Hybrid vs ITB --> test

I'm with Dr Bill on this one - Hybrid has a bigness and depth that is lacking on the ITB mix. I instantly chose the hybrid mix on first listen.

I too mix hybrid most of the time, which alwas beats ITB mixes for me. I prefer console mixes over hybrid too, but no one can handle the workflow/recall limitations these days! Hybrid is almost as good!

The ITB mix survives the lossy codec and streaming playback through the operating system's processing much better. The added low end distortion translates better while the hybrid mix sounds anemic over youtube. There's already enough digital distortion on this mix from the limiter to overshadow whatever interesting analog distortion you are getting. Most of your listeners for this sort of music will be through a lossy codec. Why not clean up the digital one a bit?

Your complaint about hardware treating transients better is because you are using poor digital compressors. Using better performing ones will reduce misreads by the peak detectors that lead to over and under shoot. Of course these add cpu use and latency from FIR filters. See BS.1770-4 and take into account that this is under ideal test circumstances. You cannot hit poor digital compressors particularly hard but you can hit good digital ones harder than the overwhelming majority of analog ones because they have more program dependent control paths that would be cost prohibitive to build and maintain with analog components. A typical auto release setting has two capacitors for two time constants. U-he Presswerk has eight.

The hybrid mix had less homogenized transients (the difference I usually notice) but honestly, I don't think it makes all that much difference in the grander scheme. I bet the client was happy either way and listening on Youtube, the subtleties aren't going to make or break the mix.

Hybrid is fun but TBH, half the time I consider selling a significant chunk of my outboard gear because the difference it makes often doesn't justify (to me) the money wrapped up in it, the inconvenience of recall, or stressing over a client getting you notes so you can use the gear on something else. If my mix sucks, it's never been because of the tools, other than the one turning the knobs and clicking the mouse.

Thanks for the comparison and video. You execute nicely your videos, nice job. Absolutely you can hear the difference here of A and B. But as you mentioned, the ITB would require a different approach. Now it seems as you have rather matched settings between hw and plugs than used use the tools required ITB to make a mix that matches the hybrid one. Or to create two equally good mixes on their own. I think you would end up with at least a similar grade of difference between two hybrid mixes using different hardware. At least I got that impression from your layout. Not being disrespectful or questioning the approach, just not fully personally understanding the expected outcome? Please elaborate to me since I am genuinely really interested in the topic in a constructive manner.

I have myself come to a conclusion that if you track with the appropriate hardware and quality for the sound you are after and mix itb, it makes hybrid mixing redundant sound wise. Disregarding the factor of habits and developed workflows, only looking at the end product. I think Scheps is a perfect example of this listening to his pre and post moving itb productions. I would actually go as far as saying hybrid might save a badly executed recording, just to throw a thinker in the air

the overall issue with "hybrid vs. ITB" tests is that the ITB always attempts to recreate the hybrid sound instead of finding its own sound.

After years of using hybrid, and switching to mostly ITB, I've found that the approaches are indeed different and can't simply be copied.

I also believed hybrid to be far superior for decades.. Until I actually went ITB and gave it a *real* chance. It took a lot of learning and opening of a closed mind but now I know that when used properly, it's as good as any other workflow.

It's true. 

Besides the preamps, I typically use a compressor (1176) on vocals.  On bass I either use the "tone" control on the Avalon U5 (or a CAPI EQ if a different DI) plus a compressor (1176).  Drums and guitars get no EQ or compression going in. 

Mostly I do those things to get a more consistent level going in, but also impart a bit of that mojo as well.  

However, ITB I also crush both of those again with more compression.  Bass might even get compression before and then after a chain of distortion and EQ plugs.

It is just so much easier to mix great sounding tracks, be it ITB or whatever. I know it's super obvious, but I do think a lot of the chatter around this (not so much here on this board) is just people struggling to mix crappy tracks ITB and looking for magic boxes. 

Ok, so I listened to the video. It IS youtube, so I didn't expect much.

Annnd I didn't hear much. 99% the same. The ITB mix had some bottom end bloom that I didn't like but overall even though it sounded "heavier" to me than the hybrid mix.

google search “BS.1770-4” first result, page 20 of the pdf for peak detector misread at various sample rates and this number may look small but is still significant because dynamics processors without lookahead are constantly switching between attack and release so something like a UAD2 plug, pro-c 2, or Presswerk running at 192 kHz cannot be as fast as any hardware 1176 can but other digital compressors like Kotelnikov or DC8C3 set right can. Others can smash with lookaheads but won’t grab JUST the transients or the signal over the threshold based on how lookaheads work which can be problematic.

I listened briefly, so I didn't consider all aspects (transients, bass, grit...). The ITB was more transparent immediately, and in subsequent listens to both the pre-vocal instrumental and the vocal section I tried to see if I could be dissuaded. I wasn't. I was looking for either the sound I liked, or at least an apparent differentiating factor, not to guess which one was hybrid and ITB.

Now, I understand that what I heard as transparent, others might hear as thinner or something else. Transparency gives me the feeling of greater depth, but to others it might give them the opposite feeling. And this was a quick take on my part. If I scrutinized the tracks—and these are subject to what youtube encoding adds—who knows, maybe I find a fault that I don't like ITB and is fine on hybrid.

Interesting experiment—good stuff as usual, Christian. Thanks!

Eric Broyhill told me he made the transition from AE to ME because he made better decisions working quickly.  (I'm paraphrasing).

I'm not going to be an ME anytime soon, but one thing I love about quick recall (which both hybrid and ITB can accommodate) is that jumping from song to song as I hit a wall on insight (not to mention taking some time away from the project where possible) can yield great results.