kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 17, 2023 17:32:44 GMT -6
Interesting analysis:
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Post by seawell on Feb 17, 2023 18:51:22 GMT -6
He makes a good point about different musicians perceiving latency differently. In general, the better the musician, the more sensitive they are to it in my experience. Pro Tools HDX is still worth it to me, particular when tracking bands with a full drum kit. You just don’t ever have to worry about latency. I track at 96kHz and the latency is 0.7ms. |
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Post by svart on Feb 17, 2023 20:19:40 GMT -6
I get about 4ms with my computer and interfaces. Not a single person has complained.
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Post by seawell on Feb 17, 2023 22:24:53 GMT -6
I get about 4ms with my computer and interfaces. Not a single person has complained. Are you tracking a full drum kit / full band? If so, that’s impressive 👍🏻 |
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Post by svart on Feb 17, 2023 22:56:26 GMT -6
I get about 4ms with my computer and interfaces. Not a single person has complained. Are you tracking a full drum kit / full band? If so, that’s impressive 👍🏻 Yeah usually 10-12 channels of drums, also a bass and guitar, all monitoring through a bunch of plugs too. |
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Post by seawell on Feb 17, 2023 23:12:37 GMT -6
Are you tracking a full drum kit / full band? If so, that’s impressive 👍🏻 Yeah usually 10-12 channels of drums, also a bass and guitar, all monitoring through a bunch of plugs too. Nice! |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 17, 2023 23:27:35 GMT -6
I do band tracking dates using the console sends. Latency isn't a thing.
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Post by copperx on Feb 18, 2023 2:22:52 GMT -6
Is there any other solution to get sub 1 ms latency without PT HDX?
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 18, 2023 4:41:42 GMT -6
Sorry, who needs sub1 ms ?
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 18, 2023 4:45:29 GMT -6
Sorry, who needs sub1 ms ? Can you even blink that fast? ETA: Nope around 100 ms. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 18, 2023 4:50:52 GMT -6
Sound travels 1 foot in 1 ms, how does any band play live?
I thought we need 15-20 ms for our brains to even perceive a time difference?
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 18, 2023 6:43:52 GMT -6
How do I measure the latency of my rig?
And related, when overdubbing, is it possible that my overdubs record slightly out of time (behind) from what I played? I use PT’s and an Aurora (n) and usually monitor off the Aurora, especially if I have a lot of processing going on and have increased my buffer.
Sometimes I feel like my overdubs end up just slightly behind. It’s frustrating when I think I nailed it, and listen back and it’s off. I usually just chalk it up to my sh*t playing, but curious to know if it actually might be a technical issue?
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Post by drumrec on Feb 18, 2023 6:54:56 GMT -6
Was curious and had to check out the Apollo x spec on latency. sub-2ms latency.
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Post by sean on Feb 18, 2023 7:54:08 GMT -6
Running 128ms buffer on Pro Tools some people notice...and 64ms I just don't trust Pro Tools...so I think I'm going to try and track down a decent deal on a HDX card and just pull the trigger. Tired of stressing about it.
But, yes, doing headphones off sends of a console before it hits your recorder is definitely ideal and once you get the opportunity to record as a musician that way, you notice the difference.
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Post by subspace on Feb 18, 2023 8:42:03 GMT -6
I worked around latency monitoring from an analog desk or DSP mixer for a couple decades, worked great for initial tracking, ok for overdubbing additional parts, and basically not at all for monitoring tight punch-ins. Any solution that can auto-switch it's monitor source based on record status, like an SSL Matrix for example, can overcome that shortcoming. I needed a portable solution with instant punch-monitoring for vocalists while working from a score with a music director for the bulk of my paid work, so Pro Tools Carbon ended my direct monitoring work-around days.
If I was recording myself I'd be perfectly happy to keep direct monitoring and edit additional takes to exactly what I needed, but punch assembling on the fly, they expect to hear the fix live as it's going down and not stop for an edit after each take.
At 96k, it's under a ms which I can't differentiate from an analog split on a live mic. My live digital desk is around 3.4ms and I only tried it once for direct monitoring, then immediately went back to analog. Most players generally will anticipate the beat on the pre-recorded track and hit the strings/drums right on the downbeat regardless of what is being fed to their phones, but music directors/producers judge their timing strictly on the monitor feed.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Feb 18, 2023 9:29:45 GMT -6
RME PCIe cards deliver if you don’t want to use Pro Tools cards.
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Post by copperx on Feb 18, 2023 9:59:18 GMT -6
Sorry, who needs sub1 ms ? It's not that I NEED sub 1 ms latency, but with those numbers you can forget about latency worries while recording once and for all, and not screw around with buffer settings and all that jazz. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 18, 2023 10:03:14 GMT -6
K, but rme, apollo, etc, are pretty well there ?
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Post by notneeson on Feb 18, 2023 10:35:53 GMT -6
K, but rme, apollo, etc, are pretty well there ? I don’t know anyone who thinks the low latency monitoring on Apollo isn’t good enough. |
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Post by seawell on Feb 18, 2023 10:51:36 GMT -6
Is there any other solution to get sub 1 ms latency without PT HDX? Carbon is the only standalone interface that will get you there that I know of. It basically has a HDX card built in. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 18, 2023 11:07:15 GMT -6
Is there any other solution to get sub 1 ms latency without PT HDX? I can get that with the Direct Monitoring button, off my Interface.  Chris |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 18, 2023 11:48:06 GMT -6
Groove and feel are a large part of why I fell in love with playing instruments especially drums.
So I avoid latency at all cost through the following two methods.
1. For recording with mics I monitor with analog (speed of light) monitoring using a separate analog mixer, never though software.
