacitors have gotten better in some areas and worse in others and so has transformers, and since my old arthritic self can't stand there and patently spin a transformer like I used to, I have to rely on others to do it with my design specs. Other things changed in the world and some have missed the boat on it. Like analog i/o conventions and so we have good mix engineers that still think everything is at 600 ohms and get upset when you tell them you have to provide a load for the transformer and adjust to the 10K ohm input z for the scale of their equipment to measure correctly. The other way, mic preamps are now like 2.5K instead of 250 ohms, and some either take it in consideration, and boost later while others give up on the interface preamp and use a separate analog pre that was designed with the 80 year old specifications. That work with their antique $15K microphone.
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2023 7:38:49 GMT -6
I agree with them. IF the circuit in question has no electrical limitations, then all else being equal, parts like capacitors will make very little difference in overall tone. So by saying these things, they ARE teaching you. They're teaching you that it doesn't matter as much as one might think.
The issue is that people easily mistake electrical interactions with part's attributes for a part having an inherent sound. I've had the same arguments with folks for 20+ years now. Someone will argue that they *hear* the difference and that's enough for them, and that's usually the Audiophile's take.
I've offered to put a number of these things up for test and have never once been taken up on it.
If you take a part and swap it with another part of EQUAL specs, then it will sound the exact same.
What generally happens is that people swap parts with wildly different specs and "hear" a difference. OK, but you're exposing how vulnerable the circuit was to a part's attributes, not exposing the "tone" of the part itself.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 18, 2023 11:14:40 GMT -6
I agree with them. IF the circuit in question has no electrical limitations, then all else being equal, parts like capacitors will make very little difference in overall tone. So by saying these things, they ARE teaching you. They're teaching you that it doesn't matter as much as one might think. The issue is that people easily mistake electrical interactions with part's attributes for a part having an inherent sound. I've had the same arguments with folks for 20+ years now. Someone will argue that they *hear* the difference and that's enough for them, and that's usually the Audiophile's take. I've offered to put a number of these things up for test and have never once been taken up on it. If you take a part and swap it with another part of EQUAL specs, then it will sound the exact same. What generally happens is that people swap parts with wildly different specs and "hear" a difference. OK, but you're exposing how vulnerable the circuit was to a part's attributes, not exposing the "tone" of the part itself.
If is a big word.
But you are correct some will lend a character in some circuits and be different in others. There are some constant varibles too like insertion loss and noise in band and out of band that come into play. There are things that are known about different part types for the AC coupling method (transformers vs capacitors). The only thing they haven't understand yet, they all have different distortion profiles unique to their dielectric and construction. In tube circuits they tend to amplify these small characteristics, but so does high impedance FET circuits too. His post was in his new section "Electronic Design" so I was giving people info I know.
"If you take a part and swap it with another part of EQUAL specs, then it will sound the exact same." That is subjective because nothing has equal specs. But I wouldn't put a silver mica in as a bypass cap in the power supply to replace the ceramic guy because the silver mica part couldn't handle the inrush current on the power supply, for example. Polypropylene caps for the same reason. Coupling, its how the part interacts with the Dc voltage potential at the circuit's operating impedance, which would dictate how sensitive it would be.
If I repair something, like some guitarist cherished amp he played for years, I would try to get that part or a part that would be the same construction type. Because he wants his amp fixed and sound just the same. I gotten someone's amp to repair just because the music store changed a resistor and fixed it but now the guy hates the amp sound because the music store put in a metal film resistor. Or changed the wax paper out in the reverb with a poly and it doesn't have the smoothing effect to the sound and now sounds tinny.
Just like the tube sounds and from different manufacturers. There are ways to build gear to suck the life out of the harmonics so a tube change don't change the tone and there are ways to make it where every tube, including in the lot of the same brand would sound different. Many didn't believe that until those Klark clones popped up. Then they ask me how they could change it.
