|
Post by Ward on Dec 28, 2021 15:28:57 GMT -6
You know who you are.
Singer songwriter comes in. Great song, might need a little add here and there. Singing is solid.
Your job is to engineer produce and mix, play all missing instruments or hire what you need.
In my case, I play all guitars keys bass mandolin percussion and sing all backing vocals usually (unless I need to add femvox to my own tenor parts). Always hire a drummer unless it's a heavy pop influence and I'm programming drums and using my own samples.
So you're in the same boat. What are you charging to deliver it to the final mastering engineer?
For me, ranges from $1000 - 1600 per single.
What's your price range? How do you structure your pricing?
Being at the tail-end of a world-wide economic upheaval, things are a little strained and it doesn't hurt to survey {/typo} the crowd.
Thanks in advance!
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Dec 28, 2021 15:42:16 GMT -6
1000 is my rate but that scares away about 99% of singer songwriters. I’ve been trying a new approach where I just tell them don’t worry about money up front. Just come in and let’s get working and see if we vibe together. 4-5 hours later, they pay me for my time (maybe 200 bucks), and they’re usually excited to do more work after that. If I bill them per session it usually comes out more than 1000, but they’re usually more interested in working that way.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Dec 28, 2021 15:48:47 GMT -6
1000 is my rate but that scares away about 99% of singer songwriters. I’ve been trying a new approach where I just tell them don’t worry about money up front. Just come in and let’s get working and see if we vibe together. 4-5 hours later, they pay me for my time (maybe 200 bucks), and they’re usually excited to do more work after that. If I bill them per session it usually comes out more than 1000, but they’re usually more interested in working that way. I don’t follow the math— a full session is $1000, so maybe 100/hr? But they’re getting 4-5 hours for $200? EDIT: sorry nevermind, I missed Ward's post above yours.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Dec 28, 2021 15:54:15 GMT -6
Best I've been able to get is around 300$ a song, which is about 10 hours worth of work for the first song, and significantly less for subsequent songs since I'll be using the same setup for each song after. I don't play on things usually either. If I do, that's extra. All in generally includes doing drums/bass/rhythm guitar all at once using sims to get the performance. I then do edits and batch samples on drums and reamp the guitars or use the sim tracks. Overdubs and vocals are next. I try to get them to do full takes and then just cut/paste sections together rather than do achingly detailed punches. I've gotten pretty good at flowing with *my* work, it's really up to the band at that point.
NO self-financed singer-songwriter is paying 1K$ around here. There's just too many bedroom studios and too many "producers" here in the ATL to charge that much. I know folks keep telling me that quality means something, but on the ground here it means nothing. Folks will bounce around 4 "free" sessions to get mediocre results before they pay my measly 300$ a song.. Trust me, I get the tracks from those sessions and people asking me if they can use them and get a discount on the rest "since we're not recording those parts".
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Dec 28, 2021 16:31:05 GMT -6
Is that US or CA $, Ward?
I'm working on a 7 song project for a singer/songwriter, hiring 6 other musicians to fill it out, no singers, budget is $3k5, prob be close to that in reality at my regular hourly plus the additions. Overdubs are minimal, not a big build out. Drummer the most expensive part at $400US/day.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Dec 28, 2021 18:15:05 GMT -6
1000 is my rate but that scares away about 99% of singer songwriters. I’ve been trying a new approach where I just tell them don’t worry about money up front. Just come in and let’s get working and see if we vibe together. 4-5 hours later, they pay me for my time (maybe 200 bucks), and they’re usually excited to do more work after that. If I bill them per session it usually comes out more than 1000, but they’re usually more interested in working that way. I don’t follow the math— a full session is $1000, so maybe 100/hr? But they’re getting 4-5 hours for $200? EDIT: sorry nevermind, I missed Ward's post above yours. Yeah, no way I’m finishing a full song in 4-5 hours. Looking at several of those sessions.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Dec 28, 2021 19:10:18 GMT -6
I figure 40 hours start to finish per song. If it’s a good song that deserves it, why not?
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Dec 28, 2021 20:02:47 GMT -6
I charge 50 an hour 4 hours min.
Even that scares most off.
It’s next to impossible to quote per song ….as it depends so heavily on the talent and expectations of the client.
