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Post by thecolourfulway on Jul 11, 2022 13:06:53 GMT -6
Wow, just went to restock my tape locker and a 1/4” SM900 master tape is now $96, used to be about $65 I believe. ATR is now a bit cheaper at $86. I’ve tried ATR in the past and did not like the sound as much as SM900 but I know many people prefer it. Does anyone know if the ATR is a similar formulation to SM900 (which I believe is basically GP9? Could be wrong about that)…my machine is set up for SM900 which may (or may not) explain why I didn’t like the ATR
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Post by svart on Jul 11, 2022 14:08:30 GMT -6
Wow, just went to restock my tape locker and a 1/4” SM900 master tape is now $96, used to be about $65 I believe. ATR is now a bit cheaper at $86. I’ve tried ATR in the past and did not like the sound as much as SM900 but I know many people prefer it. Does anyone know if the ATR is a similar formulation to SM900 (which I believe is basically GP9? Could be wrong about that)…my machine is set up for SM900 which may (or may not) explain why I didn’t like the ATR I've only used 456 or 911 on my machines, so I'm not really sure how ATR Master might stack up. It looks like 900 is much higher output rated and has a thicker oxide than ATR Master. I wonder if that's why you didn't like ATR before, maybe you were hitting it a little too hard if your machine was biased +9 for SM900? But one consideration other than signal.. ATR seems to be pretty notorious for being dirty. Shedding new oxide seems to be a big issue and the usual answer is run the tape through a few times and then clean the heads before recording. Seems a little ridiculous to me. |
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Post by keymod on Jul 11, 2022 14:36:08 GMT -6
Svart, that issue was very early on and had been resolved, iirc. I've been using ATR 1/2", reels and pancakes, on both my 8track and 2track machines without issue
My Otari decks are set up at +6, even though the tape can go higher.
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chris
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Post by chris on Jul 11, 2022 14:44:43 GMT -6
Not sure about 1/4” but I thought atr 2” sounded way better
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Post by keymod on Jul 11, 2022 15:55:19 GMT -6
I recently read an article stating tape prices, based on available recording time per reel, are in line with what they were thirty years ago taking inflation into account.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jul 11, 2022 17:36:50 GMT -6
If the standard ATR is not +9 then yeah that totally makes sense. Probably not worth changing bias to save $10 per reel haha, but geez if RTM keeps going up…
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Post by drumsound on Jul 11, 2022 18:04:36 GMT -6
If the standard ATR is not +9 then yeah that totally makes sense. Probably not worth changing bias to save $10 per reel haha, but geez if RTM keeps going up… You probably should be calibrating your machine more often, I'm guessing... I thought SM900 was kind of bland compared to GP9 or 996. I like ATR 1/4" |
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Post by christopher on Jul 11, 2022 19:45:30 GMT -6
The metal reels went up quite last few years.
Pancakes are still reasonable, as a cheap work around.
It’s much better to have new reels though, nice and clean.
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Post by keymod on Jul 12, 2022 3:06:00 GMT -6
If the standard ATR is not +9 then yeah that totally makes sense. Probably not worth changing bias to save $10 per reel haha, but geez if RTM keeps going up… Just checked ATR website and they state their Master Tape is "+6 class". |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 4:12:31 GMT -6
I recently read an article stating tape prices, based on available recording time per reel, are in line with what they were thirty years ago taking inflation into account. This needs some perspective, if you were buying in small quantities, yes this is probably true, but most large studios were not buying retail they were dealers. Now a studio / dealer was probably buying at what ever the price sheet said, the magic for the studio owner was he was getting 30 days terms. A number of the medium to large studios who were buying lots of tape and other stuff were doing even better per reel because they were calling me. Our deal with Ampex, BASF, and Scotch was such that I could pretty much beat end colum pricing even if you were a dealer. The thought process was simple: your going to call me to order tape and if you need a 57 or some cables or a DAT machine I’m going to offer a good deal, it’s not going to cost extra to ship the gear and you don’t need to waste time. We did so much tape it wasn’t funny, and I did so much that there was a section in the warehouse that was just for my clients tape stock! Every month the Ampex rep would come in and write me a big old bonus check. The only non Ampex tape we pushed was the Fuji Pro SVHS especially for ADATs because the service guys begged us not to Push the Ampex ADAT tape ( it was standard Ampex SVHS, they just paid Alesis a royalty) because at the jacked up speed in that crappy JVC consumer transport it just ahead and the Sony 8mm.. Some peoples recollection of tape prices is blurred a bit by the ADAT / DA88 phase where you could get 8 tracks 44min for $15. Also remember a hard disk at that time with equivalent track time was 4 times as much, the equivalent today would be a far less finicky SD card. You always hear the line “ I miss the smell of tape”, I don’t I miss the smell of money that tape put in my pocket! That and CDRs before you could buy in bulk at Best Buy. |
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Post by winetree on Jul 12, 2022 13:24:54 GMT -6
I was an Ampex dealer and as I remember a 2" reel of tape was my price $100.
