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Post by mcirish on Mar 16, 2022 9:06:13 GMT -6
I ran into an issue that never hit me before. I was working on a mix and found there was a distortion on the All Vocals sub in Nuendo. After doing some experimenting, I found the culprit to be Waves Deesser. The original one. I use it quite often but I think that is about to change. I find that if you feed it a signal above 0dB, it will clip in a very nasty way. I tested every other Deesser I have (and a lot of other plugins) and I find that most all can handle whatever I send them without clipping. This old Waves Deesser sure doesn't like to be pushed. Normally, I wouldn't put a deesser on a vocal sub as I would put it on the individual tracks (which I did). In this case, I just needed to deess a finished mix slightly. At first I didn't notice it but then the song hit a louder area and I heard the clipping. I swapped that with a Weiss Deesser and I have no further problems.
Yes, I am aware that most plugins are made to work best at -18dB, but I've never seen a plugin do so much damage when pushed slightly. I didn't do an extensive testing of all plugins but my guess is that any Waves plugins that have an overload light in the gui will hard clip at 0dB. That was a bit eye opening for me. I had just renewed WUP in December. I think I will start using more alternatives. The main Waves that I use are: Deesser, MV2, H-Delay, R-Bass. I have probably 100 of their plugins but for some reason, I gravitate to those far too often. In Waves defense, their Sibilance plugin does not have this issue. Appears to only be the older stuff.
From the little testing I did, (pushing +16dB source into plugins) I didn't hear any problems with Softube, PA, Klanghelm, DMG and many other plugin makers. It must be due to when the old Waves were coded, but I can't see a reason why they coded them to clip at 0dB. Digital has such a huge headroom. Why put that constraint on it?
Anyone else have horror stories about misbehaving plugins?
(please... no lectures on gain staging, this was an isolated case that brought up a potential issue others might benefit from)
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Post by svart on Mar 16, 2022 9:13:41 GMT -6
I've heard of weird stuff happening with some plugs like that. There was one from what I remember was a well-known developer that would simply stop affecting the signal if pushed above 0. Seems that it used to be a case of development before-floating-point processing where folks had to work within pretty tight constraints of CPU power and processing bandwidth.
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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 16, 2022 9:31:39 GMT -6
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Post by tkaitkai on Mar 16, 2022 10:05:04 GMT -6
Yep, this one is a secret weapon of mine. Incredible plugin. |
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Post by mcirish on Mar 16, 2022 10:14:09 GMT -6
Yep, I have that one too. It didn't have the problem. I'd been thinking about buying the pro version, but I already have 6 deessers. :-) |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 16, 2022 11:10:51 GMT -6
I mean..is this that surprising? It's an old plugin that probably is not internally 32 bit or 64 bit like some modern plugins are. So of course it's going to clip? I don't see that as crazy. Its just old tech.
One could argue that your gain staging is off and you need to restructure it and then you wouldn't have issues.
