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Post by phdamage on Aug 31, 2023 10:20:16 GMT -6
so I've been rocking an OG Antelope Orion 32 for years now. No complaints about sound quality, stability, etc. (I recognize this may be controversial) - it does what I need it to do. However, now that I'm starting to incorporate some hardware into my mixing flow, I would love to have some things permanently routed via my Orion. My thinking was that since I usually only used 24 inputs for tracking, I could make use of 25-32. well, apparently for windows 10, this is still an issue with this hardware. I see lots of folks singing the praises of RME MADI to USB unit to rectify this issue. However, these are about $1k. for about another $100, I can snag another used Orion 32. I thought about selling the Orion 32 and getting a newer version, but it seems to have the same problem. and any other converter I know of seems to max out at 16 in/out or costs a boat load more. Anyone have any bright ideas? def leaning towards getting a second Orion 32
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 10:51:48 GMT -6
There hasn’t been really any new development in converters beyond making the chips and thus converters lower power and being able to cram more in. Cheap isn’t good though because the actual converter IC is one of the cheapest parts unless they’re using the latest and greatest ESS or AKM chips that the fabricators can’t even make consistently. Dangerous is using 20 year old AD1955 DAC chips and they’re not worse than other high end stuff.
options on windows:
1. RME interface and somehow use the Orions as standalone. They’re Madi so you would need one of the Madifaces, the UFX III, or the HDSPe PCI-E card for the lowest latency in any interface. I don’t know if you need 2 madi input ports or not for two of the Orions.
2. RME interface and 32 channel converter:
SPL Madison is great if you can find it.
Ferrofish A32 Pro is 3k
RME M32 Pro is 4K. The cheaper ones are just AD or DA, not both.
Maybe get another, better monitoring DA over AES or SPDIF. Maybe a mastering ADC too if you get some work for that and want to print hardware.
3. Admit you get what you pay for. A Lynx Aurora N 32 channel is 6k and could replace everything with lower latency over thunderbolt.
4. Dante pcie card and Dante stuff. Mega $$$$
Other options are mac only like Apogee Symphony II SE 32 channel is 9k and I’m sure the new 16 SE converter module is awesome given how good the 2x6 SE and Desktop are. Metric Halo mk IV ditched the ancient AKM chips and NE5532 for lower power modern parts.
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Post by Ward on Aug 31, 2023 10:54:43 GMT -6
I would get a new Lynx
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Post by svart on Aug 31, 2023 10:56:18 GMT -6
Can you elaborate on what you mean by win10 has issues with this hardware?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 11:02:58 GMT -6
Lynx does not fuck around with the sound, build quality, or drivers but is only very low latency over thunderbolt and pci-e. If you need low round trip latency over usb to play amp sims or vsti synths on a laptop or an amd motherboard, rme interfaces have the lowest latency over usb. The plastic poseur production option for this is to buy an Apollo Twin and print the Softube Plexi that comes with it because you can’t figure out TotalMix, how to use a splitter to get a di off a small practice amp, or how to make the small practice amp sound huge in the mix. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2023 11:04:22 GMT -6
This was my second thought, my first was before investing in a different converter was I understand wanting to go the DRBill keep it patched to the interface route. How often am I using or need all the inputs? Could I take another page from the DRBill playbook and invest in decent patchbays? Of course I’ll admit the fact that I had the channel count and couldn’t use it would probably push me towards Lynx. The guys at Antelope and all their prior companies have this deeply ingrained propensity to piss people off. They are great at clocks and sync ( I’ll die before I part with my old Aardsync) but their other products have always had issues, at least Antelope has lasted longer than their other ventures. |
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Post by enlav on Aug 31, 2023 11:14:02 GMT -6
Can you elaborate on what you mean by win10 has issues with this hardware? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's less about the OS and more about not being able to transfer 32x32 across USB. Not stating it's a limitation of USB (theoretically, it shouldn't be), but rather that various combinations of cards/drivers/whateveritis seem to limit most people to 24 channels. At least, that was the result of my findings back when I was looking at interfaces years back.
