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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 1, 2022 13:31:55 GMT -6
I've been wondering if I should invest in a summing mixer... If so, why? Here is a basic rundown on my rig:
Manley Core UA 4-710 Revive- Vintage Audio M12 (Handmade API 312 clones) Iron Age Audio QPP Vintech Dual72 Langevin DVC Lindell 18xs Weight Tank WT-72 Weight Tank Comp Lindell 17xs JDK R22 KT-2A x 2 Drawmer 1978 Tonelux Equalux MOTU 16A Interface Most of the usual plugs from SoundToys, FabFilter, Valhalla, PSP etc
So, lots of flavors for pres, EQ and compression. Live room treated well with GiK, legit mic locker.
I've done some reading on summing and its hard to really nail down what is a quantifiable benefit. Like... should I just get better at mixing, or can summing actually make a difference with headroom, making a mix feel 'big', adding punch to drums, etc?? Or should I just do stuff like print drums through the Drawmer and the mix the Tonelux EQs for a little flavor?
Edit - Also am I just trying to do something a good mastering engineer is going to do anyway?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2022 13:49:14 GMT -6
This is something I've pondered for a long while. It'll never be as dramatic as a M/S version of a Pultec or a saturating MU and there's a million ways both ITB and OTB to extensively warp a signal, Chandler Curve Bender plug for example.
After trying out a few mixing desks and summing mixers I came to the conclusion I'd be better off spending more on decent HW. IMO work on your two bus or mix bus chains, I have a Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph, API 529, Gainlabs Audio Empress and BetterMaker Mastering limiter. Between those I can get stuff as punchy, big or wide as you could ever need them to be. The issue for me is going overboard..
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 1, 2022 13:50:03 GMT -6
Just my humble opinion but I feel that 99.9% of the benefits of summing come from type of mojo imparted from the analog gain stages. Like from transformers, tubes, etc in the summing mixer.
I’d think you’d get as far, if not farther, using your current outboard as HW inserts, even in just a few channels. (Maybe you’re already doing that, idk). That’s just my experience
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 1, 2022 13:51:02 GMT -6
I've spent my pennies on a great stereo bus chain (lot's of tubes and transformers) and it does sound huge, very 3D with great depth and width.
If I could afford it, I would sum through a Neve 8424 .... small matter of $30K :-)
I'm personally not sold on cheap little summing mixers - they never sound any different to a great stereo chain to my ears.
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mjau
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Post by mjau on Jun 1, 2022 13:58:49 GMT -6
I have a Folcrom in my rack and was debating selling it because I was pretty happy with what I was getting in the box. But last week I decided to run some stems out to it and mix into a pair of BAE 312's, and I definitely could hear a difference - wider, and better space around reverb tails. The summing in LUNA sounds good, but I don't get this same width until I sum externally.
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Post by Chad on Jun 1, 2022 14:04:29 GMT -6
RND Satellite 5059.
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Post by drbill on Jun 1, 2022 14:27:57 GMT -6
Simple answer - No, and none.
Longer answer is hinted or directly addressed previously. The magic for most mixers / summing boxes is not in the "summing", it's in the makeup gain. When we were designing the first version of the Silver Bullet, Brad and I tested this pretty extensively, and we came to the conclusion that we could get the same thing with a 2 buss box - i.e. the Silver Bullet in our case.
There's a very simple test that you can do to figure out if it's the makeup gain or the summing that's what you are after. Do a mix ITB. After you're done, Buss it out 8/16/24 wide and run it into your summer, and set the makeup gain to where you want it and record it back into your DAW on a stereo track. Now, collapse your 8/16/24 wide mix to a stereo out buss and run it through 2 channel of your summing box. You may have to tweak with the levels, but hit the makeup gain at the same drive level and also record back into a stereo track in your DAW. Compare.
Both may (for me, almost certainly will) be significantly different than summing ITB with nothing on the 2 buss, but IME, they will be so close to identical that you won't be able to tell the difference. At least not if you did the test right. so.....why spend all the money on extra wire ($$$), patch bays, summers, etc.. when you can just go out your 2 buss and hit a 2 buss processing chain.
Essentially, I just described the Silver bullet to you. 3 console topologies that can be cascaded together with minimal muss and fuss. API, SSL, Neve. All in a simple box.
Do your own testing. It's the only way you'll know for sure. If you read internet stuff you'll be chasing your summing tail for years. Most people who say "summing" don't even understand what summing actually is, or what the makeup gain is bringing to the table.
All that said, there ARE summing boxes that have juicy makeup gain and transformer circuitry that helps them sound better than ITB. But as mentioned above, you can probably get the same goodness just running your 2 buss into the box and ignoring the other 6-14-22 channels...