at $300. (3 reels) in tape for a project, most balked at the price. So, I would rent tape for small projects.
Today the cost of tape is what they want to spent on the project. Hard drives are cheaper. Radar or DAW recorders.
But, I still have the tape machines for my album projects.
The time it takes, "the smell of the tape" and THE SOUND makes it worth it.
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Post by Hudsonic on Jul 12, 2022 14:06:50 GMT -6
ATR tape is a +6 tape like RTM SM911--standard bias. SM900 is a +9 tape.
3M 996 became Quantegy GP9, it was still the same formulation as the 3M 996.
Price increases are really out of whack. Metal reel adds $40 to the price when it costs $3.50.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 15:01:13 GMT -6
ATR tape is a +6 tape like RTM SM911--standard bias. SM900 is a +9 tape. 3M 996 became Quantegy GP9, it was still the same formulation as the 3M 996. Price increases are really out of whack. Metal reel adds $40 to the price when it costs $3.50. Yeah metal reels are pure profit at this point, I found some NOS G9 on pancakes for a friend, then went to the local used record store that had taken in a bunch of stuff somebody had record, all on nice metal reels at $.10 ea bought them screwed the metal sides on the pancake hubs and he is golden, should have kept a couple. |
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jul 12, 2022 16:06:46 GMT -6
Price increases are really out of whack. Metal reel adds $40 to the price when it costs $3.50. Right?! Plastic reel hasn’t really gone up at all now that I look again, geez! |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 16, 2022 19:11:29 GMT -6
Right?! Plastic reel hasn’t really gone up at all now that I look again, geez! Main ingredient for plastic? Oil. Also a lot of oil & plastics in magnetic tape itself... the backing & binders. Not to really go there but if anyone's looked a gas pump in the last few months this shouldn't be too shocking. The mechanic I use... their shop is located in an industrial park. Some months ago they started tearing up the parking lot... massive job that also includes septic fields, leveling ground etc. Acres of ground. Price tag for the whole thing is supposedly a cool million bucks. And apparently the firm contracted to do the work is freaking out and hoping to not loose money or at least too much. Why? Lotta oil in asphalt. The price of which tripled in between the year they bid that job and when work actually started. Last record I made 100% tape track to mix no computer was 2008. Cost wise it's still one of the least expensive pieces of making a record... problem is not enough artists want to abandon the editing & such that comes with digital. Yanking the "instant fixes" and running 2" 16? Puts some people in an uncomfortable place. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 17, 2022 11:17:31 GMT -6
If the standard ATR is not +9 then yeah that totally makes sense. Probably not worth changing bias to save $10 per reel haha, but geez if RTM keeps going up… Sounds like maybe you didn't recalibrate when trying the ATR? If you didn't do a complete alignment then you should expect vastly skewed results. IME ATR vs SM900 requires changes to just about every setting. I realign every time I switch to a new batch of tape, even of the same formula, because there are differences from batch to batch. Once aligned I prefer ATR, mostly because it runs smoother through my Ampex's tape path, but also because of the sound and durability. Shedding issues are from the distant past. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2022 13:13:19 GMT -6
If the standard ATR is not +9 then yeah that totally makes sense. Probably not worth changing bias to save $10 per reel haha, but geez if RTM keeps going up… Sounds like maybe you didn't recalibrate when trying the ATR? If you didn't do a complete alignment then you should expect vastly skewed results. IME ATR vs SM900 requires changes to just about every setting. I realign every time I switch to a new batch of tape, even of the same formula, because there are differences from batch to batch. Once aligned I prefer ATR, mostly because it runs smoother through my Ampex's tape path, but also because of the sound and durability. Shedding issues are from the distant past. And this has pretty much always been the case! Even in the glory days of tape we would at least once a month get a call “ hey I need to return this box of tape it doesn’t sound like the last box” when you asked well did you recalibrate and align? “ well no it’s the same tape and there is nothing with the tape that says I need to so I need to return it” Umm go look at the manual for your machine because it says so! Funny enough guys who were using cassette never cared and those decks were never in alignment! |