If I have to ,….I say 500 per song including 5 CDs with basic artwork. That scares the remaining ones away.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Dec 28, 2021 20:05:29 GMT -6
Nobody seems to want to pay me fairly so I don't work for the public at all. Just gave up on it. I'm with svart on this one. I'm mixing and possibly mastering a 4 song project right now for free, but it's for a close friend. I just wanted to grease the wheels and do something for someone, use the skills. On something other than my own music.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Dec 28, 2021 21:08:27 GMT -6
Right now I’m getting $1000 - $1500 for a song, but that’s split between me and my studio partner. He plays drums, I play bass, we both play guitar and keys. If we’re recording at my home studio that cost is baked into the price. Any days we need to book a bigger studio (for drums etc) is charged extra for that day rate.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Dec 28, 2021 21:10:46 GMT -6
Nobody seems to want to pay me fairly so I don't work for the public at all. Just gave up on it. I'm with svart on this one. I'm mixing and possibly mastering a 4 song project right now for free, but it's for a close friend. I just wanted to grease the wheels and do something for someone, use the skills. On something other than my own music. Not to get too far off topic but this not being paid fairly thing is happening everywhere. I just resigned from the school district I have worked for the past four and a half years. The district and campus admin assumed that that I was probably “financially insecure” and therefore they could keep dumping extra work on me outside of my job description. Each time I did extra, it became the new expectation. I literally told HR in my exit interview that it was not my responsibility to cover for the district’s inability to hire and retain employees. I also told them that I could wade out a change in jobs or careers for at least 10 months without even touching any retirement savings. I told them that it was shameful to try to bully, pressure or guilt teachers and staff because they felt trapped in a position. They fucked around and found out with me.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 28, 2021 21:33:05 GMT -6
Professionals expect to pay fairly, and are usually quite good about it. It's always hourly. Never by project. I never have to say a second thing about it. They ask my hourly rate, or don't even bother to ask, and we get going.....
For the "artist / songwriter" types Ward mentioned : Hourly as well. Then I explain to them why. Then I tell them they can't afford my hourly rate. That usually takes care of things as most are looking for an option outside of recording at their cousin's for free or in their bedroom. I rarely do outside work anymore. Not worth the hassle or aggravation. Even hourly is not enough anymore - I'd much rather work for the option of future royalties over a measly hourly rate. The cheaper you work for, the more constraints and aggravations the project will bring. Should be the opposite, but 35+ years has shown this is not the case. The cheap projects are always the most difficult, and heartbreaking.
H
O
U
R
L
Y
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ps - freebie passion projects for friends are a different story - but that's not the topic of this thread,,,,,,,,,
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 28, 2021 21:56:52 GMT -6
$50 an hour. If you need a studio that’s on you too.
Too many times I’ve gotten burned by the singer songwriter that is never happy and needs to do more and more and more etc etc and it’s never actually better. Just a different version of not as good as they think they are.
So, I’ll work on the same vocal take and meh guitar playing for as long as you can stand it. For $50 an hour
Honestly it doesn’t come to that much anymore. That price is just high enough to scare away the riff raff and to anybody serious it seems like a deal to them. So works in my favor both ways.
If I’m playing instruments, producing, or involved in the writing / scoring process that number goes up.
Works for me 🤷🏻♂️
|
|
|
Post by christophert on Dec 28, 2021 22:11:42 GMT -6
$60-$70 p/h - and I work super fast. I also don't get involved with playing any parts, get the artists to bring in their own players and take it live (usually doing guide vocals). $300 will get them a really great quality recording - that will blow away all "bedroom / garage productions" The more live it is - the better the outcome, and the quicker it gets done - the more value for the client. It also helps to have a large array of excellent outboard and mics. IE: none of the Warm Audio / Stam / Klark Teknik / _ _ _ _ clones / Behringer headphone amps that are everywhere. (except AudioScape) Differentiate With over 60,000 tracks being uploaded PER DAY to Spotify - chasing "success" is an illusion. I believe I can help people record, get a great sound, have a inspiring time + get good results < Job Finished If I don't really vibe on what they are attempting to do - I pass it to another engineer / assistant to do in my studio (and go fishing)
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 28, 2021 22:41:40 GMT -6
it doesn't hurt to surgery the crowd. Ouch. Actually, that sounds like it's going to hurt Ward........
