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Post by sirthought on Aug 17, 2023 9:46:53 GMT -6
There are several ways to attack this issue of cymbal bleed in tom mics, but this engineer's approach and results impressed me. I know folks around here like to share best practices, so I'm passing along. For comparison, if you hang to about just past the 10 minute mark, you'll see him compare some other avenues people typically use, but quickly see how his approach sounds so much better. It's not a simple click-one-button tool, but also not so much labor, and the result is really nice. You could cut out everything except the tom hits, but that can sometimes lead to way more work, and if there is editing to an arrangement later, mistakes can be made with track alignment. One of the tools he's using is the Mogwai MGate multiband gate plugin. It's free right now. (FYI...I had issues downloading in Chrome, but Safari worked fine.) mogwaiaudiotools.com.au/product/mgate-multi/ |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 17, 2023 10:54:30 GMT -6
Good info on the multiband gate
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 11:32:09 GMT -6
Honestly pay a mixer to do it for you if you’re a musician. And pay him to mix your whole track to fit the toms in rather than just clean it up. Even his Toms in the video aren’t done yet and sound more artificial than gated 80s Toms.
Multiband anything can cause phase shift, weakening of the hits from the linear phase filter crossovers, or massive delay from a super long impulse response of the fir filters in those crossovers trying to negate the now audible phase shift from the linear phase crossover.
He is muting a filter on and off in a stock eq that probably has no attempt to mitigate zipper noise from unramped automaton parameters or potential pops from turning the filter on and off. Mixers will spend hundreds of dollars on plugins that can be automated cleanly from developers like Sonnox and Goodhertz. Should you buy them? Why not use the money to just pay a mixer to clean up your drums? Even if you have some naive belief that you can do everything yourself, that is work, if work were fun, you’d do it for free, and even if you enjoy it, you probably enjoy writing and playing music much more. Your grunt work is better spent maintaining your instrument, practicing, or prepping the best mic spots if you’re recording to make less work for the mixer.
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2023 12:09:21 GMT -6
I do something similar with no gates or anything in PT. Use strip silence, pull up the threshold so that it cuts out everything but the toms. Take the release and extend to the next grid mark, and put a nice curved exponential fade on the tom release. Works very well with minimal tweaking. Cuts out all the bleed. Sometimes the bleed is desired though, ,and that's where it gets trickier..... As long as you're using the OH's it's pretty smooth in the end result. Getting a drummer who knows how to balance his kit and playing helps a lot too.....  |
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Post by svart on Aug 17, 2023 12:13:29 GMT -6
I think it comes down to personal preference. I use Reaper so it's as easy as hitting D for dynamic splitting and then adjusting the threshold to cut the noise from the hits then grabbing all the leftover pieces and holding CTRL+ALT and dragging the (in or out) fades for all the sections (as well as clicking the fade line itself to change the fade style) and you're done in about 30 seconds per tom track.
I've also adopted using Saturn 2's dynamics feature for snare drum cymbal rejection. Drop Saturn 2 on the track, add a crossover point around 1K and then turn the dynamics down most of the way on the 1K+ side. You'll get enough cymbal reduction that you can add a lot of 8K back to the snare track and still not really hear the cymbals.
I assume you could simply do this same trick on the tom bus.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 12:57:17 GMT -6
Editing your toms with dynamic split or remove silence like that can often miss the initial hit or trigger too soon. You’ll have to move the edit points on the track and do your fades yourself, also any cymbal hits played with the Toms might have to be cut and uneven Tom levels that can make gates misfire will make dynamic split and strip silence misfire because Tom tracks are often a mess of cymbal wash and ghost notes.
The solution involves for the level issue: tape, tape plugs, modern dual detector compressors, or two stage compression set properly to not pump or be a special effect for all of you who don’t know how to use a compressor or only know how to abuse an 1176 or a distressor!
Manual Editing if gating doesn’t work in 30 seconds is faster.
Then you have the artificial dry sound to deal with after you’ve removed the awful cymbal wash. That involves room mics, stunt mics, dedicated tom overheads or reverb sends, gating, and bus compression. All the ignoramuses who set an ssl bus clown or plug to pump around at 30 ms attack and 100ms release will fuck this up. Chances are you fill fuck this up and make it sound like a bad 80s record or do something that doesn’t fit with the entire kit’s or recording’s ambience. Don’t fuck up your own recordings. Pay a mixer or get a producer! Blame them!