Lots of ways to solve this problem though. But again, old tech so no surprising. Im sure there are much better alternatives to that one now.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 16, 2022 13:15:57 GMT -6
Yes, I am aware that most plugins are made to work best at -18dB, but I've never seen a plugin do so much damage when pushed slightly. I didn't do an extensive testing of all plugins but my guess is that any Waves plugins that have an overload light in the gui will hard clip at 0dB. That was a bit eye opening for me. I had just renewed WUP in December. ~~ From the little testing I did, (pushing +16dB source into plugins) I didn't hear any problems with Softube, PA, Klanghelm, DMG and many other plugin makers. It must be due to when the old Waves were coded, but I can't see a reason why they coded them to clip at 0dB. Digital has such a huge headroom. Why put that constraint on it? (please... no lectures on gain staging, this was an isolated case that brought up a potential issue others might benefit from) Yeah. All the time. Not new or all that surprising. Its difficult to talk about the subject and not get into the finer points of gain staging... Maybe I'm old school but 0dBfs is zero. Outta headroom. Game over. There's maybe, some new school of digital that says its ok to exceed zero & no damage is done. I'm not so sure. Have had experiences that don't match the statement. Like maybe things don't show up in the mix... but you get a couple generations down the line... mastering... replication... and there's a glitch I can trace back to a clipped point. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 16, 2022 18:21:37 GMT -6
[...] I had just renewed WUP in December. I think I will start using more alternatives. The main Waves that I use are: Deesser, MV2, H-Delay, R-Bass. I have probably 100 of their plugins but for some reason, I gravitate to those far too often. In Waves defense, their Sibilance plugin does not have this issue. Appears to only be the older stuff. From the little testing I did, (pushing +16dB source into plugins) I didn't hear any problems with Softube, PA, Klanghelm, DMG and many other plugin makers. It must be due to when the old Waves were coded, but I can't see a reason why they coded them to clip at 0dB. Digital has such a huge headroom. Why put that constraint on it? [...] Honestly, this is the part that really sucks, IMO. I can understand an old plugin being coded in a time before 32-bit floating point calculations and the like. I can understand the limitations they had to work with in the early days of plugins. Really, I can understand that. I can also understand ways to work around these limitations with gain staging. Of course. But what I CANNOT understand is Waves charging ridiculous WUP fees for those old plugins and not fixing that shit. That, to me, is inexcusable. I'm trying to decide whether to WUP right now and use the coupon towards their new voice noise reduction plugin. I'm so tired of the Waves BS. But some of their stuff is pretty exceptional. I really like Sibilance, FWIW. And I keep hearing awesome stuff about the new NR plugins. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 19:40:29 GMT -6
[...] I had just renewed WUP in December. I think I will start using more alternatives. The main Waves that I use are: Deesser, MV2, H-Delay, R-Bass. I have probably 100 of their plugins but for some reason, I gravitate to those far too often. In Waves defense, their Sibilance plugin does not have this issue. Appears to only be the older stuff. From the little testing I did, (pushing +16dB source into plugins) I didn't hear any problems with Softube, PA, Klanghelm, DMG and many other plugin makers. It must be due to when the old Waves were coded, but I can't see a reason why they coded them to clip at 0dB. Digital has such a huge headroom. Why put that constraint on it? [...] Honestly, this is the part that really sucks, IMO. I can understand an old plugin being coded in a time before 32-bit floating point calculations and the like. I can understand the limitations they had to work with in the early days of plugins. Really, I can understand that. I can also understand ways to work around these limitations with gain staging. Of course. But what I CANNOT understand is Waves charging ridiculous WUP fees for those old plugins and not fixing that shit. That, to me, is inexcusable. I'm trying to decide whether to WUP right now and use the coupon towards their new voice noise reduction plugin. I'm so tired of the Waves BS. But some of their stuff is pretty exceptional. I really like Sibilance, FWIW. And I keep hearing awesome stuff about the new NR plugins. Probably never updated since the 48 bit integer days of Pro Tools TDM They have no excuse because Waves q10 was always 32-bit float in native and the native versions of the Renaissance plugs were 64 bit float rounded to 32 bit float for export in the 90s. Tdm was 48-bit fixed dithered to 24-bit fixed |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 19:53:17 GMT -6
Waves also never improves the sound of their plugs. They just make a new one decades later. See Waves SSL where the CLA SSL and EV2 sound a lot better. They’re still selling GTR 3, the CLA comps, the JJP pultec and Fairchild that sound like digital distortion pedals, and the API bundle.