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 28, 2021 23:06:00 GMT -6
In a way, I'm not open to the public. I'm a singer/songwriter/producer. I do some projects with musician friends.
For just mixing, $50 hour. For me doing anything else, like playing, arranging, recording, producing.. $100 hour. On occasion I'll mix a song for a flat rate of $300, but usually there's more than one and I can use a template.
|
|
|
Post by javamad on Dec 29, 2021 4:01:33 GMT -6
I charge €40/hour no matter what I’m doing. They are paying for the studio and me.
If they are there singing and playing and I’m dngineering or they have gone home and I am adding some bass, guitar or whatever. I just calculate the hours and invoice them.
When someone comes in with a multi song project looking to lock in a fixed price I say no … I try to encourage they do a first session to see just how fast we can work … if they don’t want to so be it. I just can’t see myself being at the mercy of some under-rehearsed kid or someone changing their mind continuosly on my dime. I have plenty of my own songs to waste my time and money on :-D
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Dec 29, 2021 5:34:13 GMT -6
My only issue with the hourly thing is this...last year I got a call from a woman who wanted to take these very rough song ideas, basically voice memos, and turn them into a fully produced record. She had heard some of my work, and decided that was the sound she wanted. This was in the think of early covid and she basically wanted to do everything remote. She wanted me to arrange and produce the tracks, and she would get her home studio together and send me vocals. I knew not having her in person and trying to bill her an hourly rate was going to be weird because I knew if I was like, “Hey, I spent 7 hours working on your stuff today, please send me 350 dollars.” Was going to get weird as weeks and time rolled on. So I decided to write up a proposal that would be financially viable for me, even if the project got in the weeds a bit. Basically $1000 per song. Guess what happened....never heard from her again. As far as I know she hasn’t done anything with the music either. After that I kind of went the route Monkey said. I’ll work on my own projects because that’s what I like doing anyway, and if something comes my way, I’m cool to help, but I’m not trying to run a business anymore. The studio isn’t my day job, so I can afford that luxury, but maybe that’s why people take issue actually paying me for my work? I dunno. Still happy to mix a project for a friend or record someone for fun, but as far as producing full recordings for people...I just can’t seem to find anyone who’s actually willing to pay me what my time is worth at the end of the day.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Dec 29, 2021 7:08:24 GMT -6
These posts are the reason I stopped recording Joe public for money, it's just not worth it. As a creative you never get paid properly for all the hours you actually put in.
I did work for record companies in the early 90's (when there was money in the industry washing about for artist development) and that did pay extremely well.
Perhaps when I semi-retire I'll go back to it when I can very carefully pick projects I can believe in artistically and the money is secondary.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Dec 29, 2021 8:15:49 GMT -6
Nobody seems to want to pay me fairly so I don't work for the public at all. Just gave up on it. I'm with svart on this one. I'm mixing and possibly mastering a 4 song project right now for free, but it's for a close friend. I just wanted to grease the wheels and do something for someone, use the skills. On something other than my own music. Not to get too far off topic but this not being paid fairly thing is happening everywhere. I just resigned from the school district I have worked for the past four and a half years. The district and campus admin assumed that that I was probably “financially insecure” and therefore they could keep dumping extra work on me outside of my job description. Each time I did extra, it became the new expectation. I literally told HR in my exit interview that it was not my responsibility to cover for the district’s inability to hire and retain employees. I also told them that I could wade out a change in jobs or careers for at least 10 months without even touching any retirement savings. I told them that it was shameful to try to bully, pressure or guilt teachers and staff because they felt trapped in a position. They fucked around and found out with me. I have a lot of respect for teachers, wow what a job, I don't think teachers have ever been paid fairly. I've been hearing this for my whole life.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Dec 29, 2021 8:18:21 GMT -6
