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Post by Ward on Dec 30, 2021 16:44:34 GMT -6
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Post by bgrotto on Dec 30, 2021 17:29:09 GMT -6
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2021 17:39:55 GMT -6
Oxide can’t shred but it sure as hell sheds!
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Post by jmoose on Dec 30, 2021 20:17:35 GMT -6
You know who you are. Singer songwriter comes in. Great song, might need a little add here and there. Singing is solid. Your job is to engineer produce and mix, play all missing instruments or hire what you need. In my case, I play all guitars keys bass mandolin percussion and sing all backing vocals usually (unless I need to add femvox to my own tenor parts). Always hire a drummer unless it's a heavy pop influence and I'm programming drums and using my own samples. So you're in the same boat. What are you charging to deliver it to the final mastering engineer? For me, ranges from $1000 - 1600 per single. I know that's not me. I don't take those kinds of gigs... too much hassle. Songwriter has a basic napkin sketch? Wants to hire all the players? Needs a lot of hand holding from the initial conversation through finished master? Yes done them. Yes also have more then a few in the "paid but incomplete & unreleased" pile as well... Vast majority of "songwriters" who found me, needed access to session players & all the other resources were incredibly green. Even if they had funds, and a few of them certainly did... they all needed an insane amount of hand holding & explanations at every single step. Like way more question & answer time then studio time. Anyway. The karaoke man changed my life. I'm still "for hire" but my days of operating a "for hire" studio and taking everything that comes through the door? Way over. One day, a very long time ago (2004?) I got a call from a guy who wanted to sing karaoke and have his voice on CD. I said there's a two hour minimum... but there's only 3 songs?! Gave him standard spiel about time time to setup mics, do a few takes... burn discs etc Karaoke man booked time, showed up at his given slot on a Tuesday afternoon with his buddy in tow. I've got a mic setup, reverb patched in... whopping 5 channels on a 40 channel Trident... ok lets do this! Karaoke man hands me his special CD I drop it in the player, ok we've got level its magic time! I was totally unprepared for what came next... Karaoke man completely lost his shit. Insane freakout. Where are the words?! I can't sing without the words! Full on panic attack. Apparently unknown to me karaoke discs have a special layer which isn't read by CD or DVD players which contain the lyrics in a "follow the bouncing ball" style... and without that? Was enough to throw this guy. I made a valiant attempt at getting lyrics displayed... tried the lounge DVD player... Windows PC? Web wasn't huge back then so it wasn't like he could just hop online to get the Billy Idol lyrics... After maybe 30 minutes it was all over. Mr karaoke admitted defeat and left with his tail between his legs but not before paying the two hour minimum. All I could think, after that episode is shit like this isn't why I got into the business of music. And maybe I should make some changes in career direction. Recording studio ain't nothing but a big empty space. If your a studio owner you don't make a dime until someone wants to use your space for something. Hopefully that something is recording music. And ideally music that you like or at least have some sort of opinion on. Otherwise that empty studio space? It'd be just as happy being a McDonalds or dry cleaner... or even yes, a proper guest bedroom. Something that the vast majority of people actually need.
