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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 3, 2021 10:01:04 GMT -6
I’m recording a singer songwriter tomorrow, just vocals and acoustic. The studio I’ll be at has an an Echo Plate II, I’ve used it before (on drums) but I feel like my results were hit or miss. During one drum session the midrangey quality of the echo plate sat perfect in the mix, but didn’t sound so great in solo. On my second drum session it was too harsh, but the drummer had some harsh sounding cymbals and was pretty heavy handed on them.
I’m wondering, is there a “trick” or best practice when using a real plate or the Echo Plate in particular? Is anyone processing the stereo return from the reverb through line amps, compressors etc? Or are you guys just processing the reverb during mix time as usual?
Thanks
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 3, 2021 10:39:43 GMT -6
Yes.
You EQ the send and the return. Cut out anything before it hits the plate that you don't want to hit it. So if you did a full drum kit, I'd be filtering out the kick a lot and shelving the cymbals quite a bit to make it focus on the snares and toms more.
Vocals the same, pick your area that you want to emphasize.
Then on the return, you want to take what you get back and shape it to fit the mix.
I will say, I'd never send a full drum kit. Only the snare usually and some of the toms. Cymabals tend to be too loud and bright already for a plate IMO.
I also usually did a dual send. So if you have a patch bay Id use a mult on the patch bay so that on the console I'd use Aux 1 and Aux 2 as my reverb sends. But on Aux 2 I'd put a delay unit like a lexicon PCM41 or 42 with around 100-175ms on it depending on the tune. So then on the snare Aux 1 is instant verb and Aux 2 has predelay. If you balance this right you'd end up with a lower level on Aux 1 than 2 so you get ka-KA! and match it to the tempo. The output of the Aux 1 and 2 goes into the mult and the input of the plate goes into it. I'd then take the patch from the mult and feed it to an EQ, doesn't matter much what it is, but something that you can filter and shape the input to the plate. Shape it. Then the stereo return comes back on the console. Use the console EQ to shape it again and faders to balance.
That's how I always did plates. And if done well you can get some really great results. Room like even.
I personally never did compression on a plate or distortion effects, but I'm sure there are some cool results with doing that.
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 3, 2021 10:51:15 GMT -6
Yes. You EQ the send and the return. Cut out anything before it hits the plate that you don't want to hit it. So if you did a full drum kit, I'd be filtering out the kick a lot and shelving the cymbals quite a bit to make it focus on the snares and toms more. Vocals the same, pick your area that you want to emphasize. Then on the return, you want to take what you get back and shape it to fit the mix. I will say, I'd never send a full drum kit. Only the snare usually and some of the toms. Cymabals tend to be too loud and bright already for a plate IMO. I also usually did a dual send. So if you have a patch bay Id use a mult on the patch bay so that on the console I'd use Aux 1 and Aux 2 as my reverb sends. But on Aux 2 I'd put a delay unit like a lexicon PCM41 or 42 with around 100-175ms on it depending on the tune. So then on the snare Aux 1 is instant verb and Aux 2 has predelay. If you balance this right you'd end up with a lower level on Aux 1 than 2 so you get ka-KA! and match it to the tempo. The output of the Aux 1 and 2 goes into the mult and the input of the plate goes into it. I'd then take the patch from the mult and feed it to an EQ, doesn't matter much what it is, but something that you can filter and shape the input to the plate. Shape it. Then the stereo return comes back on the console. Use the console EQ to shape it again and faders to balance. That's how I always did plates. And if done well you can get some really great results. Room like even. I personally never did compression on a plate or distortion effects, but I'm sure there are some cool results with doing that. Thanks! That’s exactly what I needed. In the past I’d just send the snare through it and then just deal with it in the mix. This time I’ll try eq going into like you said. I’ll have a pair of CAPI Lc53’s, Dakings, and some 1084’s…my first thought is to reach for the 1084’s and use the high/low cut filters to gentle tame the high end and low end. |
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Post by EmRR on Nov 3, 2021 11:51:39 GMT -6
I have a I and a III, the biggest and smallest. I rarely ever put drums in them. I rarely EQ specifically for the plate, but no reason not to, and yes a filter set could be useful. De-esser or high frequency limiter too. The III has some basic EQ on it, the I does not, I can't remember if the II does or not.
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Post by bgrotto on Nov 3, 2021 11:59:09 GMT -6
Yep, pretty classic move is HP and LP the send to the plate, then filter the return again (esp on a 140 or other noise-maker).