Some of these are worse than free plugs. That free Ignite Pultech is way better. The free version of TDR Slick EQ has an “American mode” that’s way better than the Waves API eqs. The cla comps are worse than the ones in your daw or the big old free comps (Blockfish, The og Molot, variety of sound, fir comp, etc)
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 16, 2022 20:01:49 GMT -6
[...] I had just renewed WUP in December. I think I will start using more alternatives. The main Waves that I use are: Deesser, MV2, H-Delay, R-Bass. I have probably 100 of their plugins but for some reason, I gravitate to those far too often. In Waves defense, their Sibilance plugin does not have this issue. Appears to only be the older stuff. From the little testing I did, (pushing +16dB source into plugins) I didn't hear any problems with Softube, PA, Klanghelm, DMG and many other plugin makers. It must be due to when the old Waves were coded, but I can't see a reason why they coded them to clip at 0dB. Digital has such a huge headroom. Why put that constraint on it? [...] Honestly, this is the part that really sucks, IMO. I can understand an old plugin being coded in a time before 32-bit floating point calculations and the like. I can understand the limitations they had to work with in the early days of plugins. Really, I can understand that. I can also understand ways to work around these limitations with gain staging. Of course. But what I CANNOT understand is Waves charging ridiculous WUP fees for those old plugins and not fixing that shit. That, to me, is inexcusable. I'm trying to decide whether to WUP right now and use the coupon towards their new voice noise reduction plugin. I'm so tired of the Waves BS. But some of their stuff is pretty exceptional. I really like Sibilance, FWIW. And I keep hearing awesome stuff about the new NR plugins. I mean you dont' have to do that at all. Unless you need to for the OS you're using. (M1 compatible for instance) I still have V8,9,10,11 Waves plugins installed. You can still get the old version installers. So you don't really need to do the plan unless it's needed. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 16, 2022 20:12:58 GMT -6
Honestly, this is the part that really sucks, IMO. I can understand an old plugin being coded in a time before 32-bit floating point calculations and the like. I can understand the limitations they had to work with in the early days of plugins. Really, I can understand that. I can also understand ways to work around these limitations with gain staging. Of course. But what I CANNOT understand is Waves charging ridiculous WUP fees for those old plugins and not fixing that shit. That, to me, is inexcusable. I'm trying to decide whether to WUP right now and use the coupon towards their new voice noise reduction plugin. I'm so tired of the Waves BS. But some of their stuff is pretty exceptional. I really like Sibilance, FWIW. And I keep hearing awesome stuff about the new NR plugins. I mean you dont' have to do that at all. Unless you need to for the OS you're using. (M1 compatible for instance) I still have V8,9,10,11 Waves plugins installed. You can still get the old version installers. So you don't really need to do the plan unless it's needed. yeah, in my case it would be needed. M1 over here. Funny, nobody else has charged me an “update fee,” despite this being potentially one of the biggest ever codebase transitions. Waves is the only one, at least so far. And I think Soundtoys and Slate are the only major remaining holdouts on my system at this point. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 16, 2022 23:50:49 GMT -6
I mean you dont' have to do that at all. Unless you need to for the OS you're using. (M1 compatible for instance) I still have V8,9,10,11 Waves plugins installed. You can still get the old version installers. So you don't really need to do the plan unless it's needed. yeah, in my case it would be needed. M1 over here. Funny, nobody else has charged me an “update fee,” despite this being potentially one of the biggest ever codebase transitions. Waves is the only one, at least so far. And I think Soundtoys and Slate are the only major remaining holdouts on my system at this point. Yeah I haven't purchased a new Waves plugin ever since they charged to go from RTAS to AAX when Avid pulled that stunt back in 2011 or so. That one thing has held be back from buying lots of plugins. I've started back up in the last 3 years with Fabfilter, DMG, DDMF, Soundtoys, and Goodhertz. But they are all good with the updates....at least for now. Waves was the first major one to really move to that Update plan. I updated certain plugins to get the AAX ones and then that's been it. I dont' have an M1 yet so no worried for now. |
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Post by mcirish on Mar 17, 2022 7:47:29 GMT -6
I had to do the WUP so I could get resizable GUIs. I'm working on a 4K monitor with Nuendo running in HiDPI mode. My eyes are not what they were and the clarity really helps. At least now I can see the interface well enough but the issues with some of the plugins still remain. I do know all about proper gain staging. I've been at this since the 70's and worked on tape for many years. I'm very glad those days are gone. Anyway, the limitations of those few old Waves plugins took me by surprise. That one vocal sub was a combination of 6 other subs for a total of 24 vocal parts. On a few peaks, it just edged over 0dB feeding that all vocal sub. The output of that sub was about -15 feeding the master buss but the input to it was a bit hot. Problem was solved by swapping out the Waves Deesser for something else.