As an Aurora(n) owner, I would note that it's great never really doubting my conversion, but part of me wonders if I could have been happy enough with a MOTU or something far more affordable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 11:15:25 GMT -6
This was my second thought, my first was before investing in a different converter was I understand wanting to go the DRBill keep it patched to the interface route. How often am I using or need all the inputs? Could I take another page from the DRBill playbook and invest in decent patchbays? Of course I’ll admit the fact that I had the channel count and couldn’t use it would probably push me towards Lynx. The guys at Antelope and all their prior companies have this deeply ingrained propensity to piss people off. They are great at clocks and sync ( I’ll die before I part with my old Aardsync) but their other products have always had issues, at least Antelope has lasted longer than their other ventures. Antelope/Aardvark are not really made in Bulgaria. They are made in China. Same as all current SSL and Focusrite products and probably most RME. They have pirated no name electrical parts and junk caps in them you can’t get in the US and most other countries except from Ali Express. Meanwhile Apogee, Lynx, and Metric Halo are made in the USA. You can hear the sound difference. It is not trivial. Anyone who says it is is deaf or lying. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 11:17:24 GMT -6
Can you elaborate on what you mean by win10 has issues with this hardware? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's less about the OS and more about not being able to transfer 32x32 across USB. Not stating it's a limitation of USB (theoretically, it shouldn't be), but rather that various combinations of cards/drivers/whateveritis seem to limit most people to 24 channels. At least, that was the result of my findings back when I was looking at interfaces years back.
As an Aurora(n) owner, I would note that it's great never really doubting my conversion, but part of me wonders if I could have been happy enough with a MOTU or something far more affordable.
It’s antelope and aardvark having the worst product support ever and worst digital drivers ever. Sub Focusrite. Worse than Behringer admitting they have no drivers and there will never be any. Focusrite might write drivers years later. Antelope? No way in fuckin hell. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2023 12:00:13 GMT -6
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's less about the OS and more about not being able to transfer 32x32 across USB. Not stating it's a limitation of USB (theoretically, it shouldn't be), but rather that various combinations of cards/drivers/whateveritis seem to limit most people to 24 channels. At least, that was the result of my findings back when I was looking at interfaces years back.
As an Aurora(n) owner, I would note that it's great never really doubting my conversion, but part of me wonders if I could have been happy enough with a MOTU or something far more affordable.
It’s antelope and aardvark having the worst product support ever and worst digital drivers ever. Sub Focusrite. Worse than Behringer admitting they have no drivers and there will never be any. Focusrite might write drivers years later. Antelope? No way in fuckin hell. m There were 2 other companies in between Arrdvark and Antelope but I can’t remember the names. If you need SMPTE a used Ardsync is a steal, if you trash the wall wart and use a nice regulated PSU, it’s a step up from most clocks, this is not by judging sonics but by using a scope. The drivers have always been an issue, if an Antelope product doesn’t ship with a working driver, you will never see it. Hell if someone was a decent coder you could probably make a few pennies writing and selling drivers for Antelope products as direct side gig! $50 bucks to actually have it work ? Hell yeah. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 12:46:49 GMT -6
It’s antelope and aardvark having the worst product support ever and worst digital drivers ever. Sub Focusrite. Worse than Behringer admitting they have no drivers and there will never be any. Focusrite might write drivers years later. Antelope? No way in fuckin hell. m There were 2 other companies in between Arrdvark and Antelope but I can’t remember the names. If you need SMPTE a used Ardsync is a steal, if you trash the wall wart and use a nice regulated PSU, it’s a step up from most clocks, this is not by judging sonics but by using a scope. The drivers have always been an issue, if an Antelope product doesn’t ship with a working driver, you will never see it. Hell if someone was a decent coder you could probably make a few pennies writing and selling drivers for Antelope products as direct side gig! $50 bucks to actually have it work ? Hell yeah. I always thought the easiest was the big ben with Apogee's direct digital synthesis clock or just buyng a great stereo converter and using it as the master clock. You have to be a killer coder to do that. There are only a handful of developers of ASIO and Core Audio USB drivers for interfaces. Apple CoreAudio and Linux ALSA works directly with the standard class compliant XMOS controllers. ASIO needs custom drivers and I can't think of anyone other than RME, Thesyscon, and one Japanese developer who write them. Other interface manufacturers will write their own thunderbolt or pcie drivers and most of them write their own hardware DSP and native digital mixers for controlling that but those have low level hardware access so there's a lot less than can go horribly wrong than with a scheduled, polled, port. The cheap thunderbolt chipsets are gone so RME is all USB, Apogee is pivoting toward it for everything but the Symphony II, and UAD just release an Apollo Twin X USB. I should add that you need an on-interface digital mixer (including Pro Tools HDX) for very low latency operation at 44.1 or 48 khz. This is the only way to do it unless you have an analog mixer or a PCI-E card! Even 3-4 ms or so round trip latency through the DAW from typical Thunderbolt or RME USB interfaces is noticeable. The common 7-8 ms from better converters is very noticeable! Focusrite and AMS Neve just use blend knobs to get around this but that prevents you from making a separate monitor mix! Everyone knows you need to crank the overheads and room in the drummer's cans and do some basic eq on close mics to not have them sound like crap unless they are scrappy pre-eqed live sound mics like an Audix i5 or D6 with limited detail. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 31, 2023 12:55:13 GMT -6
Antelope scares me, given their history of support, lack of drivers, orphaned products, etc. I personally wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole.