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Post by drbill on Dec 30, 2021 21:00:23 GMT -6
Hahahaaaaa!!! I've got one too. Not a "Karaoke Man", but let's call him "Darkness Man". Back when I was starting out, and was chief engineer (totally unqualified) at a nice studio, I got a call. A guy wanted to record an album. Sweet I'm thinking. Could pan out to be a nice gig. I ask him when he wanted to do it, and he said "I can come in now". I said "now"?!?!? He said "yeah. It will only take an hour. I can be there by 5:00". I was fascinated, and didn't really believe him, but said "OK - it's 4:00 and I've got a 7:30 dinner date. I've got a couple of hours - let's make your album." I put up a mic while he was driving in. Yes, one mic. That was his request. Then I loaded a 2 track, and set it to 7.5 IPS so it would run close to an hour. He tuned his guitar (kinda) and requested the lights be turned out in the CRM AND Live room. I got a quick level, rolled tape, turned all lights out, and the yowling and howling began. I've never heard screeching so bad in my life, and believe me, I've heard some incredibly bad $#!@,,,,, After about 30 seconds, my partner and I sat down on the floor so none of the gear lights could highlight us....we were rolling and laughing hysterically and even and cried sometimes for the next 50 minutes or so. Guy eventually stopped and said "OK, that's it. That's the album"... I tried to pull a straight face as I turned all the lights back on. I rewound the tape, dude paid me, and that was it. Paid for my dinner that night. Worth the memories and the food I got out of it. It was at that EXACT moment that I knew I had almost certainly chosen the wrong "business" to pursue.... Alas, it was too late by then...... Thanks for the memories....I had pretty much erased that from my memory, but it was fun dredging it back up.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 30, 2021 21:39:07 GMT -6
I can only add that around here, self contained bands seem to be on the downside with a huge increase in people needing session players. This is the first year I’ve ever hired session players. I lost a 3rd record last year with a client who seemed totally happy because another producer approached them with a package including session players. NEVER has this come up before, though there’s certainly times most of a self contained band needed to be replaced.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 21:48:41 GMT -6
drbill , you would have loved some metal.. Like such classics as a quintessential album of pig noises. When one of them went mad on a triangle during a breakdown I lost my composure and tears of laughter formed like a winter dew. Good sports though, they found it equally as funny. bgrotto, so the rich, mad and the famous then? Sounds like a potential film. People like yourself with a grand rep will never struggle to get work, I'm sure Abbey Road and CLA are well booked plus a few old acquaintances at Sony seem to be extremely busy. Unfortunately if you're outside of that closed circle things become infinitely more difficult and as Monkey mentioned location has a lot to do with it. There was a metal / rock resurgence (mainly influenced by the US) in the early 00's and when that ended so did the live venue's (noise regs and smoking bans had some part to play in it, Covid finished off any stragglers). Unless you're a very famous niche or signed mega act you can forget about playing live, there's no semi-pro circle in this country that I'm aware of and it seems to be a reoccurring theme throughout a lot of places in Europe. There's the odd breakout pop act or bands with a dedicated following who've been going for decades but apart from that? Weirdly it still seems to be the odd metal band doing okay but it's a very limited market.. From a studio's standpoint no matter how talented you are a day job is still required because the market here is dead. So, I'm glad there's somewhere on this planet where music is still a viable form of income in a professional sense.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,983
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2021 21:58:07 GMT -6
I can only add that around here, self contained bands seem to be on the downside with a huge increase in people needing session players. This is the first year I’ve ever hired session players. I lost a 3rd record last year with a client who seemed totally happy because another producer approached them with a package including session players. NEVER has this come up before, though there’s certainly times most of a self contained band needed to be replaced. Hey Doug I think the need for session players is an out growth of COVID.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,983
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2021 21:59:25 GMT -6
Hahahaaaaa!!! I've got one too. Not a "Karaoke Man", but let's call him "Darkness Man". Back when I was starting out, and was chief engineer (totally unqualified) at a nice studio, I got a call. A guy wanted to record an album. Sweet I'm thinking. Could pan out to be a nice gig. I ask him when he wanted to do it, and he said "I can come in now". I said "now"?!?!? He said "yeah. It will only take an hour. I can be there by 5:00". I was fascinated, and didn't really believe him, but said "OK - it's 4:00 and I've got a 7:30 dinner date. I've got a couple of hours - let's make your album." I put up a mic while he was driving in. Yes, one mic. That was his request. Then I loaded a 2 track, and set it to 7.5 IPS so it would run close to an hour. He tuned his guitar (kinda) and requested the lights be turned out in the CRM AND Live room. I got a quick level, rolled tape, turned all lights out, and the yowling and howling began. I've never heard screeching so bad in my life, and believe me, I've heard some incredibly bad $#!@,,,,, After about 30 seconds, my partner and I sat down on the floor so none of the gear lights could highlight us....we were rolling and laughing hysterically and even and cried sometimes for the next 50 minutes or so. Guy eventually stopped and said "OK, that's it. That's the album"... I tried to pull a straight face as I turned all the lights back on. I rewound the tape, dude paid me, and that was it. Paid for my dinner that night. Worth the memories and the food I got out of it. It was at that EXACT moment that I knew I had almost certainly chosen the wrong "business" to pursue.... Alas, it was too late by then...... Thanks for the memories....I had pretty much erased that from my memory, but it was fun dredging it back up. Wait Bro, your telling me there was life before Disney? I ask as my Uhber drives past Walt’s original studio.