It's too bad they haven't gone back and fixed some of those older plugins. MV2 can be quite nice to bring up some intimacy in a vocal on occasion. Just have to watch to make sure it never clips.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2022 9:18:19 GMT -6
I had to do the WUP so I could get resizable GUIs. I'm working on a 4K monitor with Nuendo running in HiDPI mode. My eyes are not what they were and the clarity really helps. At least now I can see the interface well enough but the issues with some of the plugins still remain. I do know all about proper gain staging. I've been at this since the 70's and worked on tape for many years. I'm very glad those days are gone. Anyway, the limitations of those few old Waves plugins took me by surprise. That one vocal sub was a combination of 6 other subs for a total of 24 vocal parts. On a few peaks, it just edged over 0dB feeding that all vocal sub. The output of that sub was about -15 feeding the master buss but the input to it was a bit hot. Problem was solved by swapping out the Waves Deesser for something else. It's too bad they haven't gone back and fixed some of those older plugins. MV2 can be quite nice to bring up some intimacy in a vocal on occasion. Just have to watch to make sure it never clips. Waves has had a few redone plugs but they make you buy a new plug and still sell the old ones to unsuspecting new customers: They made Q10 64-bit float internally to not have rising low end rounding noise at higher sample rates Waves Sibilance is great and better than the de-esser SSL 4000 EV2 is cool and vibier than the PA 4000 and less fat than UAD. CLA Mixhub was a little convoluted but sounded better than the original Waves SSL pack. Scheps 73 is way way better than the V series 1081 which sounds awful. Scheps Omni still has a bad clicky CLA 76 type FET model so i suspect sometimes they are repackaging some old algorithms |
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Post by donr on Mar 17, 2022 9:41:13 GMT -6
I had to do the WUP so I could get resizable GUIs. I'm working on a 4K monitor with Nuendo running in HiDPI mode. My eyes are not what they were and the clarity really helps. At least now I can see the interface well enough but the issues with some of the plugins still remain. I do know all about proper gain staging. I've been at this since the 70's and worked on tape for many years. I'm very glad those days are gone. Anyway, the limitations of those few old Waves plugins took me by surprise. That one vocal sub was a combination of 6 other subs for a total of 24 vocal parts. On a few peaks, it just edged over 0dB feeding that all vocal sub. The output of that sub was about -15 feeding the master buss but the input to it was a bit hot. Problem was solved by swapping out the Waves Deesser for something else. It's too bad they haven't gone back and fixed some of those older plugins. MV2 can be quite nice to bring up some intimacy in a vocal on occasion. Just have to watch to make sure it never clips. Waves has had a few redone plugs but they make you buy a new plug and still sell the old ones to unsuspecting new customers: They made Q10 64-bit float internally to not have rising low end rounding noise at higher sample rates Waves Sibilance is great and better than the de-esser SSL 4000 EV2 is cool and vibier than the PA 4000 and less fat than UAD. CLA Mixhub was a little convoluted but sounded better than the original Waves SSL pack. Scheps 73 is way way better than the V series 1081 which sounds awful. Scheps Omni still has a bad clicky CLA 76 type FET model so i suspect sometimes they are repackaging some old algorithms mcirish, I use a 4k TV as monitor and can't use the full resolution because the graphics are too small. I need readers to read anything now. Dan, I have nowhere near your comparative experience, but I like the CLA Mix plug to do that subtle SSL bus comp thing. 29 bucks every once in a while. As for gaining, I often trim down inputs to plugins, and make up the gain with what's after that. |
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Post by earlevel on Mar 17, 2022 16:50:52 GMT -6