If I weren't all in on Luna and Apollos, and was going to be doing something native, I'd be looking squarely at the Lynx (n) stuff.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2023 13:05:04 GMT -6
m There were 2 other companies in between Arrdvark and Antelope but I can’t remember the names. If you need SMPTE a used Ardsync is a steal, if you trash the wall wart and use a nice regulated PSU, it’s a step up from most clocks, this is not by judging sonics but by using a scope. The drivers have always been an issue, if an Antelope product doesn’t ship with a working driver, you will never see it. Hell if someone was a decent coder you could probably make a few pennies writing and selling drivers for Antelope products as direct side gig! $50 bucks to actually have it work ? Hell yeah. I always thought the easiest was the big ben with Apogee's direct digital synthesis clock or just buyng a great stereo converter and using it as the master clock. You have to be a killer coder to do that. There are only a handful of developers of ASIO and Core Audio USB drivers for interfaces. Apple CoreAudio and Linux ALSA works directly with the standard class compliant XMOS controllers. ASIO needs custom drivers and I can't think of anyone other than RME, Thesyscon, and one Japanese developer who write them. Other interface manufacturers will write their own thunderbolt or pcie drivers and most of them write their own hardware DSP and native digital mixers for controlling that but those have low level hardware access so there's a lot less than can go horribly wrong than with a scheduled, polled, port. The cheap thunderbolt chipsets are gone so RME is all USB, Apogee is pivoting toward it for everything but the Symphony II, and UAD just release an Apollo Twin X USB. I should add that you need an on-interface digital mixer (including Pro Tools HDX) for very low latency operation at 44.1 or 48 khz. This is the only way to do it unless you have an analog mixer or a PCI-E card! Even 3-4 ms or so round trip latency through the DAW from typical Thunderbolt or RME USB interfaces is noticeable. The common 7-8 ms from better converters is very noticeable! Focusrite and AMS Neve just use blend knobs to get around this but that prevents you from making a separate monitor mix! Everyone knows you need to crank the overheads and room in the drummer's cans and do some basic eq on close mics to not have them sound like crap unless they are scrappy pre-eqed live sound mics like an Audix i5 or D6 with limited detail.The Big Ben is a great clock, but I didn’t buy the Aardsynch I spent $70 for a synch box, after I found less issues using an Acopien brick I hooked it up to the scope and realized I had a much cleaner and steadier clock than the RME card or any of the 8 Panasonic/ RAMSA boxes. So I ran with it. I figure for $125 with the PSU I couldn’t find anything better. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Aug 31, 2023 13:05:30 GMT -6
Sold the Antelope worse driver and support and this was on a Mac !
Bought a Lynx n32 rock solid and incredible low latency
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Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2023 13:07:18 GMT -6
Sold the Antelope worse driver and support and this was on a Mac ! Bought a Lynx n32 rock solid and incredible low latency I know a Lynx dealer who told me the easiest way to sell a Lynx is find a guy who bought an Antelope😁 |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 31, 2023 13:08:16 GMT -6
I also have an OG Orion32. When the Mac Studio came out, I chose the RME MADIface and it's been cool. I've heard that the OG Orion is actually the one that has the least compromises (and thus reliability) and I've been happy. I was doing computer, PT and plugins, so $1K for the MADIface was much preferred to adding new converters to the upgrade.