The sound of NOS tubes. Is another. I told them the 'school of thought' one of the engineers of Amperex and other European tube engineers have with tubes. They looked at the tube as a small transmitting and receiving device for electrons, and elements were like antennas and shaping them as well as playing with different metals lend to different tones or harmonics. Was they right or was they wrong? It just seems funny denying what they think but seek their tubes because of their harmonic characters.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 20, 2023 13:49:58 GMT -6
I agree with them. IF the circuit in question has no electrical limitations, then all else being equal, parts like capacitors will make very little difference in overall tone. So by saying these things, they ARE teaching you. They're teaching you that it doesn't matter as much as one might think. The issue is that people easily mistake electrical interactions with part's attributes for a part having an inherent sound. I've had the same arguments with folks for 20+ years now. Someone will argue that they *hear* the difference and that's enough for them, and that's usually the Audiophile's take. I've offered to put a number of these things up for test and have never once been taken up on it. If you take a part and swap it with another part of EQUAL specs, then it will sound the exact same. What generally happens is that people swap parts with wildly different specs and "hear" a difference. OK, but you're exposing how vulnerable the circuit was to a part's attributes, not exposing the "tone" of the part itself. Yeah , we have seen the audiophile concept of fashionable parts take its place in the pro world. Besides people not understanding the fact that parts tolerances and things such as thermal capacity mean more than branding, the Average end user doesn’t understand that not all Vishay resistors, Alps pots or even Panasonic Capacitors are the same. Most don’t even understand what difference in capacitor dialectric means nor what should be used in what situations ( I’ll admit I’m not educated enough in this area). The thing is these customers think these names insure a quality product, even transformers “ hey it’s x brand” it must be great, never thinking that “x” might be wi ding a cheaper custom version or have some really Cheap OEM winding for them. Audiophiles only kind of want to know what’s going on inside, enough to seam like they know more than their friends. Ask your average audiophile what the difference between class A, B and AB are, I’ll bet 1 in 10 knows. Hell I was at an MD’s X mas party last week he thought I would be impressed by his $$ Rohdinium outlets, I would have been far more impressed if he had run a 20 or 30 amp circuit with oversized cable. I mean 500 watt mono blocks are impressive, more so if they aren’t tripping breakers. |
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 20, 2023 16:49:26 GMT -6
I agree with them. IF the circuit in question has no electrical limitations, then all else being equal, parts like capacitors will make very little difference in overall tone. So by saying these things, they ARE teaching you. They're teaching you that it doesn't matter as much as one might think. The issue is that people easily mistake electrical interactions with part's attributes for a part having an inherent sound. I've had the same arguments with folks for 20+ years now. Someone will argue that they *hear* the difference and that's enough for them, and that's usually the Audiophile's take. I've offered to put a number of these things up for test and have never once been taken up on it. If you take a part and swap it with another part of EQUAL specs, then it will sound the exact same. What generally happens is that people swap parts with wildly different specs and "hear" a difference. OK, but you're exposing how vulnerable the circuit was to a part's attributes, not exposing the "tone" of the part itself. Yeah , we have seen the audiophile concept of fashionable parts take its place in the pro world. Besides people not understanding the fact that parts tolerances and things such as thermal capacity mean more than branding, the Average end user doesn’t understand that not all Vishay resistors, Alps pots or even Panasonic Capacitors are the same. Most don’t even understand what difference in capacitor dialectric means nor what should be used in what situations ( I’ll admit I’m not educated enough in this area). The thing is these customers think these names insure a quality product, even transformers “ hey it’s x brand” it must be great, never thinking that “x” might be wi ding a cheaper custom version or have some really Cheap OEM winding for them. Audiophiles only kind of want to know what’s going on inside, enough to seam like they know more than their friends. Ask your average audiophile what the difference between class A, B and AB are, I’ll bet 1 in 10 knows. Hell I was at an MD’s X mas party last week he thought I would be impressed by his $$ Rohdinium outlets, I would have been far more impressed if he had run a 20 or 30 amp circuit with oversized cable. I mean 500 watt mono blocks are impressive, more so if they aren’t tripping breakers.