Checking this out briefly, I believe it's working as designed.  That is, a de-esser is basically a compressor. This particular compressor has a threshold setting with a maximum setting of 0 dB. So, if you're hitting it extra hot, it's going to crush it, and not in a nice way. (Also, depending on threshold, I found that it was far worse on Split mode than Wide mode.) I'm not saying it a good de-esser, and I never use a de-esser. Just saying it seems to work as designed. I don't believe it has anything to due with "old" and "floating point". FWIW, I mainly got the Platinum bundle years ago to be compatible with a friend I collaborate with—but he moved on to UA and the Waves plugins got little use (and now I have a UAD-2). However, I gained a little respect for usability a while back when I was watching CLA (or someone of similar stature, doesn't matter—yes, I know he usually shows off with his signature plugins, but I recall that it was him) mixing up some tracks quickly and throwing on RVox. I was a little incredulous that he'd pick that, but I put it up on my own vocal, and dam—I sounded good! With no fuss. Made me think about how much time I waste tweaking the latest greatest things.  |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 20, 2022 16:21:30 GMT -6
Checking this out briefly, I believe it's working as designed. That is, a de-esser is basically a compressor. This particular compressor has a threshold setting with a maximum setting of 0 dB. So, if you're hitting it extra hot, it's going to crush it, and not in a nice way. (Also, depending on threshold, I found that it was far worse on Split mode than Wide mode.) I'm not saying it a good de-esser, and I never use a de-esser. Just saying it seems to work as designed. I don't believe it has anything to due with "old" and "floating point". FWIW, I mainly got the Platinum bundle years ago to be compatible with a friend I collaborate with—but he moved on to UA and the Waves plugins got little use (and now I have a UAD-2). However, I gained a little respect for usability a while back when I was watching CLA (or someone of similar stature, doesn't matter—yes, I know he usually shows off with his signature plugins, but I recall that it was him) mixing up some tracks quickly and throwing on RVox. I was a little incredulous that he'd pick that, but I put it up on my own vocal, and dam—I sounded good! With no fuss. Made me think about how much time I waste tweaking the latest greatest things. Do what you're essentially saying is that the plugin was designed by an incompetent and the company won't take responsibility? |
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Post by popmann on Mar 20, 2022 19:34:03 GMT -6
I'm going to once again have to defend Waves for a reason that people in personal studios don't necessarily value: recall. Waves has made some of these plug ins for 25+ years. They NEVER update the sound of a plug in to make it "better" for a REASON: it would kill recalls. If you're a guy at home working mostly on his own stuff, which at this point is also ME  , you want a better deEsser. Always. Why would you NOT want them to improve it? But, if you have a closet/server full of client mix sessions that you need to be able to fully recall--(because why else are you mixing all digitally?)...the value is that I can move sessions from macs to PCs and back (obviously with the same DAW)--and Waves will recall exactly as it was from 25 years ago. I'd actually have a harder time NOW opening that old of a Cubase file. I couldn't, actually. Anyway--Waves is the only company I've used that is CONSISTENTLY ROCK SOLID with that. Another company, I stopped using their audio plug ins, because they change the engine and fucked me on some recalls. I had to do it by ear. That DAY, I uninstalled them so now I can see the dead stump if I open up one of those plugs. I meant to reinstall the old engine version...but...life is short. WUP is, first off...a Mac Tax. But, secondly--THAT is what you're paying it for--not for them to "improve" the engines/sound/function. It CAN be brutal for a Mac user with a lot of Waves investment since Apple breaks compatibility for them regularly. I get that. As to hard clipping at 0dbfs. I'll be diplomatic and suggest that's not a malfunction that's easily avoided by proper gain staging 101. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 20, 2022 21:13:55 GMT -6
Well said re: WUP Mac tax
I’ve been scared aways from these waves sales for years because WUP. Haven’t tried them in 10 years. Recently I learned it’s just Mac users who get WUP’d, windows users have been ok. At least that’s what I’ve been told. Seems too good to be true LOL. (Steinberg did screw me on installing wavlab post Xp though)
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Post by sean on Mar 20, 2022 21:59:49 GMT -6