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Post by phdamage on Aug 31, 2023 13:29:27 GMT -6
Can you elaborate on what you mean by win10 has issues with this hardware? It seems to only be able to use 24 in/out on windows 10 over usb without a MADI interface. Either that or it only works with certain motherboards |
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Post by tasteliketape on Aug 31, 2023 13:43:08 GMT -6
Well you could keep what you have and get a Mac insta 32 Chanel’s done
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Post by Ward on Aug 31, 2023 13:57:44 GMT -6
Sold the Antelope worse driver and support and this was on a Mac ! Bought a Lynx n32 rock solid and incredible low latency I know a Lynx dealer who told me the easiest way to sell a Lynx is find a guy who bought an Antelope😁 LMAO! Hilarious. |
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Post by mcirish on Aug 31, 2023 15:16:23 GMT -6
I picked up a Lynx Aurora (n) a couple months ago. Could not be happier. Great drivers with low latency and the mixer is super when tracking.
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Post by Ward on Aug 31, 2023 17:15:34 GMT -6
I picked up a Lynx Aurora (n) a couple months ago. Could not be happier. Great drivers with low latency and the mixer is super when tracking. I loved the sales team's message at the 2020 NAMM: Yeah, there are other converters. This is better than all of them. Guaranteed. No exceptions. and he laughed. And I told him that I honestly believed him. And I did. |
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Post by srb on Aug 31, 2023 18:05:51 GMT -6
And Lynx has such great service. Paul Erlandson is the man. A prince among gentlemen.
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Post by phdamage on Aug 31, 2023 19:23:08 GMT -6
Much as I’d love to grab a lynx, I’m not gonna shell out $6k ish right now.
And Mac is a non-starter for me. 3x the price for comparable specs to my one year old PC? Nah. Also I hate their proprietary everything and if I had a dollar for every thread I’ve seen on forums regarding updates and compatibility issues, I could splurge on a Burl, no problem
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2023 4:45:48 GMT -6
Much as I’d love to grab a lynx, I’m not gonna shell out $6k ish right now. And Mac is a non-starter for me. 3x the price for comparable specs to my one year old PC? Nah. Also I hate their proprietary everything and if I had a dollar for every thread I’ve seen on forums regarding updates and compatibility issues, I could splurge on a Burl, no problem Well, Burl is one way to do it.. Although as a potential solution with ultimate scalability have you ever considered MOTU? Yeah their converters are a bit long in the tooth at this stage but TBH between the Lynx, SSL & MOTU (1248 + 2 X 16 AVB) for the price differences there just wasn't enough in it. They are slightly different but not enough to irk me in anyway like a few others..
I've had the 1248 since urr 2012? It's a tank, can be run over USB or TB, with an AVB switch you can expand like nothing. I think the only issue is the convoluted routing matrix especially with AVB. Expect to tear your hair out for a week, I'm deep into tech and even I found it confusing for a while.
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Post by enlav on Sept 1, 2023 7:39:11 GMT -6
Sold the Antelope worse driver and support and this was on a Mac ! Bought a Lynx n32 rock solid and incredible low latency How's the heat generation with your unit? The prospect of adding another card to get more IO seems more tempting these days... Much as I’d love to grab a lynx, I’m not gonna shell out $6k ish right now. And Mac is a non-starter for me. [...] Not that it solves the $6k issue - but Lynx will run on PC/Windows. If you can find a MOTU product that is around $1k or a little over, that would be my route in your shoes. Depending on how much whatever Motu has in their lineup that would enable 32x32 with good RTL performance, of course.
In your shoes, I'd probably go with the RME/MADI route. If the MADI handshake works with whatever RME interface you use, you really don't need to worry about the various issues people have with the company, ultimately. No need to update, no compatibility issues (since RME's track record is great on that front), etc.
The inconvenience mostly stems through needing to go back into the Orion for rerouting or anything like that (if for whatever reason you couldn't do what you needed to in the RME card/interface). If I'm not mistaken, that means hooking it back up via USB and using their mixer to make whatever adjustments you need, and disconnecting it after if you need the USB slot for something else. If the additional cost of a MOTU interface that could get me the same performance would be close to the ballpark of whatever MADI solution I was looking at, I'd maybe just take the dive into that to eliminate the additional piece of gear in the chain and have the Orion as a backup if necessary.
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