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Post by drbill on Jul 17, 2022 18:38:19 GMT -6
Aligned the ol MCI before every session. Sometimes as much as 3X's a day. I wonder how many currently running tape have ever cal'd once.... Hmm.... I'd be willing to be 50+ %.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2022 19:11:58 GMT -6
Aligned the ol MCI before every session. Sometimes as much as 3X's a day. I wonder how many currently running tape have ever cal'd once.... Hmm.... I'd be willing to be 50+ %. Hey Bill I will never forget the first guy to buy a PT TDM rig from me, “all I have to do is de Frag the drive every couple of days?” |
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Post by drbill on Jul 17, 2022 19:25:35 GMT -6
Aligned the ol MCI before every session. Sometimes as much as 3X's a day. I wonder how many currently running tape have ever cal'd once.... Hmm.... I'd be willing to be 50+ %. Hey Bill I will never forget the first guy to buy a PT TDM rig from me, “all I have to do is de Frag the drive every couple of days?” $#!@!!!!! What? Serious?? I'm supposed to defrag my drives?? It's been decades!!! Better hop to it! Haha!  |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 17, 2022 21:37:54 GMT -6
I'd totally forgotten about defragging drives! Ah, the days of 300mb SCSI drives and Data DAT backups. Unbelievable how much work I did that way.
Oh, I'm so very very old...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2022 5:46:17 GMT -6
I'd totally forgotten about defragging drives! Ah, the days of 300mb SCSI drives and Data DAT backups. Unbelievable how much work I did that way. Oh, I'm so very very old... Join the club! |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 18, 2022 16:51:06 GMT -6
Funny enough guys who were using cassette never cared and those decks were never in alignment! Cassette 4 track guys were generally either happy to be recording period or nowadays, treat it as an FX box. My old studio partner had a Yamaha 4 track. Someone asked if we can distort & reverse, mangle their drum loops? This is not a problem... One thing I haven't seen mentioned is transport alignment. Things like torque boards & pinch roller tension. And its pretty key, dialing in the tape handling matters for things like shedding. Are we treating the tape nicely or beating it up? Shedding? How about slipping? Tape comes in different thicknesses and not all machines are going to handle the change without getting a setup. Generally the newer higher output tapes are thicker & heavier then old school formulations. If the deck is older, or even just worn out and hasn't seen a tuneup for 15 years tape can slip and shed when you slap up a reel that's a different formulation. If you've ever run a session where the locator... lets say take 2 is set to start at 5 minutes? And after an hour of cutting vocals now the 5 minute locate point is halfway into verse 1? The transport & motors need attention. In extreme cases... extreme slippage and imbalanced motors can lead to all sorts of unhappy situations like dumping a 100 + feet of tape on the ground before you can hit stop. But yeah, ideally when running tape best practice is to check alignment every day. New reels of tape even from the same batch? I'd at least print 30 seconds of 1kHz and spot check. You never know. Switching brands & formulations? Bust out an MRL & full alignment. I take all the "output level" stuff on different tapes with a grain of salt anyway... Just because a tape is spec'd at +9/185 or whatever doesn't actually mean the decks electronics can actually handle that sort of level without crapping out. Sometimes its best to operate lower. Back in the day when I ran a JH24 after a while I settled on SM900 +5/185 at 15ips as the house alignment. The real thing to me is how the tape handles on the transport. Sound is one thing. Differences between input & repro occur for all sorts of reasons but if the tape isn't moving well?! Dude. Game over. Just an observation, but one of the main differences between tape & digital over the last 20 years? Circa 1999 you could find 2" decks everywhere. Every legit studio had one or two. Even semi legit punk rock shops like myself had one. But PT? An actual DAW rig? Nobody had that. If you wanted Toolz on the session it was a rental, and you hired the rig and an operator. Paid way, way extra for that on top of whatever the daily fee was. In 2019 now the DAW rigs are everywhere. From the humble bedroom to million dollar shops everyone's got one. And almost nobody runs analog 2" - and if you do happen to want that? Only the best of the best, and most expensive rooms still have them. Reliable decks anyway. One of the only shops in the immediate area (like a couple hours drive) that I trust to have a deck I can just flip on and go? They have 3 machines to keep one running. The cherry in the control room. Nearly ready to go backup in the live room, just wheel it in... and a 3rd to cannibalize. That's on top of all the other bits they have in storage. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2022 17:53:29 GMT -6