I'm going to once again have to defend Waves for a reason that people in personal studios don't necessarily value: recall. Waves has made some of these plug ins for 25+ years. They NEVER update the sound of a plug in to make it "better" for a REASON: it would kill recalls. If you're a guy at home working mostly on his own stuff, which at this point is also ME , you want a better deEsser. Always. Why would you NOT want them to improve it? But, if you have a closet/server full of client mix sessions that you need to be able to fully recall--(because why else are you mixing all digitally?)...the value is that I can move sessions from macs to PCs and back (obviously with the same DAW)--and Waves will recall exactly as it was from 25 years ago. I'd actually have a harder time NOW opening that old of a Cubase file. I couldn't, actually. Anyway--Waves is the only company I've used that is CONSISTENTLY ROCK SOLID with that. Another company, I stopped using their audio plug ins, because they change the engine and fucked me on some recalls. I had to do it by ear. That DAY, I uninstalled them so now I can see the dead stump if I open up one of those plugs. I meant to reinstall the old engine version...but...life is short. WUP is, first off...a Mac Tax. But, secondly--THAT is what you're paying it for--not for them to "improve" the engines/sound/function. It CAN be brutal for a Mac user with a lot of Waves investment since Apple breaks compatibility for them regularly. I get that. As to hard clipping at 0dbfs. I'll be diplomatic and suggest that's not a malfunction that's easily avoided by proper gain staging 101. The recall part is the truth, and I’m grateful. I had to recall a mix from 2007 to do a “no vocal” edit for a TV show that was mixed mostly with Waves plug ins and it recalled without issue, making the task a breeze. The TC Electronics VSS3 reverb plug-in, even though it’s been ported to Native, did not open. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 14:23:38 GMT -6
I'm going to once again have to defend Waves for a reason that people in personal studios don't necessarily value: recall. Waves has made some of these plug ins for 25+ years. They NEVER update the sound of a plug in to make it "better" for a REASON: it would kill recalls. If you're a guy at home working mostly on his own stuff, which at this point is also ME  , you want a better deEsser. Always. Why would you NOT want them to improve it? But, if you have a closet/server full of client mix sessions that you need to be able to fully recall--(because why else are you mixing all digitally?)...the value is that I can move sessions from macs to PCs and back (obviously with the same DAW)--and Waves will recall exactly as it was from 25 years ago. I'd actually have a harder time NOW opening that old of a Cubase file. I couldn't, actually. Anyway--Waves is the only company I've used that is CONSISTENTLY ROCK SOLID with that. Another company, I stopped using their audio plug ins, because they change the engine and fucked me on some recalls. I had to do it by ear. That DAY, I uninstalled them so now I can see the dead stump if I open up one of those plugs. I meant to reinstall the old engine version...but...life is short. WUP is, first off...a Mac Tax. But, secondly--THAT is what you're paying it for--not for them to "improve" the engines/sound/function. It CAN be brutal for a Mac user with a lot of Waves investment since Apple breaks compatibility for them regularly. I get that. As to hard clipping at 0dbfs. I'll be diplomatic and suggest that's not a malfunction that's easily avoided by proper gain staging 101. Yep. They just market the old stuff right next to the new stuff, which is a bit deceptive. And most of their older stuff wasn't as good as the Renaissance bundle, which like most PSP and Oxford Native plugs was optimized for non-oversampling, low cpu use, on ancient computers without getting gross. Waves can do this because since the beginning, they have their own custom development platform rather than just using JUCE and VST whatever. So does Sonnox (slow to update with original developer gone), U-he (they're managing and hired some new guns after sascha left), and Tokyo Dawn and Goodhertz. Everyone else? PITA ime. U-he rewrote their older assembly code to come out the same in C and optimized for recent intel cpus and arm? Who else does that besides them and Waves? Those developer planned stuff out from the very beginning for code maintainability and being able to fit it into whatever standard the daw developers required where others did not.
PSP plugins work forever... on windows. But some of the old versions don't open after you install the new ones. and they abandoned mix pack recently. The saturator and impressor are awesome but they didn't update the old code for those early 2000s sessions. Luckily you can get old installers from them if you just ask.
UAD just did this with some updates. Literally renamed plugs and sank sessions in the mix for some friends when they had to update to use UAD and then the unified installer installed the new ones.
Sonnox is slow but the oxford plugs usually open version to version. The newer plugs aren't as utility but are mostly good.
