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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 13:10:04 GMT -6
And it’s not plugins. Well, I don’t need any more plugs. Not that I don’t want more.
But what I feel like my mixes miss compared to some of the modern mixes I hear (and I guess you could add in all great sounding older recordings I like) is the width and depth/separation of instruments. Where center feels dramatically separate from the sides) And I don’t know if I think that all comes from mixing. Now - I could be wrong. Maybe I’ll look back and say this was an immature thing to say - but I really think it’s that last step of hardware that really makes that effect prominent. I do think the Burl AD would give me a little of that when I printed, but I’ve been trying to get around printing for a long time now. Summing is just so freaking expensive. I’d love to go back to a Sumbus, but is 8 channels enough to give me what I want? Then I’d have to get more I/O (I have an x6 and Burl DA.)
Guess I could buy a second one of my pres and print with that…or a silver bullet, but that’s pricey too.
Anybody know a cheat?
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Post by lowlou on Nov 25, 2023 13:15:44 GMT -6
Maybe Airwindows console plugins ? Free.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 13:19:48 GMT -6
Maybe Airwindows console plugins ? Free. I guess I kinda contradicted myself by saying “plugs can’t do it” and “can someone point me to some plugs” but hey - maybe you guys know of something I don’t know of. Not sure airwindows is aax. I already use slate vcc and have tried others. Maybe that was really my point in the thread - the only thing that seems to do this is hardware. |
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Post by bgrotto on Nov 25, 2023 13:21:35 GMT -6
And it’s not plugins. Well, I don’t need any more plugs. Not that I don’t want more. But what I feel like my mixes miss compared to some of the modern mixes I hear (and I guess you could add in all great sounding older recordings I like) is the width and depth/separation of instruments. Where center feels dramatically separate from the sides) And I don’t know if I think that all comes from mixing. Now - I could be wrong. Maybe I’ll look back and say this was an immature thing to say - but I really think it’s that last step of hardware that really makes that effect prominent. I do think the Burl AD would give me a little of that when I printed, but I’ve been trying to get around printing for a long time now. Summing is just so freaking expensive. I’d love to go back to a Sumbus, but is 8 channels enough to give me what I want? Then I’d have to get more I/O (I have an x6 and Burl DA.) Guess I could buy a second one of my pres and print with that…or a silver bullet, but that’s pricey too. Anybody know a cheat? Silver Bullet will definitely help. I swore by mine on EVERY mix, for years, before I got my new console. Such a great box. And now I'm selling my SB, if you're interested.... |
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 25, 2023 13:32:34 GMT -6
Hey John,
It could be hundred small things but the first thing that came to mind was how are you using your reverbs in the mix? Do you use one room reverb that everything feeds or does each instrument/group get its own reverb?
I’ve found that using one (or two) ambiences that everything feeds creates more glue in the mix. But giving every group bus, or individual instrument its own Verb creates more separation.
Just food for thought. Could totally be the hardware thing two.
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Post by lowlou on Nov 25, 2023 13:34:14 GMT -6
You could consider a Spacecraft OnTheMoon stereo width tool on your master. It will make things wide. Maybe not in a summing way, that said  . But it's a good sounding processor. xxxx |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 15:18:27 GMT -6
Hey John, It could be hundred small things but the first thing that came to mind was how are you using your reverbs in the mix? Do you use one room reverb that everything feeds or does each instrument/group get its own reverb? I’ve found that using one (or two) ambiences that everything feeds creates more glue in the mix. But giving every group bus, or individual instrument its own Verb creates more separation. Just food for thought. Could totally be the hardware thing two. Wouldn’t be that. I don’t really use any room reverbs…probably only run one or two. Vocals and snare. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 15:22:16 GMT -6
I’m not entirely sure how to even describe it…maybe it’s like a depth/dimension thing. Because it’s not that it’s wider left and right, it’s that it has more separation between the left/right and center. I know all these are cliches, but maybe I’m talking about something sounding more 3 dimensional as opposed to flatter.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 15:47:10 GMT -6
Maybe I’ll go demo that Katz width plug again after reading the BF sales thread. I already use a lot of techniques to widen, but maybe it’s as simple as doing that more efficiently and better.