Correct. Parts construction and how it interacts is quite of an advanced subject. I never looked at brands other than who bought out who and hopefully that part series stays the same quality under the new manufacturer. Some parts in circuit are necessary evils because the circuit dictates it. How different types apply physically in a circuit is more of an experience thing. Just like learning how to run compressors and limiters and knowing where, when and how to apply them, what type, etc.
My trade is electronics and electronics repair. For the last 30 years it has degraded and declined. I am a musician, as I know how to play my instrument, but its not my day job. My day job is between doing the stage hand thing, mixing for them from time to time, and repairing, modifying, or creating new electronics stuff. This includes audio. I went to a college in the late 80s and went through its TV/VCR repair certification course. Even though I already had half of that knowledge, because at 15 I worked at an arcade and assisted the repair guy. What was interesting, is I found out that school years before, contracted Rupert Neve to create the learning materials for a semester covering parts and their construction, and the typical ones around and their typical industry uses. What specifications and how they inter react with other devices in circuit. So anytime, I bring out that knowledge, it intimidates people. Especially a know-it-all audiophile. I research and before the internet was like it was, I was on news groups talking to people. Also, back where I grew up, there was a few radio and computer swap things that happened frequently. So I got to talk to people like RF engineers from Bell Helicopter or Lockheed Martin during those things. Music has always been around me in one way shape or form and I did pick up mixing quickly. However, I was told that its better to keep learning electronics and computer stuff. I gotten into designing stuff to take my knowledge to the next level. However, because I'm not employed by UA or SSL or have the $$$ to roll things out at a commercial level, I'm afraid of what I build, will go lost and forgotten or even worse, rejected because its not a clone of something another brilliant mind made in the past.
I miss brilliant people people like me with my knowledge set online. I hope they are doing ok. Granted, I do have a few like Matt Syson that thinks I've gone totally mad because I will take a subject past his knowledge set that he calls 'reality' but that's because I want to free his mind from the confines of 'convention'. Hopefully, he has gotten less of a 'snoot' about things talking to people.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2023 17:49:43 GMT -6
This AM had a guy bragging about the mic he just built with a bunch of Blackgate Capacitors, didn’t have the heart to break his spirit and tell him most Blackgates for sale today are fakes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2023 18:30:53 GMT -6
Sure but 99.99% of audio lovers, musicians, mixers, song writers or mastering engineers don't or ever will know or care about it to that extent. As a general descriptor it's sufficient.. I used to build audio equipment (HW, mainly ref int, voice (which came with a lot of cool stuff), plugs, pbx's etc.) and I've argued the likes of nyquist, clocking or some other technical challenge to a deep degree over the years. Ultimately I realised it's an exercise in futility. Einstein's definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over then expecting different results, so what's it going to be? |
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 21, 2023 21:16:16 GMT -6
Sure but 99.99% of audio lovers, musicians, mixers, song writers or mastering engineers don't or ever will know or care about it to that extent. As a general descriptor it's sufficient..
General descriptors do suffice most times when others don't chime in and sit there debating what you say or bring up an aspect that is out of scope for the topic. |
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 21, 2023 21:25:44 GMT -6
This AM had a guy bragging about the mic he just built with a bunch of Blackgate Capacitors, didn’t have the heart to break his spirit and tell him most Blackgates for sale today are fakes.
Its crazy that they are still even sold if they are real.
Blackgate stopped manufacturing in 2006. I wouldn't want to use something that was sitting around that long, especially an electrolytic.
I think Panasonic bought their electrolyte formulas, but I'll have to contact someone that would be in the know to verify that.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 4:39:46 GMT -6
GrupDIY adds to the list of junk sites.
Interesting someone is masquerading as some transformer engineer that doesn't know about simple electronics. Nor the subject he suppose to be an expert about.
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