With all the issues around VST 2 being discontinued, AU problems, and VST3 issues, U-he is even working on their plugin format. CLAP. Created originally by their linux porter. A lot of developers still haven't even ported to VST3 due to issues with vs VST2 despite it having sample accurate automation. All the other main plugin formats have to be jerry rigged to work and VST2 allowed this but 3 and AU are pickier. So U-he finally said screw it and made their own format. the soonest to support it will probably be bitwig and reaper. www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574861 |
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Post by earlevel on Mar 22, 2022 1:13:09 GMT -6
Checking this out briefly, I believe it's working as designed. That is, a de-esser is basically a compressor. This particular compressor has a threshold setting with a maximum setting of 0 dB. So, if you're hitting it extra hot, it's going to crush it, and not in a nice way. (Also, depending on threshold, I found that it was far worse on Split mode than Wide mode.) I'm not saying it a good de-esser, and I never use a de-esser. Just saying it seems to work as designed. I don't believe it has anything to due with "old" and "floating point". FWIW, I mainly got the Platinum bundle years ago to be compatible with a friend I collaborate with—but he moved on to UA and the Waves plugins got little use (and now I have a UAD-2). However, I gained a little respect for usability a while back when I was watching CLA (or someone of similar stature, doesn't matter—yes, I know he usually shows off with his signature plugins, but I recall that it was him) mixing up some tracks quickly and throwing on RVox. I was a little incredulous that he'd pick that, but I put it up on my own vocal, and dam—I sounded good! With no fuss. Made me think about how much time I waste tweaking the latest greatest things. Do what you're essentially saying is that the plugin was designed by an incompetent and the company won't take responsibility? No. But apparently you wanted to say that. I'm not sure if you didn't like that I'm saying it's not simply clipping, and it's not because it's not written in floating point. Like I said, I don't care, I don't use de-essers (I only record me, I'm not a sibilant singer, I don't have a sibilant mic). But I'm an experienced plugin developer, so I'm lending my thoughts on what is or isn't wrong with it. But I'll take it further: I've got a vocal that's at a solid -12 dB, having been through an 1176 clone (hardware). I ran it to an aux, put +20 dB gain on it, into Waves De-esser, into -20 dB gain. It's not clipping. Now, if I want to run it up another 10 dB, it sounds like $#!+. And The iZotope Nectar de-esser doesn't. I don't see any "responsibility" that needs to be taken—if a company makes crap, they won't make money for long. They didn't design a non-linear plugin to be driven far beyond its expected limits, which is not quite a crime. I said "as designed", because there's more than one way to make a de-esser, and they way they did it assumes it's not going to see "over range". It behaves that same way that you might de-ess with an outboard compressor and filter, side-chained. And I suppose it didn't hurt that this came out back in the days of TDM, where over 0 dB was death. I'm not defending them, just telling people why it will be useless to tell Waves to fix the plugin. It's not a glitch in the code. If it does what you want, avoid sending it signals well above 0 dB. If not, use another one. PS—My tests used Digital Performer and Audio Units. |
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, you want a better deEsser. Always. Why would you NOT want them to improve it? But, if you have a closet/server full of client mix sessions that you need to be able to fully recall--(because why else are you mixing all digitally?)...the value is that I can move sessions from macs to PCs and back (obviously with the same DAW)--and Waves will recall exactly as it was from 25 years ago. I'd actually have a harder time NOW opening that old of a Cubase file. I couldn't, actually. Anyway--Waves is the only company I've used that is CONSISTENTLY ROCK SOLID with that. Another company, I stopped using their audio plug ins, because they change the engine and fucked me on some recalls. I had to do it by ear. That DAY, I uninstalled them so now I can see the dead stump if I open up one of those plugs. I meant to reinstall the old engine version...but...life is short.
, you want a better deEsser. Always. Why would you NOT want them to improve it? But, if you have a closet/server full of client mix sessions that you need to be able to fully recall--(because why else are you mixing all digitally?)...the value is that I can move sessions from macs to PCs and back (obviously with the same DAW)--and Waves will recall exactly as it was from 25 years ago. I'd actually have a harder time NOW opening that old of a Cubase file. I couldn't, actually. Anyway--Waves is the only company I've used that is CONSISTENTLY ROCK SOLID with that. Another company, I stopped using their audio plug ins, because they change the engine and fucked me on some recalls. I had to do it by ear. That DAY, I uninstalled them so now I can see the dead stump if I open up one of those plugs. I meant to reinstall the old engine version...but...life is short.