Funny enough guys who were using cassette never cared and those decks were never in alignment! Cassette 4 track guys were generally either happy to be recording period or nowadays, treat it as an FX box. My old studio partner had a Yamaha 4 track. Someone asked if we can distort & reverse, mangle their drum loops? This is not a problem... One thing I haven't seen mentioned is transport alignment. Things like torque boards & pinch roller tension. And its pretty key, dialing in the tape handling matters for things like shedding. Are we treating the tape nicely or beating it up? Shedding? How about slipping? Tape comes in different thicknesses and not all machines are going to handle the change without getting a setup. Generally the newer higher output tapes are thicker & heavier then old school formulations. If the deck is older, or even just worn out and hasn't seen a tuneup for 15 years tape can slip and shed when you slap up a reel that's a different formulation. If you've ever run a session where the locator... lets say take 2 is set to start at 5 minutes? And after an hour of cutting vocals now the 5 minute locate point is halfway into verse 1? The transport & motors need attention. In extreme cases... extreme slippage and imbalanced motors can lead to all sorts of unhappy situations like dumping a 100 + feet of tape on the ground before you can hit stop. But yeah, ideally when running tape best practice is to check alignment every day. New reels of tape even from the same batch? I'd at least print 30 seconds of 1kHz and spot check. You never know. Switching brands & formulations? Bust out an MRL & full alignment. I take all the "output level" stuff on different tapes with a grain of salt anyway... Just because a tape is spec'd at +9/185 or whatever doesn't actually mean the decks electronics can actually handle that sort of level without crapping out. Sometimes its best to operate lower. Back in the day when I ran a JH24 after a while I settled on SM900 +5/185 at 15ips as the house alignment. The real thing to me is how the tape handles on the transport. Sound is one thing. Differences between input & repro occur for all sorts of reasons but if the tape isn't moving well?! Dude. Game over. Just an observation, but one of the main differences between tape & digital over the last 20 years? Circa 1999 you could find 2" decks everywhere. Every legit studio had one or two. Even semi legit punk rock shops like myself had one. But PT? An actual DAW rig? Nobody had that. If you wanted Toolz on the session it was a rental, and you hired the rig and an operator. Paid way, way extra for that on top of whatever the daily fee was. In 2019 now the DAW rigs are everywhere. From the humble bedroom to million dollar shops everyone's got one. And almost nobody runs analog 2" - and if you do happen to want that? Only the best of the best, and most expensive rooms still have them. Reliable decks anyway. One of the only shops in the immediate area (like a couple hours drive) that I trust to have a deck I can just flip on and go? They have 3 machines to keep one running. The cherry in the control room. Nearly ready to go backup in the live room, just wheel it in... and a 3rd to cannibalize. That's on top of all the other bits they have in storage. Remember the Uhber expensive Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck with auto alignment, well not really it had auto azimuth you still really needed a scope! Around Madison analog tape was pretty dead around 97, after Digi gave Butch Vig his first PT rig it was done. There was some ADAT and DA88 but you also have to remember Madison was the home of Sonic Foundry so everybody new somebody so Vegas was on almost every laptop. It seams like every week Someone is calling me about some tape machine here in KC, but nobody has a head report nobody wants to learn how to sync and nobody wants to pay for tape. Yet they all seam to get bought and you see the same machine on Craigslist list in 6-18 months. Funny enough there is a guy who instead of going 2in has a bunch of Teac 3440’s some how sync’ed though I not sure if sync at multiple 3440’s should be in the same sentence. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 18, 2022 17:57:55 GMT -6
Only the best of the best, and most expensive rooms still have them. Yup. And even those rooms (like Capitol Studios), they are usually parked in the hallways with a cover over them. CRM space is too valuable to clog it up with a huge machine that only gets requested once every 6 months to a year. <sigh> |
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