Good luck! Don't take my word for it!!!!!!!! Experiment! But try to understand what you're experimenting with!
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 1, 2022 14:50:39 GMT -6
Simple answer - No, and none. ... This is all really helpful, I'll definitely be trying this on my next mix project! Curious of any other boxes that are similar to the Silver Bullet? I'll do some research on that one as well, but curious of other options. Part of what got me thinking on this was sitting in on a mix session for my client with Adrien Olsen - If I recall he was printing the mix through a Terry CEQ, a well maintained Ampex tape machine, Chandler Zen Limiter, maybe a couple other things. Sheesh. Coupled with his talent as a mix engineer, really amazing mixes. Obviously that dips into a number of other factors.
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Post by deaconblues on Jun 1, 2022 15:05:18 GMT -6
Similar sized setup over here and I picked up a Satellite 5059. I got it for utility in addition to the sonic benefits. I work with a good amount of multichannel drum machines & synths which means lots of stuff happening in the tracking stage while I stack and layer sounds. Composition and tracking are frequently pretty interlinked. I needed/wanted the ability to sum multiple busses simultaneously, and have easy parallel channels with inserts. Having this many parallel "blenders" is pretty great. Basically: I wanted a nice mixer that had inserts and bussing -- the (real, but difficult to describe) sonic benefits and nice price on a barely used unit sweetened the deal.
I'll be the friendly reminder for threads on summing that the cabling and patchbay price tag is not for the feint of heart. The workflow is also a big change. It's definitely a time commitment to every project when you get to mix down, unless you get something with no volume or panning that doesn't require calibration, etc. Or if you leave it calibrated and don't touch it. That doesn't work for my projects, but I'm not a commercial studio -- so I don't mind (and actually enjoy the zen of) patching everything. In some ways, the change to my setup has caused me to work a bit more efficiently because I now separate my tracking days from mix days. Having the ability to ADHD my way into 5 different projects in the same day seems cool on paper, but usually doesn't result in anything productive. Adding a small cabling, calibration, and workflow handicap ended up giving me a little focus.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2022 15:20:34 GMT -6
You don't need one, and no I don't care to elaborate.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Jun 1, 2022 15:54:14 GMT -6
If you’d have devices you’d like to use on busses or individual elements of your mix, then they can be a good tool for that.
If you just want the the device to impart color, then I’d advise sticking to a nice 2 bus chain-Silver Bullet, Pultecs, great compressor, etc.
I had to build a adder box to adjust levels after certain compressors that I used for post compression volume rides. Speck makes a nice box like this.
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Post by drbill on Jun 1, 2022 19:15:52 GMT -6
Simple answer - No, and none. ... Curious of any other boxes that are similar to the Silver Bullet? . Same answer - no and none! LOL. . Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously, any quality piece of analog gear with give you something. More = more something. To get the magical fairy dust for you? Who knows. For me, right now, it's a Silver Bullet mk2 followed by ZOD IDDI's. Loving that. It's my tracking on an API, producing on a Neve, Mixing on an SSL with some tube gear following it up. A sweet, modern, malleable sound for me. The Silver Bullet is designed to give you a "console" sound of various flavors, but you might find you end up liking a VariMu with the output pushed up - or a Locomotive Weight Tank with same, or driving a pultec hard with some makeup gain afterwards, or ?? That's the fun of it. Experimentation. But if you're still wondering about summing, the experiment I described above will help make up your mind for you. Good luck and have fun with it.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 1, 2022 21:01:26 GMT -6
IMHO, you really just need to decide if you want an analog finishing chain or you're good to go ITB. People are getting sounds from both ends of the spectrum at all levels.
I prefer hardware summing and the CAPI SumBus is wonderful. The Burl B32 is awesome as well.
Choose your tools, go with it.
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Post by RealNoob on Jun 1, 2022 22:01:17 GMT -6
-delete-
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Post by seawell on Jun 2, 2022 0:30:40 GMT -6
You don't need one...but I definitely wouldn't want to be without one either. I've mixed for years entirely ITB and then for years summing/hybrid. I've used most, if not all of the most popular summing mixers extensively. I like the Dangerous ones the best for what it's worth. The trouble with summing mixers is that you really can't a/b to see if they make a difference because you have to mix THROUGH them to know if it's the right fit for you. I work better/faster when summing so that's my 2 cents.
