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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 9:29:43 GMT -6
Looking for others experience and advice.
So I've started mixing a bit after being a musician for years around 2007 or 2008. That was just for myself. I experimented and tried to learn as much as I could on my own. I got my first actual gig with a client(remote) in 2013. I got more clients slowly from there. I have 3-4 that return for work with me at this point. I've noticed that each client has their own idea of what mixing is. Or tracking for that matter. Unfortunately what sometimes happens is I will listen to a rough, read initial notes on said rough and deliver mix-001. With some clients, this typically devolves into many revisions for which the notes simply read something like "up 1db on the snare. Down .5db on the left guitar. Up 1.5db on BGV vocal verb on bridge. Pan guitars 80/80 during final chorus". While I appreciate the tendency for these people to lean on level balancing for the majority of the tweaks, I have to wonder if it's because it's the only thing they understand about mixing. It also makes me wonder what they even need me for. They could obviously do these simple changes themselves.
It seems they have little concept of using EQ, panning, verb and compression in order to create actual depth and a bigger picture. The clients I have that actually know less technically tend to be the best to work with. They speak more in terms of sound and desires for the end result. Then I can use my knowledge and experience to get there.
Is this typical just because of the current generation where every client now has a DAW and just enough knowledge to get themselves into trouble? I'm at a crossroads with recent health and financial issues that are making me take a hard look at what to do with my time. Is this just the clients you get at a certain level or is this most people now across the board? I may want to stop trying to onboard clients and find other work.
Curious.
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Post by spindrift on Aug 5, 2023 9:38:37 GMT -6
Charge by the hour.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 9:46:19 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little". And as you probably know, a simple fader move (esp one that follows their exact, literal request) is rarely the right move. Your job as mixer is to read what they say, but interpret what they MEAN. For example, some alternate interpretation ideas -
"Down .5db on the left guitar." - The mix feels left-heavy. Could be a tonal thing, eg - the left guitar is brighter or has more pronounced transient attack, so eq or compression are possible solutions. Or maybe the guitar on the left is a bit ahead of the beat, which often makes it sound louder. Maybe a 10ms nudge would fix it.
"Up 1.5db on BGV vocal verb on bridge." - The bridge needs to feel bigger and more expansive, especially in the vocals. Leave the fader where it is, because boosting BGVs will crowd the arrangement. Instead, a couple db of 10k shelf might open the BGVs up nicely, or maybe use the dolby NR trick. Alternatively, a bit of a boost on the BGVs' reverb might do the trick, and won't obscure the lead vocal as much. Or, maybe the idea here was less "lead vocals + BGVs" and more of a "vocal ensemble" thing, which would mean turning the lead vocal DOWN by that 1.5db.
"Pan guitars 80/80 during final chorus" - the mix feels unglued there. Find a way to fill out the low mids so the guitars don't feel so separated.
ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them.
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 9:46:21 GMT -6
and enough to deter the troublesome clients, I assume. Your local garage charges $150 an hour for labor so, why shouldn't we charge similarly? |
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Post by robo on Aug 5, 2023 9:57:09 GMT -6
The clients that ask for minor changes, with specific db up/down requests and the like, sound like they really like your mixing. That’s the easy stuff that doesn’t affect the feel, tone, and depth that you’ve established in your mix. I think they do understand what mixing is about.
Clients that have more vague/poetic suggestions clearly aren’t feeling what they are hearing, or else they would have the typical up/down more/less type comments.
The trick for you (and me and everyone else doing this work) is to remind yourself that regardless of what type of feedback you get, they are always right. It’s their music. Sometimes that means you end up not liking it as much, but you don’t have to live with it in the same way.