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Post by svart on Aug 17, 2023 13:04:38 GMT -6
Editing your toms with dynamic split or remove silence like that can often miss the initial hit or trigger too soon. You’ll have to move the edit points on the track and do your fades yourself, also any cymbal hits played with the Toms might have to be cut and uneven Tom levels that can make gates misfire will make dynamic split and strip silence misfire because Tom tracks are often a mess of cymbal wash and ghost notes. You can just add a few ms to the "leading pad" in Reaper if it's splitting in the hit. No need to move the edit points manually. It's more artistry than technological know-how, but once you've done it a few times, it only takes a few seconds to do. There's really no need to overthink it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 13:10:16 GMT -6
Editing your toms with dynamic split or remove silence like that can often miss the initial hit or trigger too soon. You’ll have to move the edit points on the track and do your fades yourself, also any cymbal hits played with the Toms might have to be cut and uneven Tom levels that can make gates misfire will make dynamic split and strip silence misfire because Tom tracks are often a mess of cymbal wash and ghost notes. You can just add a few ms to the "leading pad" in Reaper if it's splitting in the hit. No need to move the edit points manually. It's more artistry than technological know-how, but once you've done it a few times, it only takes a few seconds to do. There's really no need to overthink it. dynamic split or any gate, even the Oxford drum gate or some ai bullshit, won’t catch the ghost notes in the wash of bleed. That’s the issue. It’s faster to do yourself while soloing the track if keying a good gate(not what comes with your daw) to the Tom fundamental doesn’t work. |
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Post by svart on Aug 17, 2023 13:17:30 GMT -6
You can just add a few ms to the "leading pad" in Reaper if it's splitting in the hit. No need to move the edit points manually. It's more artistry than technological know-how, but once you've done it a few times, it only takes a few seconds to do. There's really no need to overthink it. dynamic split or any gate, even the Oxford drum gate or some ai bullshit, won’t catch the ghost notes in the wash of bleed. That’s the issue. It’s faster to do yourself while soloing the track if keying a good gate(not what comes with your daw) to the Tom fundamental doesn’t work. If it's so ghost-y and covered up with background bleed through the tom mics, then the ghost notes in the overheads will be enough. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2023 13:25:32 GMT -6
Editing your toms with dynamic split or remove silence like that can often miss the initial hit or trigger too soon. You’ll have to move the edit points on the track and do your fades yourself, also any cymbal hits played with the Toms might have to be cut and uneven Tom levels that can make gates misfire will make dynamic split and strip silence misfire because Tom tracks are often a mess of cymbal wash and ghost notes. You can just add a few ms to the "leading pad" in Reaper if it's splitting in the hit. No need to move the edit points manually. It's more artistry than technological know-how, but once you've done it a few times, it only takes a few seconds to do. There's really no need to overthink it. Same in PT. It's a non-issue in the real world. |
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Post by christophert on Aug 17, 2023 15:08:10 GMT -6
I do it manually. Never gating / no strip silence.
I zoom in and check every hit.
When there is no cymbal hit directly after a tom, then I can stretch out the fade.
If there's cymbals directly after, then I need shorter fades.
Some albums, the toms resonating during the tracks is great for the drum sound - so I draw volume automation so that the toms can sing.
In my experience, there are no shortcuts that don't compromise the sound of toms or the attack / release of them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 15:52:56 GMT -6
dynamic split or any gate, even the Oxford drum gate or some ai bullshit, won’t catch the ghost notes in the wash of bleed. That’s the issue. It’s faster to do yourself while soloing the track if keying a good gate(not what comes with your daw) to the Tom fundamental doesn’t work. If it's so ghost-y and covered up with background bleed through the tom mics, then the ghost notes in the overheads will be enough. Often the overheads are only recorded to be cymbal mics and the hits are blurry and muddy. If you’re lucky, there will be a separate overhead mic for the toms. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2023 16:14:05 GMT -6
My preference, and my EFFORT, is to get 80-90% of my entire kit sound from the two overheads, and kick drum mics. After that, it's just a little support from the other mics. Of course, this demands that the drums sound good, and are played well and balanced. So close mics - especially toms - are just there for support backup. My OH mics are never envisioned as "cymbal" mics.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 16:47:41 GMT -6
My preference, and my EFFORT, is to get 80-90% of my entire kit sound from the two overheads, and kick drum mics. After that, it's just a little support from the other mics. Of course, this demands that the drums sound good, and are played well and balanced. So close mics - especially toms - are just there for support backup. My OH mics are never envisioned as "cymbal" mics. A lot of the time you don’t get to choose. I prefer 2 overheads, kick, snare, at least floor Tom, and room mic(s) and will crank the overheads in the monitor mix. The track I just mixed was 1 mono overhead, snare, 1 mono overhead over the rack toms, floor tom, room, and kick was from a digital kit and a sample. common still is 2 overheads, Tom close mics, with kick and snare being samples and you have to remove the pad sound from the overheads. |
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Post by robo on Aug 17, 2023 17:35:49 GMT -6
Most of the time I just use Reaper’s stock gate plugin because it is lookahead, has sidechain filters, and parallel dry/wet outputs for expansion. I usually like a touch of the bleed rather than hard gating or editing.
If you’re on another DAW Boz makes a similar gate called Gatey Watey. Big Beautiful Door is even better for trickier or poorly recorded drums as you can eq the transient and sustain differently while also gating.