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Post by bgrotto on Dec 30, 2021 22:47:23 GMT -6
drbill , you would have loved some metal.. Like such classics as a quintessential album of pig noises. When one of them went mad on a triangle during a breakdown I lost my composure and tears of laughter formed like a winter dew. Good sports though, they found it equally as funny. bgrotto , so the rich, mad and the famous then? Sounds like a potential film. People like yourself with a grand rep will never struggle to get work, I'm sure Abbey Road and CLA are well booked plus a few old acquaintances at Sony seem to be extremely busy. Unfortunately if you're outside of that closed circle things become infinitely more difficult and as Monkey mentioned location has a lot to do with it. There was a metal / rock resurgence (mainly influenced by the US) in the early 00's and when that ended so did the live venue's (noise regs and smoking bans had some part to play in it, Covid finished off any stragglers). Unless you're a very famous niche or signed mega act you can forget about playing live, there's no semi-pro circle in this country that I'm aware of and it seems to be a reoccurring theme throughout a lot of places in Europe. There's the odd breakout pop act or bands with a dedicated following who've been going for decades but apart from that? Weirdly it still seems to be the odd metal band doing okay but it's a very limited market.. From a studio's standpoint no matter how talented you are a day job is still required because the market here is dead. So, I'm glad there's somewhere on this planet where music is still a viable form of income in a professional sense. I played for a few years not-too-long-ago in an old school hardcore band (not really my thing these days, but i produced a record for them and then they fired the drummer with a tour booked and...guess who knew all the new material 🤣). Anywho, we cleaned up in Europe. At the time, the exchange rate was a lot more favorable, so a 3-4 week tour overseas would yield a pretty hefty payday for us. I have a lot of friends from those years who still do the Europe circuit and make a good chunk of money doing a couple 4-weekers a year, plus the occasional quickie fly-out for one-offs or festival gigs. Pretty niche, to be sure, but the punk / hardcore / metal circuit is a fairly profitable one out your way. (incidentally that's a genre that still sells records [vinyl mostly] and lots and lots of merch) Meanwhile, this same band i was in never toured the US. We'd do fly-outs for one-offs, and some fest stuff, but touring here was a non-starter. Zero dollars to be made. Back to the point though, i'm hardly one with a "grand rep". I've basically been clawing my way up the slippery ladder for the past fifteen years. The hours are still nuts (well more than 40 a week, and you shoulda seen what i was doing when i was still in my 20s and early 30s...), but luckily, I mostly dig the work. Plus, it beats flipping burgers, which is about the only other thing i'm probably qualified for. OK...I can also make coffee (those intern years paid off i guess...). Anywho, point being, I'm still of the mind that hard work and a stupid work ethic and maybe a little bit of luck can still bear fruit. Hell...i have a couple interns-turned-assistants who've proven me right when they skip town and get their own careers up-and-running after school. I'm pretty cynical overall, and I think there's an impending expiration date on this current version of the music industry, but I still think there are jobs to be had if you're fucking insane and -- yes -- if you're in the right location (at the right time).
