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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 31, 2022 23:43:58 GMT -6
I'm planning on doing some solo voice-piano recording sessions and am trying to weigh my options for piano here..
I can afford an upright piano in the 3-6k range, mic it, and go from there, but I am wondering if anyone has had any convincing success with a VST piano against a vocal for a solo piano/vocal recording that you feel turned out well?
Apparently lewis capaldis 'someone you loved' was done on Keyscape so I've been considering that. But I just want as smooth a recording/mixing process as possible and tweaking midi over and over to try and get something to sound authentic sounds like a big headache, but I haven't tried and could be wrong there. Then again I don't know how well an upright in my price range would record or how difficult that would be either in comparison to a better than average VST for this application.
Any thoughts?
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Post by bossanova on Apr 1, 2022 7:35:55 GMT -6
Singer-pianist here. 99% of people minimum won't know the difference and will care more about the music you play with it. I personally use Pianoteq for "good enough" piano and vocal recordings.
If the performance sounds good I don't sweat the rest because I know that any dynamics and tonal shifts are coming from my fingers, and if they're not I need to practice more or do another take.
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Post by svart on Apr 1, 2022 7:38:02 GMT -6
As long as you have a controller that feels good enough, there are plenty of VSTs that sound great.
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Post by enlav on Apr 1, 2022 7:57:17 GMT -6
[...] tweaking midi over and over to try and get something to sound authentic sounds like a big headache, but I haven't tried and could be wrong there. [...] If your artist is proficient and knows how they want their piano to sound and.. assuming you have the system to run something in low latency.. letting them help dial in the sound usually works best for me. The biggest headache for me is if I start to hate the sound of a particular library and try to load in a different one. |
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Post by mcirish on Apr 1, 2022 8:26:32 GMT -6
I fall into that category and have done a lot of singer/piano recordings. For demos, I use the upright piano in Addictive Keys. I just like the sound. It is pretty close o my real piano; a Yamaha U3. While samples will get you there and it will sound good, It won't have the breath that a real piano has. It's like drum samples. I always mock-up songs with a drum sampler but when it comes time to record, I end up with real drums. Not just for the feel but for the warts. Seriously, the deficiencies of an instrument gives it the magical something that perfect samples can never give. They will be perfect and it will sound very good, but it will sound like every other recording that uses those samples. It's 100% much simpler though and it's true, most people won't be able to tell the difference or even care. The artist would feel the difference though.
If you decide to go with an upright, I would recommend a Yamaha U3. It's more of an upright grand than a regular upright. Take the top and bottom covers off it and stereo mic the bottom, a few inches in from each leg. Sounds pretty incredible IMO. Pedal noise is the only real issue and I wrap the pedal in a small towel and adjust the damper mechanism for the quietest operation. Seems like a lot of work and it is, but the results are on a different level. I got my U3 as a "gray market" refurbished for around $5300 a few years back. Tuning is a major PITA, but the sound is great.
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Post by bossanova on Apr 1, 2022 8:32:32 GMT -6
Oh speaking of latency, one thing to add: I only track through sound sources (my P90 or a synth module) where I can monitor in real time with zero lag, even if I'm just tracking the MIDI to add a different patch later.
I used to track through VSTs with an ultra low buffer for recording, and it still never sounded or felt right.
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Post by popmann on Apr 1, 2022 9:35:30 GMT -6
I'm just going to point out that using a sampled piano, even software, doesn't mean you have to record MIDI. Or honestly SHOULD.
I record audio of VI pianos. It's convoluted in most apps. But, as I've pointed out the mixbus folks--I'm not going to use the Kronos piano that's inferior to my Embertone Steinway (or whatever works for the session) because it's the hardware DP. It's not abotu MIDI sequencing...fuck that twelve times over. It's about better samples. You can buy a $10k digital piano and something like the Embertone or Ivory or Galaxy (trying to to imply props to a SPECIFIC company) will sound AND play better. THAT is what I want to record.
you can make arguments for acoustic vs digital...I leave that to the player to determine...but, you should be able to run a VI piano at hardware (meaning a hardware DP) latency on mostly anything suitable for VI work...and record that as live audio along side their vocal in the session. Not only no NEED for midi sequencing, you're losing the timing of the performance if you use it.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2022 10:32:22 GMT -6
The biggest issue is going to be how the musician(s) "feel" about the real piano vs. the VSTi. Performance is king over sonics. I'm a keyboard player, and although many VSTi's sound incredible - none of them really "feel" like a real piano to me. Depends on the song, and the performance, and the comfort of the performer. Personally, I'd have both options open if possible.