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Post by drumstar2112 on Aug 18, 2023 7:37:13 GMT -6
The Slate gate is nice …I also use the PT strip silence method.
It depends, if the bleed is ‘good bleed’ lol .
Obviously how the drummer balances the cymbals is such a huge part of the overall success of the tone..I like drummers (as I AM one) to smack the tubs hard , and hit the cymbals only as hard as you ‘have to’ (if that makes sense)
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Post by Ward on Aug 18, 2023 7:49:08 GMT -6
I do something similar with no gates or anything in PT. Use strip silence, pull up the threshold so that it cuts out everything but the toms. Take the release and extend to the next grid mark, and put a nice curved exponential fade on the tom release. Works very well with minimal tweaking. Cuts out all the bleed. Sometimes the bleed is desired though, ,and that's where it gets trickier..... As long as you're using the OH's it's pretty smooth in the end result. Getting a drummer who knows how to balance his kit and playing helps a lot too..... That's pretty much what I do as well. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 18, 2023 9:22:50 GMT -6
I do something similar with no gates or anything in PT. Use strip silence, pull up the threshold so that it cuts out everything but the toms. Take the release and extend to the next grid mark, and put a nice curved exponential fade on the tom release. Works very well with minimal tweaking. Cuts out all the bleed. Sometimes the bleed is desired though, ,and that's where it gets trickier..... As long as you're using the OH's it's pretty smooth in the end result. Getting a drummer who knows how to balance his kit and playing helps a lot too..... That's pretty much what I do as well. Similar here. I’ve also had some success using strip silence on the toms, but then balancing that against a dupe of the track that isn’t stripped. Basically creating the ability to turn just the bleed down on a separate fader. Often not necessary, but kind of cool. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Aug 18, 2023 9:31:07 GMT -6
I’ve just started demoing this software and my initial impression very impressed Was sent a mix where the guitar bleed was killing the vocal track . This fixed it with no artifacts to the vocal . hitnmix.com/remix-software/On sale for 79$ |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 21, 2023 9:29:06 GMT -6
My preference, and my EFFORT, is to get 80-90% of my entire kit sound from the two overheads, and kick drum mics. After that, it's just a little support from the other mics. Of course, this demands that the drums sound good, and are played well and balanced. So close mics - especially toms - are just there for support backup. My OH mics are never envisioned as "cymbal" mics. A lot of the time you don’t get to choose. I prefer 2 overheads, kick, snare, at least floor Tom, and room mic(s) and will crank the overheads in the monitor mix. The track I just mixed was 1 mono overhead, snare, 1 mono overhead over the rack toms, floor tom, room, and kick was from a digital kit and a sample. common still is 2 overheads, Tom close mics, with kick and snare being samples and you have to remove the pad sound from the overheads. Man… that is really unfortunate and I feel for the guys that have to deal with xxxxed recordings and crap like this. Not something I’d be willing to put up with honestly. |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 21, 2023 9:55:32 GMT -6
A lot of the time you don’t get to choose. I prefer 2 overheads, kick, snare, at least floor Tom, and room mic(s) and will crank the overheads in the monitor mix. The track I just mixed was 1 mono overhead, snare, 1 mono overhead over the rack toms, floor tom, room, and kick was from a digital kit and a sample. common still is 2 overheads, Tom close mics, with kick and snare being samples and you have to remove the pad sound from the overheads. Man… that is really unfortunate and I feel for the guys that have to deal with xxxxed recordings and crap like this. Not something I’d be willing to put up with honestly. the paycheck helps 🤷🏻♀️ |
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2023 10:13:36 GMT -6
There's an easier solution to all this:
The 308s
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 21, 2023 10:17:35 GMT -6
Best solution I've found is manually cutting between hits, leaving an ample long tail, then applying (in PT, via AudioSuite) a LPF just after the transient. Put some fades on all that, and bob's yer uncle.
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Post by dvdpaulin on Aug 21, 2023 11:09:59 GMT -6
Best solution I've found is manually cutting between hits, leaving an ample long tail, then applying (in PT, via AudioSuite) a LPF just after the transient. Put some fades on all that, and bob's yer uncle. This is my process too. Audiosuite with the stock PT focusrite eq with a LPF at 700. Lets you keep the Tom sustain through the cymbal hit while getting rid of the cymbal! It’s a fair amount of work, but definitely worth it. And for those of you on here that use SoundFlow with a Streamdeck, you can make a button on there that will do all of this to a selection on the Tom tracks! Speeds it up significantly |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 12:52:19 GMT -6
Best solution I've found is manually cutting between hits, leaving an ample long tail, then applying (in PT, via AudioSuite) a LPF just after the transient. Put some fades on all that, and bob's yer uncle. Agreed. Or I I have to cut the tail too far, I add a reverb send to cover it up. |
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