My only issue with the hourly thing is this...last year I got a call from a woman who wanted to take these very rough song ideas, basically voice memos, and turn them into a fully produced record. She had heard some of my work, and decided that was the sound she wanted. This was in the think of early covid and she basically wanted to do everything remote. She wanted me to arrange and produce the tracks, and she would get her home studio together and send me vocals. I knew not having her in person and trying to bill her an hourly rate was going to be weird because I knew if I was like, “Hey, I spent 7 hours working on your stuff today, please send me 350 dollars.” Was going to get weird as weeks and time rolled on. So I decided to write up a proposal that would be financially viable for me, even if the project got in the weeds a bit. Basically $1000 per song. Guess what happened....never heard from her again. As far as I know she hasn’t done anything with the music either. After that I kind of went the route Monkey said. I’ll work on my own projects because that’s what I like doing anyway, and if something comes my way, I’m cool to help, but I’m not trying to run a business anymore. The studio isn’t my day job, so I can afford that luxury, but maybe that’s why people take issue actually paying me for my work? I dunno. Still happy to mix a project for a friend or record someone for fun, but as far as producing full recordings for people...I just can’t seem to find anyone who’s actually willing to pay me what my time is worth at the end of the day. My story in a nutshell. I get emails and such or I'll talk to bands in person and one of the first things they always ask is "how much to record a few songs?". I tried avoiding the money discussion as the first talking point for years. It never worked. No matter how I tried to steer the conversations, they always asked about money. A lot got annoyed that I would try to avoid telling them and I think I lost some customers simply because I didn't want the discussion to be about money from the outset. I think they thought I was trying to bamboozle them or something. In any case, a good 70% of people I talk to about the studio end the discussion when I mention the prices and I never hear from them again. Maybe 50% of those will mention how they know someone else with a studio that either charges extremely low rates or will do it for free. I think they want me to offer similar rates, but I won't. Only time I'll reduce the rates from what I have now is when they do larger sessions or we agree on ways to reduce the amount of work or time. As I've mentioned before here, I've had bands that I've worked with be really happy with the work we've done and then go somewhere else on their next album/song simply because they got a better price. A couple have even told me that they got a worse result, but it doesn't seem to matter to them because the cost is KING to folks who aren't making money in music.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Dec 29, 2021 8:23:35 GMT -6
Ps - freebie passion projects for friends are a different story - but that's not the topic of this thread,,,,,,,,, Did you miss the first part of my post that was directly "on topic?" LOL. Can't sneak anything by you. ;-D
|
|
|
Post by sean on Dec 29, 2021 8:25:26 GMT -6
I've given up on per song rates, even when mixing, and I'm only charging a day rate. It's honestly more for scheduling, because it's too easy for me to push those "I'll mix these when I have free time" projects because I don't really have "free time" and before you know it it's been 3 months and I haven't even downloaded the tracks.
Hourly never made sense to me either, because situations like when the client says they "only needs a couple hours to do vocals" or whatever it's not like I can schedule anything else in the studio that day because it ALWAYS takes longer than you think it will.
So, I'd recommend charging whatever you need to make for yourself and your studio for a 8 to 10 hour day. That rate is different for everyone.
But, if you are looking for comparisons, which I’m assuming you are to find out if you are charging enough or not, I have 3 Grammys next to my WiFi router and recorded and mixed 5 nominees in 5 different genres this year (if that sounds like bragging it’s not intentional saying that shit out loud makes me uncomfortable), and my day rate for engineering or mixing ranges from $300 to $500 a day (not including the studio).
For a musician, $500 for an 8 hour day will get you just about any player you want in Nashville. And you can definitely get amazing players for even less. Especially if you pay cash. If it’s a union session it depends on the scale
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Dec 29, 2021 8:36:12 GMT -6
I have decided to treat my response to not hearing back after quoting price as paranoia. So often it’s actually some other personal wishy-wash in the client, and not about me or price. If the price is the put-off, it’s acting as gatekeeper. Lately there’s been a glut of underprepared types with plenty of money - I’d really rather not have a bunch of that, but the money isn’t the obstacle. Point is you never know who has the money and is happy to spend it. Being open to finding them, and being happy joining their pursuit, is the trick.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 29, 2021 9:31:13 GMT -6
Ps - freebie passion projects for friends are a different story - but that's not the topic of this thread,,,,,,,,, Did you miss the first part of my post that was directly "on topic?" LOL. Can't sneak anything by you. ;-D ?? Not sure. But paid projects vs. fun projects are two different topics IMO. We all got into this for the "fun" right? I wish I had more time for those, and actually, it's one of my new years resolutions to do more of them if the opportunity presents. Cheers, bp
|
|