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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 15:08:53 GMT -6
Before I buy a pair of Jensen JT-MB-D transformers, grab a box, connectors, and break out the iron, anyone already sell an M-S transformer decoder box already built? I’m surprised Jensen/Radial doesn’t.
Is someone going to say just use an IC one? Which for about the same price (or not)? I want microphone-level.
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Post by nudwig on Oct 6, 2022 15:12:42 GMT -6
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 15:39:22 GMT -6
Thanks. Apparently discontinued? Also, while I very-well may be wrong, it seems you have to use the preamps in it and it outputs line-level. I’d much rather prefer mic-level in and mic-level out to use external preamps.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 6, 2022 15:50:00 GMT -6
What are you doing exactly? Can you do it in software after?
Goodhertz has a free MS encoder/decoder plugin that works excellent.
That's what I use when i record MS. But my recorder(sound devices Mixpre) has built in decoding for monitoring.
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 16:11:48 GMT -6
Nothing special. Just a typical m/s mic setup in the studio that I’d normally decode with a console or plugin, but there’s been many occasions I want it exactly the way I had it while tracking and someone else was messing with it after the fact on their own setup. Track it and never think about it again.
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Post by nudwig on Oct 6, 2022 18:44:36 GMT -6
Thanks. Apparently discontinued? Also, while I very-well may be wrong, it seems you have to use the preamps in it and it outputs line-level. I’d much rather prefer mic-level in and mic-level out to use external preamps. Ah, that's a bummer. From what I can tell it takes line as well, would be a handy box. Maybe worth writing Radial to see if they have any lying around. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 6, 2022 19:47:05 GMT -6
This should be one of the simplest DIY projects. I would do a search on Group DIY and find somebody who can do the work. Oh Ward, when Audioscape comes back this would be an easy project.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 6, 2022 20:02:45 GMT -6
Nothing special. Just a typical m/s mic setup in the studio that I’d normally decode with a console or plugin, but there’s been many occasions I want it exactly the way I had it while tracking and someone else was messing with it after the fact on their own setup. Track it and never think about it again. Well was the person that was messing with it the mic engineer? Or what? Why where they? Anyways if you have a 500 chassis Totoal audio control makes a MS unit. |
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 21:59:04 GMT -6
No. I’m just saying that I want the person down the line to hear it the way it was tracked in the studio, no matter what their setup or experience.
It looks like that 500 Series one is line-level.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 6, 2022 22:15:32 GMT -6
I use a transformer box line level after the preamp. I don’t see a good reason to do it at mic level, you’ll lose some S/N that way. The vintage Neumann MS transformers with their odd ratio are the only ones that get level blending right. I’ve never seen any for sale.
There are some vintage preamps with transformers that could be purpose re-wired for MS blending on the way in. Nothing remotely modern.
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 22:16:41 GMT -6
This should be one of the simplest DIY projects. I would do a search on Group DIY and find somebody who can do the work. Oh Ward, when Audioscape comes back this would be an easy project. Yes, perfect for a simple DIY project. So simple, I’m really surprised Jensen/Radial doesn’t already have a finished product, like in their ISO-MAX Series. I figured that if there wasn’t a product already, I’d do it myself, but honestly, don’t want to. I may just have it done. |
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 22:36:49 GMT -6
I use a transformer box line level after the preamp. I don’t see a good reason to do it at mic level, you’ll lose some S/N that way. The vintage Neumann MS transformers with their odd ratio are the only ones that get level blending right. I’ve never seen any for sale. There are some vintage preamps with transformers that could be purpose re-wired for MS blending on the way in. Nothing remotely modern. I suppose line-level with the JT-11SSP-6M would get me to the same place. I’m curious what, if any, the true sound differences would be. I’ve read IC is actually the way to go sound-wise, but I really have no idea. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 6, 2022 22:46:46 GMT -6
No. I’m just saying that I want the person down the line to hear it the way it was tracked in the studio, no matter what their setup or experience. It looks like that 500 Series one is line-level. ah. Well in that case, I'd use a plugin and print it. Then they can have both. I mean one of the best things about M/S is you can shape it to what you need it. So if you're tracking that and someone else is mixing it, then it's their decision how it sounds anyways. And obviously the artists. but yeah. |
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 6, 2022 22:53:50 GMT -6
Maybe that’s the best solution. Still, sometimes, commitment is better and that’s the utopia I’d like to be. That’ll be the day, if I ever get there!