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 10:00:13 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little". And as you probably know, a simple fader move (esp one that follows their exact, literal request) is rarely the right move. Your job as mixer is to read what they say, but interpret what they MEAN. For example, some alternate interpretation ideas - "Down .5db on the left guitar." - The mix feels left-heavy. Could be a tonal thing, eg - the left guitar is brighter or has more pronounced transient attack, so eq or compression are possible solutions. Or maybe the guitar on the left is a bit ahead of the beat, which often makes it sound louder. Maybe a 10ms nudge would fix it. "Up 1.5db on BGV vocal verb on bridge." - The bridge needs to feel bigger and more expansive, especially in the vocals. Leave the fader where it is, because boosting BGVs will crowd the arrangement. Instead, a couple db of 10k shelf might open the BGVs up nicely, or maybe use the dolby NR trick. Alternatively, a bit of a boost on the BGVs' reverb might do the trick, and won't obscure the lead vocal as much. Or, maybe the idea here was less "lead vocals + BGVs" and more of a "vocal ensemble" thing, which would mean turning the lead vocal DOWN by that 1.5db. "Pan guitars 80/80 during final chorus" - the mix feels unglued there. Find a way to fill out the low mids so the guitars don't feel so separated. ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Aha. So in other words interpretation and translation. That is probably what I need to work on for these types of clients. It can be difficult when they are present or watching your PT screen via a live session. Then you have to explain why you are doing a bunch of other stuff they didn't ask you to do. Thanks for that. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 10:04:47 GMT -6
The clients that ask for minor changes, with specific db up/down requests and the like, sound like they really like your mixing. That’s the easy stuff that doesn’t affect the feel, tone, and depth that you’ve established in your mix. I think they do understand what mixing is about. Clients that have more vague/poetic suggestions clearly aren’t feeling what they are hearing, or else they would have the typical up/down more/less type comments. The trick for you (and me and everyone else doing this work) is to remind yourself that regardless of what type of feedback you get, they are always right. It’s their music. Sometimes that means you end up not liking it as much, but you don’t have to live with it in the same way. Yup. That last bit isn't an issue for me as I spend a lot of time in uncharted unknown territory with others music. I'm open enough that I can be just fine with a mix done in many different ways, and I think that's one of my positive traits when it comes to mixing. Interesting comment about them liking the mix style but just needing small tweaks. That's why I think it's so important to try and deliver a finished 001. I have at times run into those situations where it's so completely off from what they want you start over. Typically though, that's when overdubs have gone off the rails without clear producing goals and I just have no idea how to interpret the 20th guitar track's purpose(and they aren't clear on it, either) Good food for thought. Thanks. |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 10:06:18 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little". And as you probably know, a simple fader move (esp one that follows their exact, literal request) is rarely the right move. Your job as mixer is to read what they say, but interpret what they MEAN. For example, some alternate interpretation ideas - "Down .5db on the left guitar." - The mix feels left-heavy. Could be a tonal thing, eg - the left guitar is brighter or has more pronounced transient attack, so eq or compression are possible solutions. Or maybe the guitar on the left is a bit ahead of the beat, which often makes it sound louder. Maybe a 10ms nudge would fix it. "Up 1.5db on BGV vocal verb on bridge." - The bridge needs to feel bigger and more expansive, especially in the vocals. Leave the fader where it is, because boosting BGVs will crowd the arrangement. Instead, a couple db of 10k shelf might open the BGVs up nicely, or maybe use the dolby NR trick. Alternatively, a bit of a boost on the BGVs' reverb might do the trick, and won't obscure the lead vocal as much. Or, maybe the idea here was less "lead vocals + BGVs" and more of a "vocal ensemble" thing, which would mean turning the lead vocal DOWN by that 1.5db. "Pan guitars 80/80 during final chorus" - the mix feels unglued there. Find a way to fill out the low mids so the guitars don't feel so separated. ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Aha. So in other words interpretation and translation. That is probably what I need to work on for these types of clients. It can be difficult when they are present or watching your PT screen via a live session. Then you have to explain why you are doing a bunch of other stuff they didn't ask you to do. Thanks for that. Usually with attended (or streaming) sessions, you'll only have to explain the concept once. In other words, if they say "turn up the BGVs 1.5db", and you think you're better served turning up that high shelf, you just do it, explain why, and hopefully your instincts were good and the result is great. That'll be all the client needs to hear, and from that point on, you just interpret their requests as you see fit. Do bear in mind though, that sometimes their request (eg - turn up "x" element by "x amount" using "x specific approach") actually IS the best approach. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 10:07:06 GMT -6
This is why you use the ssl approach and have cleanish dynamics on everything you are doing fader wise! The automation will control you! Everything will be more even. Your fader moves will be controlled by the bus compressors and you can mix with emotion rather than self control and worry! Usually it’s little nit picks at their own performance for me and they want a certain note or phrase or line boosted.