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Post by ragan on Nov 25, 2023 15:58:17 GMT -6
I think I know exactly what you’re talking about Johnkenn. I think it the super annoying thing of “it’s everything”. Room, instrument, arrangement, performance, mix, hardware/console. That said, you work with well done tracks and you know what you’re doing. So maybe it actuall *is* some specific, missing thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:09:55 GMT -6
And it’s not plugins. Well, I don’t need any more plugs. Not that I don’t want more. But what I feel like my mixes miss compared to some of the modern mixes I hear (and I guess you could add in all great sounding older recordings I like) is the width and depth/separation of instruments. Where center feels dramatically separate from the sides) And I don’t know if I think that all comes from mixing. Now - I could be wrong. Maybe I’ll look back and say this was an immature thing to say - but I really think it’s that last step of hardware that really makes that effect prominent. I do think the Burl AD would give me a little of that when I printed, but I’ve been trying to get around printing for a long time now. Summing is just so freaking expensive. I’d love to go back to a Sumbus, but is 8 channels enough to give me what I want? Then I’d have to get more I/O (I have an x6 and Burl DA.) Guess I could buy a second one of my pres and print with that…or a silver bullet, but that’s pricey too. Anybody know a cheat? Do you take the bass out of the sides? Older music has every instrument with low end centered, no rumble, and the bass taken off the sides for vinyl. Now everything but the vocals are usually fake so they're able to center those and just build everything around them in the production stage with a lot of elements as filler for contrast with different fx sends, sidechained or distorted however they want and get away with it because there is no expectation of a semi-realistic or coherent space in popular music anymore. How can there be when everything is multibanded now? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 16:20:38 GMT -6
I think I know exactly what you’re talking about Johnkenn. I think it the super annoying thing of “it’s everything”. Room, instrument, arrangement, performance, mix, hardware/console. That said, you work with well done tracks and you know what you’re doing. So maybe it actuall *is* some specific, missing thing. Yeah - I mean I’ve heard it before…when I had a sumbus lol |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 16:25:33 GMT -6
And it’s not plugins. Well, I don’t need any more plugs. Not that I don’t want more. But what I feel like my mixes miss compared to some of the modern mixes I hear (and I guess you could add in all great sounding older recordings I like) is the width and depth/separation of instruments. Where center feels dramatically separate from the sides) And I don’t know if I think that all comes from mixing. Now - I could be wrong. Maybe I’ll look back and say this was an immature thing to say - but I really think it’s that last step of hardware that really makes that effect prominent. I do think the Burl AD would give me a little of that when I printed, but I’ve been trying to get around printing for a long time now. Summing is just so freaking expensive. I’d love to go back to a Sumbus, but is 8 channels enough to give me what I want? Then I’d have to get more I/O (I have an x6 and Burl DA.) Guess I could buy a second one of my pres and print with that…or a silver bullet, but that’s pricey too. Anybody know a cheat? Do you take the bass out of the sides? Older music has every instrument with low end centered, no rumble, and the bass taken off the sides for vinyl. Now everything but the vocals are usually fake so they're able to center those and just build everything around them in the production stage with a lot of elements as filler for contrast with different fx sends, sidechained or distorted however they want and get away with it because there is no expectation of a semi-realistic or coherent space in popular music anymore. How can there be when everything is multibanded now? I don’t. You mean move everything below say 100hz to the center? When I use ozone 11’s imager, I usually don’t really do anything from about 1khz down to say 125. Then I make below that more towards mono with that module. |
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Post by bossanova on Nov 25, 2023 16:29:44 GMT -6
Aspect Ratio on the Silver Bullet plug has a significant effect and doesn’t sound like the usual phase-widening to my ears.
When I listen to old ELO albums (some of the newer remasters have been narrowed, deliberately or otherwise) with these lush, wide mixes, the panning stands out to me. You have very dry, double tracked guitars and mono keys panned all the way out to the sides, strings and background vocals and overheads filling in the diagonals, and the rhythm section and Jeff’s voice in the center, usually doubled and with a slap delay because he didn’t like reverb on his lead vocal.
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Post by drbill on Nov 25, 2023 16:31:43 GMT -6
I think I know exactly what you’re talking about Johnkenn . I think it the super annoying thing of “it’s everything”. Room, instrument, arrangement, performance, mix, hardware/console. That said, you work with well done tracks and you know what you’re doing. So maybe it actuall *is* some specific, missing thing. Yeah - I mean I’ve heard it before…when I had a sumbus lol It's the interactive phase anomalies that play into and against each other in the analog domain. They don't happen the same way in the digital domain. Unless you're talking about what I call "fake" ms widening which works as it should in DAWs. I mean how much "wider" can you get than hard L and hard R. That depth, dimension, width, etc. is what analog gear brings to the table. It's hard to touch, impossible to describe, difficult to achieve, tricky to sustain without the right gear, and incredibly tough to forget once you get used to it. It's called analog. Sumbus = Analog, and those little electrons bouncing off each other is what you love. |
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Post by nomatic on Nov 25, 2023 16:32:31 GMT -6
Silver Bullet is quite helpful for this
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Post by drbill on Nov 25, 2023 16:33:51 GMT -6
Aspect Ratio on the Silver Bullet plug has a significant effect and doesn’t sound like the usual phase-widening to my ears. I've heard it from reliable sources that the real deal is analog.... . Haha! But yeah, the plugin approaches it. I have to admit that it's also very convenient. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 25, 2023 17:00:44 GMT -6
That sounds is the sound of large format consoles. To me anyways.
So I'd get a sumbuss again especially if that's where you've heard it before. It do a 16ch version minimum as that gives you 8 stereo channels which is usually easy to break a mix down into 8 stereo groups. Or you can do 1-4 monos and the rest stereo.