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Post by christopher on Apr 1, 2022 13:17:14 GMT -6
I went on youtube and listened to examples of people recording upright in their untreated spaces with $100 mics, looks hard to not get a usable sound. Much more organic than samples. Unless maybe you are looking for that specific VI up close detailed thing. I have production voices, sounds really good on single notes, chords kinda not as warm as real thing or something
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Post by ericn on Apr 1, 2022 14:18:11 GMT -6
The biggest issue is going to be how the musician(s) "feel" about the real piano vs. the VSTi. Performance is king over sonics. I'm a keyboard player, and although many VSTi's sound incredible - none of them really "feel" like a real piano to me. Depends on the song, and the performance, and the comfort of the performer. Personally, I'd have both options open if possible. I’m not a player but you beat me to it Doc. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 1, 2022 14:42:40 GMT -6
If you have a nice controller it'll help a lot. Also a quiet one. I've had people bring in cheap ones and the thumping and ticking of the controller keys bleeds into the vocal in a bad way. Because if the keys aren't weighted then they tend to just mash the crap out of them. Which can be bad.
Buying a piano is great. However, if it's a shit piano then you'll spend twice what you paid for it to get it adjusted and rehammered or whatever might need done to it. So keep that in mind. having a real piano is always great though I think.
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Post by M57 on Apr 1, 2022 14:44:54 GMT -6
The biggest issue is going to be how the musician(s) "feel" about the real piano vs. the VSTi. Performance is king over sonics. I'm a keyboard player, and although many VSTi's sound incredible - none of them really "feel" like a real piano to me. Depends on the song, and the performance, and the comfort of the performer. Personally, I'd have both options open if possible. +1 For me personally nothing beats the real thing, but I can think of a bunch of reasons to opt for virtual ..such as the need to edit down the line, etc. Also important is style and genre, but most important is playability, action, and being IN TUNE. Asking a player to play an out of tune piano is like asking a chef to make their signature dish with rotting ingredients. Just one or two notes going sour can ruin it for me. Fortunately, there are really good piano tuning software packages out there. And if you're queazy about doing it yourself, just learning to tune a unison by ear to fix the first few miscreant strings will save you a bunch a cash by keeping the piano tuner at bay a few extra weeks ..or even more. But why save a bunch of cash when you can save a ton? I haven't paid a tuner for well over a decade now. I'm always fixing the errant note here and there and I'd say I tune my piano from top to bottom at least every two months. Do the math at $150+ per tuning! An added bonus is that the software I use lets me tweak the stretch right to my preferential sweet spot. |
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Post by lando on Apr 1, 2022 22:38:27 GMT -6
I am a pianist with a 10k upright. I still use VIs exclusively for recording both my solo projects but also lots and lots of vocal-piano duo recordings and heavily piano featured full productions. It sounds and works perfectly and I believe I’m as picky as they come after playing, performing and recording on countless pianos during a long career.
The problem is not the sound, it is (possible) how it feels to play while recording. If you are going the VI route you should make sure to get a great master keyboard, Yamaha or Kawai, and make sure the latency is as low as possible, the lower buffer the better. That will help the performer a lot. It still won’t feel as an upright or a grand. But it might sound better in the end.
Plug in-wise you should go for a piano with lots of velocity layers. Garritan CFX or Embertone Walker D are two good ones if you want a grand. Keyscape is not cutting it in my book.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 2, 2022 4:32:59 GMT -6
I’ve had to use VIs for projects. Some are better than others. Pianotec is really good. Here are a couple of projects I recorded with voice and piano. Voyages and Glitter are Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano. schaeburmusic.wixsite.com/voyages/media |
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Post by askomiko on Apr 2, 2022 23:40:00 GMT -6
I'm no piano player, but I love the Pianoteq detuned a little bit. There's a slider for that in the plugin. (Not into silly honky-tonk territory, just a bit.) It makes it feel more real to me, since I haven't had access to real pianos that are tuned to perfection every day. My home piano was a neglected pos antique junk that I loved as a kid. Just sitting in front of a big piano and hammering the low octaves in audio induced bliss, that's where I'm at, skill wise.
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