1.5 db won’t be 1.5 db then and everything will be more controlled and let you mix with emotion.
real SSL bus comps or smart on auto (digital, use current ssl native on 4x or the glue only or something else. Hate ssl style? Try daking or Drawmers), multi detector compressors like Oxford dynamics or Kotelnikov or mdwdrc2, tons of distortion like tube and desk plugs, and tape plugs if it’s not from tape already are your friend! If you really want to be brutal for low budget or annoying clients, just use something like the Oxford or Faraday Limiters or Ursa Boost as a two bus compressor.
You can use techniques like have the vocal bus comp after your vocal bus fader so send your vocal bus to a vocal comp bus! I often use stuff like the Omnipressor or Powair there but the MDWDRC2 probably is glorious there. I need to try that.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 10:09:50 GMT -6
and enough to deter the troublesome clients, I assume. Your local garage charges $150 an hour for labor so, why shouldn't we charge similarly? This can be a double edged sword, because as you get better at mixing, you'll be able to bang out some tunes in a few hours. If you play your rates right, as your mixing improves you can usually come out way, way ahead by charging per-song. Using the mechanic analogy, this would be like if they could charge the same amount for a tire rotation as they do for replacing the transmission. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 10:13:20 GMT -6
and enough to deter the troublesome clients, I assume. Your local garage charges $150 an hour for labor so, why shouldn't we charge similarly? This can be a double edged sword, because as you get better at mixing, you'll be able to bang out some tunes in a few hours. If you play your rates right, as your mixing improves you can usually come out way, way ahead by charging per-song. Using the mechanic analogy, this would be like if they could charge the same amount for a tire rotation as they do for replacing the transmission. As long as no one is present or taking up my minutes, I can see that being the case. So it could be a per-mix rate but with extra charges past 3 revisions and hourly for any time spent mixing with clients present(virtually or otherwise) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 10:14:10 GMT -6
and enough to deter the troublesome clients, I assume. Your local garage charges $150 an hour for labor so, why shouldn't we charge similarly? This can be a double edged sword, because as you get better at mixing, you'll be able to bang out some tunes in a few hours. If you play your rates right, as your mixing improves you can usually come out way, way ahead by charging per-song. Yes and you can take low budget clients too! Even if their budget sucks, if you can mix their record in a couple hours, just do it. Money earned is money earned and they’ll be back. E.g., I know how to exploit certain non-linear stages and noise reduction processing to knock out certain kinds of rawer, lower fidelity but you can’t necessarily call it poorly recorded rap, metal, and punk. If I didn’t take it, somebody else would, wouldn’t do as good of a job giving them what they want, and would take income away from me. |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -6
This can be a double edged sword, because as you get better at mixing, you'll be able to bang out some tunes in a few hours. If you play your rates right, as your mixing improves you can usually come out way, way ahead by charging per-song. Using the mechanic analogy, this would be like if they could charge the same amount for a tire rotation as they do for replacing the transmission. As long as no one is present or taking up my minutes, I can see that being the case. So it could be a per-mix rate but with extra charges past 3 revisions and hourly for any time spent mixing with clients present(virtually or otherwise) I would disallow clients from attending the mix until the final stages. There's no reason for them to be sitting there while you audition basic balances and like hi hat eqs. Let them hear a finished version, assess it as such, and then invite them to sit in while you make modifications. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 10:37:53 GMT -6