Slap a silver bullet on the back side of that and you'll basically have the sound of a LFC without the space requirements and electric bill.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 17:02:31 GMT -6
Do you take the bass out of the sides? Older music has every instrument with low end centered, no rumble, and the bass taken off the sides for vinyl. Now everything but the vocals are usually fake so they're able to center those and just build everything around them in the production stage with a lot of elements as filler for contrast with different fx sends, sidechained or distorted however they want and get away with it because there is no expectation of a semi-realistic or coherent space in popular music anymore. How can there be when everything is multibanded now? I don’t. You mean move everything below say 100hz to the center? When I use ozone 11’s imager, I usually don’t really do anything from about 1khz down to say 125. Then I make below that more towards mono with that module. Yeah bass is mono but often lower than 125 filter. I use Klanghelm VUMT deluxe or TDR Slick EQ M to do that. I'm going to switch to the new TDR Elliptical filter because it can distort what's below the filter like MaxxBass but with more options so you can retain harmonics of what you removed. Also try very wide room or hall reverb settings and sending everything to them. Filter the low end beforehand, sometimes very high, up to 400-500 hz. Filter the highs after the reverb. You do set many reverbs past 100% width and control the width over different frequency ranges too. Slower music can generally take bigger spaces. This is free width even mixed down to where it barely is audible. You can also automate a stereo widener as a special effect. goodhertz.com/midside/ is a good one that won't produce zipper noise when automated. Or use panned short delays to exploit the haas effect. be sure to check in mono to see if they screw up your mix from phase cancellation |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 25, 2023 17:07:09 GMT -6
Yeah - I mean I’ve heard it before…when I had a sumbus lol It's the interactive phase anomalies that play into and against each other in the analog domain. They don't happen the same way in the digital domain. Unless you're talking about what I call "fake" ms widening which works as it should in DAWs. I mean how much "wider" can you get than hard L and hard R. That depth, dimension, width, etc. is what analog gear brings to the table. It's hard to touch, impossible to describe, difficult to achieve, tricky to sustain without the right gear, and incredibly tough to forget once you get used to it. It's called analog. Sumbus = Analog, and those little electrons bouncing off each other is what you love. Yeah I’ve wondered if what we’re describing as width and depth and dimension is actually phase issues between channels. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 25, 2023 17:11:54 GMT -6
It's the interactive phase anomalies that play into and against each other in the analog domain. They don't happen the same way in the digital domain. Unless you're talking about what I call "fake" ms widening which works as it should in DAWs. I mean how much "wider" can you get than hard L and hard R. That depth, dimension, width, etc. is what analog gear brings to the table. It's hard to touch, impossible to describe, difficult to achieve, tricky to sustain without the right gear, and incredibly tough to forget once you get used to it. It's called analog. Sumbus = Analog, and those little electrons bouncing off each other is what you love. Yeah I’ve wondered if what we’re describing as width and depth and dimension is actually phase issues between channels. That and all the different paths the electrons take through various components which are anywhere from +/-5-30% each so those discrepancies add up to really change the sound. That's why the sumbbus works so well compared to other basic sum mixers. It actually has a ton of parts through each signal path. |
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Post by spindrift on Nov 25, 2023 17:38:22 GMT -6
Width - Depth - Dimension ❤️
WAY easier to achieve (even ITB) when tracked well with a more sparse arrangement. Folks constantly putting too much stuff in a song.
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Post by timcampbell on Nov 25, 2023 17:48:27 GMT -6
John top end creates space. Maybe you spend too much time making every instrument sound good on it's own? I don't know your mixing process but starting with vocals and then bringing instruments up behind can help. Getting rid of some instruments you have added for sweetening can help. Splitting instruments to stereo and adding a few millisecond delay ( starting at 5ms and moving it up until the instrument just fades into the background a bit) on one side can sometimes help. Can't wait to hear what your solution ends up being.
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Post by ragan on Nov 25, 2023 23:24:24 GMT -6
I think I know exactly what you’re talking about Johnkenn. I think it the super annoying thing of “it’s everything”. Room, instrument, arrangement, performance, mix, hardware/console. That said, you work with well done tracks and you know what you’re doing. So maybe it actuall *is* some specific, missing thing. Yeah - I mean I’ve heard it before…when I had a sumbus lol I still want a SumBus too. Somewhere down the road when I have more time (if they’re still available) I’ll probably build a 16 channel one. |
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Post by drumsound on Nov 26, 2023 0:16:07 GMT -6
I’m not entirely sure how to even describe it…maybe it’s like a depth/dimension thing. Because it’s not that it’s wider left and right, it’s that it has more separation between the left/right and center. I know all these are cliches, but maybe I’m talking about something sounding more 3 dimensional as opposed to flatter. This and your first post sound like LCR mixing, but maybe I'm not getting what you're after. |
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. But it's a good sounding processor. 