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Post by jmoose on Dec 31, 2021 15:38:16 GMT -6
I can only add that around here, self contained bands seem to be on the downside with a huge increase in people needing session players. This is the first year I’ve ever hired session players. I lost a 3rd record last year with a client who seemed totally happy because another producer approached them with a package including session players. NEVER has this come up before, though there’s certainly times most of a self contained band needed to be replaced. I've been hiring session cats for years. But absolutely, at least here in north jersey NYC suburb the dynamic has shifted over the last handful of years. Some of that I think is due to available outlets for shows. Most of the "band" clubs & even hole in the wall joints have closed and what's left for live music is the coffeehouse/wine tasting happy hours dominated by acoustic duo's & trios. Just a theory... Anyway. Those songwriter types come through and don't need session players like a band typically does... Where we hire a drummer or maybe they need a kick ass B3 on a song or two. The songwriter types, at least here seem to approach the studio and need an entire band put around them. Which is what I think the original question was about? That's nothing entirely new. Happens in Nashville everyday for demos. But I think some people and maybe even locations are more inclined and geared towards that kind of work. I certainly don't go after those kinds of projects anymore. Lost my ass on them too many times. Had one maybe 5 years ago? Guy was a sideman in a popular local band & wanted to break away so we set out on recording an EP. Total death march. Five songs and a budget for 10-15 days. Among other things we burned through 4 drummers. First drummer was a friend the artist brought in. Said to be a percussion major in college so high hopes? When I got him on the phone to go over the plan I asked if he wanted to bring a kit or use mine... he goes I haven't played kit in a while so yours is probably in better shape. All uphill from there. In 2nd gear no less. And that's been the rub. Some of these people... they want to be the next Jeff Buckley or Taylor Swift and make a record on that level but they don't know how. And that's fine! Not a problem! That's why they pay us! But with no real studio experience they want to bring in their friends & have them play on the record... which, that's not always a great decision. And where its been a problem in the studio... meltdown after meltdown? If we're using session players and I've got "my team" together? I can coach, direct traffic and control the time vs costs. If I'm using "friends of the artist" who are essentially strangers? All that control is gone. The lack of control over musical direction & communication directly impacts everything else... Now we're over time & over budget because nobody realized that the drummer friend wasn't experienced. Most of us know this but the studio is NOT the time to find out the player we called lacks experience and needs to do 40 takes instead of 4. Not an isolated experience there. Unfortunately.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 31, 2021 17:14:29 GMT -6
Haha!!!  Ward and I got this Eric, but only cause we're old and have leadered countless reels of tape.  I wonder how many other "pro-tape, but never leadered a reel of tape" guys will read that and it will go right over their heads.  Good one Eric!!! Yeah Bill we are old as oxide ( rust, tape humor), but try explaining to the 20 something with man bun and a beanie behind the counter at the used record store / highend stereo shop, that no you could care less about what’s on the TDK 7in reel of great tape ( it isn’t) your buying the stupid thing because it’s cheaper than a blank reel. Even on the SOTA soon to be upgraded to a SOTA Sapphire Vacuum with an ET2 air bearing linear arm with a Dennon DL103R vinyl is a pretty crappy format! The thing is a friend turned me on to the “Tape Project” great some nice re real sea at 15ips on 1/4in 1/2 track IEC, cool , wait $450 a tape? Are you kidding me!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 31, 2021 20:14:39 GMT -6
I do a decent amount of stuff like this. I have a handful of decent players that I bring in for projects, when needed. I'm also a drummer and bassist and play on a lot of tracks. No upcharge when I'm playing. I'm included in the rate, but I'm playing on the clock when the musicians are in studio with me.
I book either 5 or 10 hour blocks (5 on weeknights, 7-midnight) or 10 on weekends. If you only want an hour, you pay the 5 hour rate, otherwise it's not worth my time to drive to the studio. Plus, nothing takes 1 hour. Ever.
Session musicians set their own rate with the artist and artist pays them direct. I've seen people pay anywhere from gas money to $350 per song for a session cat.
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2022 13:01:17 GMT -6
as expected, this thread derailed and devolved.
One small request?
KEEP IT UP!! The stories have me in stitches!!
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Post by jmoose on Jan 2, 2022 14:13:38 GMT -6
as expected, this thread derailed and devolved. One small request? KEEP IT UP!! The stories have me in stitches!! When I have some time the tale of "blues tourettes" is pretty solid... I might even have the rough mix buried somewhere. It was epic. Session guitarist gone wild. Not my guy.
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