This is why you use the ssl approach and have cleanish dynamics on everything you are doing fader wise! The automation will control you! Everything will be more even. Your fader moves will be controlled by the bus compressors and you can mix with emotion rather than self control and worry! Usually it’s little nit picks at their own performance for me and they want a certain note or phrase or line boosted. 1.5 db won’t be 1.5 db then and everything will be more controlled and let you mix with emotion. real SSL bus comps or smart on auto (digital, use current ssl native on 4x or the glue only or something else. Hate ssl style? Try daking or Drawmers), multi detector compressors like Oxford dynamics or Kotelnikov or mdwdrc2, tons of distortion like tube and desk plugs, and tape plugs if it’s not from tape already are your friend! If you really want to be brutal for low budget or annoying clients, just use something like the Oxford or Faraday Limiters or Ursa Boost as a two bus compressor. You can use techniques like have the vocal bus comp after your vocal bus fader so send your vocal bus to a vocal comp bus! I often use stuff like the Omnipressor or Powair there but the MDWDRC2 probably is glorious there. I need to try that. That is interesting to me. I will experiment with the method you describe here. I have the SSL Bus comp 2 and Glue and an Audioscape that I enjoy. I also have had really great results with the Lindell SBC, actually. Will have to experiment more. Thanks, Dan. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 10:38:51 GMT -6
As long as no one is present or taking up my minutes, I can see that being the case. So it could be a per-mix rate but with extra charges past 3 revisions and hourly for any time spent mixing with clients present(virtually or otherwise) I would disallow clients from attending the mix until the final stages. There's no reason for them to be sitting there while you audition basic balances and like hi hat eqs. Let them hear a finished version, assess it as such, and then invite them to sit in while you make modifications. This makes me weight the rough and a finished mix 001 even more, then. I got to the point of throwing my hands up because I would pour everything into an 001 being finished only to have to back track a bunch with their first notes. So I started mixing for about 85% on the first mix and walking it in the rest of the way with them. |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 10:42:56 GMT -6
I would disallow clients from attending the mix until the final stages. There's no reason for them to be sitting there while you audition basic balances and like hi hat eqs. Let them hear a finished version, assess it as such, and then invite them to sit in while you make modifications. This makes me weight the rough and a finished mix 001 even more, then. I got to the point of throwing my hands up because I would pour everything into an 001 being finished only to have to back track a bunch with their first notes. So I started mixing for about 85% on the first mix and walking it in the rest of the way with them. Yep, I definitely do that sometimes when I've got clients who I know/expect will be particularly tricky. But it's a razor-thin line to walk, because if you really 'wow' them with a KILLER first mix that's 100% solid, they'll probably hit you with fewer notes. So sometimes that 85% thing can really bite you in the ass. |
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Post by deaconblues on Aug 5, 2023 11:01:56 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little".…. — ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Similar thing in the visual arts world, just exchange Photoshop or iMovie for DAWs. There’s a great quote I saw the other day by Bill Hader about this (in his case, writing): ”"when people tell you something is wrong, they're usually right. when they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong." The key is not trying to explain to your client why their suggestion is bad and instead as others have suggested: give them what they want not what they ask for. Client relations are mostly translations. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 5, 2023 11:02:49 GMT -6
It’s a service industry. And comes with all the attendant headaches.
I will say, bands often notice things I don’t. I get busy making the drums slap and they notice there’s a harmony missing on the second verse. Or whatever.