My current 2 buss chain is Dangerous 2 Bus > Focusrite Red 3 > AML ezP-1a pair. Love it 👍🏼 Also, I spent some time with the Silver Bullet MK1 and SSL Fusion and liked them both better with the Dangerous summing. I liked what they added but didn't feel that either replaced summing. I know others feel differently and I think a lot of it depends on the way you work and the type of material you're working on. I don't think you can truly find an answer until you try it yourself, in your studio, on your songs.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 2, 2022 0:31:19 GMT -6
Bill you chiming in on every thread on here hyping something you profit from is just a bit over the line.
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Post by christophert on Jun 2, 2022 2:00:11 GMT -6
You don't need one...but I definitely wouldn't want to be without one either. I've mixed for years entirely ITB and then for years summing/hybrid. I've used most, if not all of the most popular summing mixers extensively. I like the Dangerous ones the best for what it's worth. The trouble with summing mixers is that you really can't a/b to see if they make a difference because you have to mix THROUGH them to know if it's the right fit for you. I work better/faster when summing so that's my 2 cents. My current 2 buss chain is Dangerous 2 Bus > Focusrite Red 3 > AML ezP-1a pair. Love it 👍🏼 Also, I spent some time with the Silver Bullet MK1 and SSL Fusion and liked them both better with the Dangerous summing. I liked what they added but didn't feel that either replaced summing. I know others feel differently and I think a lot of it depends on the way you work and the type of material you're working on. I don't think you can truly find an answer until you try it yourself, in your studio, on your songs. Similar. I spent 20 years fulltime mixing through consoles, Neve, QuadEight and Electrodynes mainly. I sold my consoles, and tried ITB and never felt it compared. (kept my Electrodyne modules and a couple of Q8 Coranado strips)
Then I went with a summing mixer and found the ultimate way forward. What a huge difference.
I love the outcome when I can patch in API's / Electrodynes / Coils / Neves - plus outboard EQ's and comps across any channel / aux bus or the mix bus.
All have a huge impact on my mixes - let alone the amazing stereo image from my summing mixers.
In my world - I have had 3 decades to compare OTB vs ITB mixing. Summing mixers married with killer hardware are the way forward for me - forever.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 2, 2022 2:38:30 GMT -6
Bill you chiming in on every thread on here hyping something you profit from is just a bit over the line. In fairness, he does mention alternative ways of achieving a similar result such as a Vari Mu on the stereo mix bus - which is the solution I sonically prefer. If you’ve had a hand in designing something great then why not tell the world about it. I tell everyone I meet how fantastic my band is and the reason they should come to one of my shows! What’s the difference - none in my book.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 2, 2022 6:01:03 GMT -6
I notice on Facebook Dangerous Music seems to have a new product coming soon: might be of interest to you ?
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Post by drbill on Jun 2, 2022 8:00:41 GMT -6
Bill you chiming in on every thread on here hyping something you profit from is just a bit over the line. Sorry. It's my honest opinion. I should have put that I'm biased. I normally do. And of course I am. Still...I've done the above tests, and that's my honest opinion. Worth stating IMO. We don't need to sell any more mk2's. We're backordered from here to beyond the foreseeable future. Cheers, bp
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Post by Guitar on Jun 2, 2022 8:02:37 GMT -6
Ok, now you're just bragging. X-D
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Post by christopher on Jun 2, 2022 9:31:13 GMT -6
Here is a pretty recent comparison. I feel like his results match my experience, even though it’s not exact science, and the level matching is non existent on his channel. (To me it’s not a big deal to turn up or down the volume on whatever you are interested in to overcome any biases) To me I feel there are benefits to ITB in terms of extreme separation. That’s it’s strength. Other times it’s a weakness, which is most of the time for stuff I work on. I can hear a lot of mainstream stuff with the extreme separation of ITB, so it’s not gonna hold you back. It just isn’t going to get the summing sound. And really mixing on hardware and summing, that’s another level of production that is different again, and his results feel a lot like my experiments. But as you can hear, putting the huge price tag on any of this doesn’t come close to the difference in the end results. In the end, all styles can be fine depending on if you want that extreme separation of elements of ITB. If you constantly fight it like I do, well yeah I think something at minimum will help. I will get the link in a sec… I guess you have click play in YouTube. 🤷♂️. ok maybe this will work: Link to YouTube video
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 2, 2022 10:51:55 GMT -6
That CAPI is a monster
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Post by sirthought on Jun 2, 2022 11:52:31 GMT -6
;We're backordered from here to beyond the foreseeable future. Cheers, bp Backordered? Step up to the bench or hire someone. Don't leave them waiting. That 2 bus is counting on you.
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Post by Chad on Jun 2, 2022 12:21:42 GMT -6
;We're backordered from here to beyond the foreseeable future. Cheers, bp Backordered? Step up to the bench or hire someone. Don't leave them waiting. That 2 bus is counting on you. I thought I was accidentally on GS for a second.
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