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Post by EmRR on Oct 7, 2022 7:41:01 GMT -6
The various THAT based encoder decoders are good, still, printing it in the DAW is so easy if you don't already have something. I have a transformer box because I made it 20 years ago before there were other options. I added through jacks eventually so I could also use it as a monitor piece while printing raw M/S if I want.
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Post by Ward on Oct 7, 2022 9:06:15 GMT -6
Personally, I'm not a fan of the pseudo-stereo MS technique, but I respect others who do appreciate it...
However, this is an intriguing because I'm wondering if there's a simple EFFECTIVE DAW plugin solution where an engineer could record the Center microphone on one channel and the Sides on another and simply manipulate it in the mix?
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beyer160
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Post by beyer160 on Oct 7, 2022 9:06:59 GMT -6
Goodhertz has a free MS encoder/decoder plugin that works excellent. Cool, thanks! Just downloaded. |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 7, 2022 9:47:49 GMT -6
I'm wondering if there's a simple EFFECTIVE DAW plugin solution where an engineer could record the Center microphone on one channel and the Sides on another and simply manipulate it in the mix? Sure record M and S to L and R of a stereo track, put a plug on the track. Bounce it to stereo if you want. If unclear on the blend, push side up until it's phasey (which tells you there's too much S), pull it back to the border of that, then you have max width as is, which can be narrowed to increase center and decrease width. Or you can put it back through the plug to get M and S again. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 7, 2022 11:22:54 GMT -6
I'm wondering if there's a simple EFFECTIVE DAW plugin solution where an engineer could record the Center microphone on one channel and the Sides on another and simply manipulate it in the mix? Sure record M and S to L and R of a stereo track, put a plug on the track. Bounce it to stereo if you want. If unclear on the blend, push side up until it's phasey (which tells you there's too much S), pull it back to the border of that, then you have max width as is, which can be narrowed to increase center and decrease width. Or you can put it back through the plug to get M and S again. I appreciate that. I'm gonna give the suggestion from Blackdawg a go and thanks to you for weighing in! |
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 7, 2022 11:32:48 GMT -6
As am I. Thank you.
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Post by Omicron9 on Oct 7, 2022 12:04:07 GMT -6
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 7, 2022 12:11:13 GMT -6
Hmmm… I wonder how much that little bad boy is.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 7, 2022 12:11:44 GMT -6
Personally, I'm not a fan of the pseudo-stereo MS technique, but I respect others who do appreciate it... However, this is an intriguing because I'm wondering if there's a simple EFFECTIVE DAW plugin solution where an engineer could record the Center microphone on one channel and the Sides on another and simply manipulate it in the mix? as it looks like you already figured out, but the M/S matrix plugin from Goodhertz does this exactly. I don't us MS a lot for music but for production audio its very handy and I use it there. When I track it on my Sounddevices I get an ISO track of the mid and side mic. Slap them into mono tracks in PT, pan the mid mic hard left and the side hard right, then bus them to a stereo Aux track. I then put the M/S Matrix plugin on the stereo track. You have to select on the bottom of the plugin what you are sending it. It defaults to L|R in and L|R out. I switch it to M|S in and L|R out. Which means it's looking for mid mic on the left channel and Side on the right(duh). From there I can manipulate the width and volume with the plugin. Or you can do this with the volume faders of the mono tracks. I do it this way(mono audio tracks bussed to a stereo bus) because often I find I need to EQ the side mic differently. Usually because of wind noise. Just allows me to process the mid vs side separately still before being decoded. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Oct 7, 2022 12:19:13 GMT -6
Hmmm… I wonder how much that little bad boy is. I bought mine around 10 years ago, and I can't recall exactly what I paid, but I have a vague recollection of something around $400. Sounds pricey, but it's very well-made and thought-out. After I started using it, it didn't seem expensive any more. You could drive your car over it and it would emerge unscathed; built like an anvil. -09 |
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 7, 2022 14:24:41 GMT -6
I’m grabbing the Goodhertz now, but still may grab the Sonic Orbit too, just to get a hands-on grasp of the workflow differences.
I still have the stupid thought in the back of my head of shoving two capsules, sub-mini tubes, small output transformers,
and JT-MB-Ds into an 47-type body, for a crazy stereo end-address microphone! Why? It just sounds fun! I was hoping for SD capsules, but it seems does one in Fig-8 without going big manufacturer, in housing for their mics, and for good money.
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