The numerical thing I would just use as guidance, same with panning. People will give me numbers and I’ll just do what I think they want to hear.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 11:06:22 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little".…. — ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Similar thing in the visual arts world, just exchange Photoshop or iMovie for DAWs. There’s a great quote I saw the other day by Bill Hader about this (in his case, writing): ”"when people tell you something is wrong, they're usually right. when they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong."The key is not trying to explain to your client why their suggestion is bad and instead as others have suggested: give them what they want not what they ask for. Client relations are mostly translations. great quote. stealing that like heck. |
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Post by christopher on Aug 5, 2023 11:55:15 GMT -6
Went to the river today. Loading the trunk and my wife has an VERY strong opinion on whether I’m loading it the right way. Turn this bag. Put this one in first. Nevermind that I’ve got 10,000+ hours loading trucks, vans, cars, the customer is always right
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 5, 2023 12:08:22 GMT -6
Went to the river today. Loading the trunk and my wife has an VERY strong opinion on whether I’m loading it the right way. Turn this bag. Put this one in first. Nevermind that I’ve got 10,000+ hours loading trucks, vans, cars, the customer is always right Happy wife happy life! It’s all about figuring out what they are actually asking for. That means knowing who you’re dealing with. I have a very close friend that is a client that’s been making records as long as I have. When he says 1dB on a vocal ride, he knows exactly what he’s talking about and I give it to him and he’s pretty much always right. Now, is anybody else going to hear that tiny ride? Probably not, but my job is to make him happy. I have another client that is super new to the process, and they will say, hey can you pop that vocal in the chorus up .5dB? I say sure and then do what I think they actually want. And it usually works out. Our job is to give the client what they want while at the same time also making sure we give them a good mix. There shouldn’t be a compromise in either direction. I heard a podcast with Mayer saying how he had something like 24 mix revisions on a song from his last record. Spike mixed it, so you know revision 10 was absolutely amazing, but John heard it differently, and they eventually got there together. Mixing is absolutely a team effort and I’d be lying if I said I don’t get frustrated from time to time, but after taking a breather and getting back into it, the revisions pretty much always wind up being better than what I had originally sent. |
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Post by spindrift on Aug 5, 2023 12:14:59 GMT -6
Went to the river today. Loading the trunk and my wife has an VERY strong opinion on whether I’m loading it the right way. Turn this bag. Put this one in first. Nevermind that I’ve got 10,000+ hours loading trucks, vans, cars, the customer is always right Not gonna lie, my wife, a Tetris freakazoid LOVES to pack cars, storage units etc. She's just better at it. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 5, 2023 12:16:04 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little". And as you probably know, a simple fader move (esp one that follows their exact, literal request) is rarely the right move. Your job as mixer is to read what they say, but interpret what they MEAN. This ^^^^^^^ was exactly what I was going to say. Interpretation is key. Blindly following "specific" directions will usually not get you there. However, there is the occasional musician who actually has that knowledge, but as you mentioned, they are more often than not mixing it themselves. Interpreting "direction" by musicians has always been key to getting mixes past the powers that be. But it has changed from abstract : "make the mix more red in the chorus", to technical "up 1 dB and HPF the vocal". Learn to interpret and knock their socks off! Good luck. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 5, 2023 12:39:49 GMT -6
Went to the river today. Loading the trunk and my wife has an VERY strong opinion on whether I’m loading it the right way. Turn this bag. Put this one in first. Nevermind that I’ve got 10,000+ hours loading trucks, vans, cars, the customer is always right Not gonna lie, my wife, a Tetris freakazoid LOVES to pack cars, storage units etc. She's just better at it. Snap, my wife loves to pack cars, suitcases, store rooms, food cupboards and is superb at it. A Master of time and space. Is there some sort of Darwinian process at work here! |
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Post by christopher on Aug 5, 2023 12:46:45 GMT -6
I’ve been on a bit of a kick lately how Lars didn’t want bass to mess up his drum tone on ‘justice’. Watching interviews they say that record was when they blew up. It’s hard to imagine them being more successful than they are had they had bass. I feel for the mix engineer, he did his job and helped to make them a huge mega success. In Interviews he has to carry of the burden of their decision
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