I record real guitar with amps and cabs, bass with analog monitored DI and acoustic guitar with mics.
2. For VI's I monitor the output of my V-Drums and post trigger SD3 via MIDI and the same for piano and organ parts
I monitor my Nord Electro HP and post trigger VI's.
That just leaves a few VI's synths and special effect type sounds (ear candy stuff) but as long as they have no specific attack that's critical I'm OK if it is a critical
part then I'll edit afterwards or even programme it to sound the way I'd like it to groove.
For me this makes a big difference as I'm so incredibly sensitive to latency - one day I'm sure they'll get it down to the sub 0.1ms range but until then
I'm willing to jump though an extra few loops to preserve the groove - funny in the early 80's going to tape with real instruments real time monitoring was all we had!
I know the argument for the 1ms = 1 foot in a band setting but there's many other factors at play there that don't apply to isolated studio tracking IME.
And anyway, this is all very subjective, I've tried monitoring through software with VI's etc and personally for me it feels like playing through custard :-)
If other people can make it work and have no issue, of course I completely respect that.
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Post by Quint on Feb 18, 2023 12:03:53 GMT -6
Is there any other solution to get sub 1 ms latency without PT HDX? Carbon is the only standalone interface that will get you there that I know of. It basically has a HDX card built in. Apollo and Luna are now basically the same as Carbon and Protools with the hybrid engine. So I wouldn't say that Carbon is the only one. Though, to be fair, there are a lot of interfaces that can do monitoring latency, with their own built in digital mixer, at the same level of low level latency as Carbon or Apollo. It's just that Carbon (with Protools), and now the Apollo (with Luna) offer an environment where the built in digital mixer is tightly integrated with the DAW, to the point that they seamlessly work in concert with one another. The auto DSP shuffling, between native and DSP, that Carbon/PT and Apollo/Luna offers is very nice. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 18, 2023 12:08:19 GMT -6
Groove and feel are a large part of why I fell in love with playing instruments especially drums. So I avoid latency at all cost through the following two methods. 1. For recording with mics I monitor with analog (speed of light) monitoring using a separate analog mixer, never though software. I record real guitar with amps and cabs, bass with analog monitored DI and acoustic guitar with mics. 2.For VI's I monitor the output of my V-Drums and post trigger SD3 via MIDI and the same for piano and organ parts I monitor my Nord Electro HP and post trigger VI's. That just leaves a few VI's synths and special effect type sounds (ear candy stuff) but as long as they have no specific attack that's critical I'm OK if it is a critical part then I'll edit afterwards or even programme it to sound the way I'd like it to groove. For me this makes a big difference as I'm so incredibly sensitive to latency - one day I'm sure they'll get it down to the sub 0.1ms range but until then I'm willing to jump though an extra few loops to preserve the groove - funny in the early 80's going to tape with real instruments real time monitoring was all we had! I know the argument for the 1ms = 1 foot in a band setting but there's many other factors at play there that don't apply to isolated studio tracking IME. And anyway, this is all very subjective, I've tried monitoring through software with VI's etc and personally for me it feels like playing through custard :-) If other people can make it work and have no issue, of course I completely respect that. I've mostly gone the same direction myself. I've got a Neo Ventilator (wish I had a real Leslie though) for my Leslie sounds, sound modules for keys sounds (pre going in the computer), I'm gonna get the Reface CP for electric keyboard sounds (wish I had a real Rhodes/Wurli), and I have standalone amp sims like the Iridium for amp sounds. Of course, I'd ideally rather record the real amps I have or real piano or real Hammond organ that I have, but I do have the capability to monitor any of the digital sources I have without mostly having to rely on a VI in the computer of any kind. But I do also record midi and DIs so that I could use a VI or sim after the fact, if I wanted to. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 18, 2023 12:10:05 GMT -6
Groove and feel are a large part of why I fell in love with playing instruments especially drums. So I avoid latency at all cost through the following two methods. 1. For recording with mics I monitor with analog (speed of light) monitoring using a separate analog mixer, never though software. I record real guitar with amps and cabs, bass with analog monitored DI and acoustic guitar with mics. 2.For VI's I monitor the output of my V-Drums and post trigger SD3 via MIDI and the same for piano and organ parts I monitor my Nord Electro HP and post trigger VI's. That just leaves a few VI's synths and special effect type sounds (ear candy stuff) but as long as they have no specific attack that's critical I'm OK if it is a critical part then I'll edit afterwards or even programme it to sound the way I'd like it to groove. For me this makes a big difference as I'm so incredibly sensitive to latency - one day I'm sure they'll get it down to the sub 0.1ms range but until then I'm willing to jump though an extra few loops to preserve the groove - funny in the early 80's going to tape with real instruments real time monitoring was all we had! I know the argument for the 1ms = 1 foot in a band setting but there's many other factors at play there that don't apply to isolated studio tracking IME. And anyway, this is all very subjective, I've tried monitoring through software with VI's etc and personally for me it feels like playing through custard :-) If other people can make it work and have no issue, of course I completely respect that. I myself am extremely sensitive to latency and I find that it varies with performers. But even if they don’t notice it, I’m convinced that the little micro delays impact performance, especially of singers. I always monitor analog for vocal overdubs. A point not yet said is the impact of latency when you’re in a one-room studio on headphones. The bleed through the cans really screws up the accuracy of your sound if you have even slight latency. If I had the luxury of a proper control room it would be different, but when you’re trying to set up a microphone and relying on your headphone signal? Most of you know what I’m talking about but if you don’t, just try it. The difference in timbre between a 1ms and 5ms delay on a mic is quite significant. |
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