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 3, 2021 14:59:43 GMT -6
Yes. You EQ the send and the return. Cut out anything before it hits the plate that you don't want to hit it. So if you did a full drum kit, I'd be filtering out the kick a lot and shelving the cymbals quite a bit to make it focus on the snares and toms more. Vocals the same, pick your area that you want to emphasize. Then on the return, you want to take what you get back and shape it to fit the mix. I will say, I'd never send a full drum kit. Only the snare usually and some of the toms. Cymabals tend to be too loud and bright already for a plate IMO. I also usually did a dual send. So if you have a patch bay Id use a mult on the patch bay so that on the console I'd use Aux 1 and Aux 2 as my reverb sends. But on Aux 2 I'd put a delay unit like a lexicon PCM41 or 42 with around 100-175ms on it depending on the tune. So then on the snare Aux 1 is instant verb and Aux 2 has predelay. If you balance this right you'd end up with a lower level on Aux 1 than 2 so you get ka-KA! and match it to the tempo. The output of the Aux 1 and 2 goes into the mult and the input of the plate goes into it. I'd then take the patch from the mult and feed it to an EQ, doesn't matter much what it is, but something that you can filter and shape the input to the plate. Shape it. Then the stereo return comes back on the console. Use the console EQ to shape it again and faders to balance. That's how I always did plates. And if done well you can get some really great results. Room like even. I personally never did compression on a plate or distortion effects, but I'm sure there are some cool results with doing that. Thanks! That’s exactly what I needed. In the past I’d just send the snare through it and then just deal with it in the mix. This time I’ll try eq going into like you said. I’ll have a pair of CAPI Lc53’s, Dakings, and some 1084’s…my first thought is to reach for the 1084’s and use the high/low cut filters to gentle tame the high end and low end. yeah definitely make it fit how you want. just for an example, here is a classical guitar demo I did. This is an EMT140 plate adding the sound of the room. The studio is very dead. www.dropbox.com/s/s7byfgab3s3zfgt/Lagoya.wav?dl=0Doesn't sound like a plate at all I think, more of a room. Can't remember what I did to the plate but it's been heavily EQed on the send and return I'm sure. This is how I'd treat it in general, make it feel like a space, then send what i wanted to do. usually vocals, bit of snare, and few other key things so they all sounded like in the same room. I'll look through my archives to see if i have anything else that could show what I mean. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 3, 2021 15:27:06 GMT -6
Thanks! That’s exactly what I needed. In the past I’d just send the snare through it and then just deal with it in the mix. This time I’ll try eq going into like you said. I’ll have a pair of CAPI Lc53’s, Dakings, and some 1084’s…my first thought is to reach for the 1084’s and use the high/low cut filters to gentle tame the high end and low end. yeah definitely make it fit how you want. just for an example, here is a classical guitar demo I did. This is an EMT140 plate adding the sound of the room. The studio is very dead. www.dropbox.com/s/s7byfgab3s3zfgt/Lagoya.wav?dl=0Doesn't sound like a plate at all I think, more of a room. Can't remember what I did to the plate but it's been heavily EQed on the send and return I'm sure. This is how I'd treat it in general, make it feel like a space, then send what i wanted to do. usually vocals, bit of snare, and few other key things so they all sounded like in the same room. I'll look through my archives to see if i have anything else that could show what I mean. Nice! Nice sounding ambience. Thanks man. Yeah I’m probably mind fucking myself for no reason. Heavily eq-ing the send/return is how I’d treat every reverb in the DAW. I was worried I was missing some magic sauce secret trick specific to real plate verbs but I guess the approach is the same. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 3, 2021 15:49:56 GMT -6
yeah definitely make it fit how you want. just for an example, here is a classical guitar demo I did. This is an EMT140 plate adding the sound of the room. The studio is very dead. www.dropbox.com/s/s7byfgab3s3zfgt/Lagoya.wav?dl=0Doesn't sound like a plate at all I think, more of a room. Can't remember what I did to the plate but it's been heavily EQed on the send and return I'm sure. This is how I'd treat it in general, make it feel like a space, then send what i wanted to do. usually vocals, bit of snare, and few other key things so they all sounded like in the same room. I'll look through my archives to see if i have anything else that could show what I mean. Nice! Nice soundi mmf ambience. Thanks man. Yeah I’m probably mind fucking myself for no reason. Heavily eq-ing the send/return is how I’d treat every reverb in the DAW. I was worried I was missing some magic sauce secret trick specific to real plate verbs but I guess the approach is the same. There is magic there! I long for a real plate. I hope to have an Echo Plate II which I thought was the larger one than the Echo I EMRr says differently and actually owns them haha either way, nothing sounds like the real thing IMO. So have fun and let us know how it goes. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 3, 2021 16:11:23 GMT -6
I will, I’ll post something when the song is mixed.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Nov 3, 2021 17:27:05 GMT -6
Thanks! That’s exactly what I needed. In the past I’d just send the snare through it and then just deal with it in the mix. This time I’ll try eq going into like you said. I’ll have a pair of CAPI Lc53’s, Dakings, and some 1084’s…my first thought is to reach for the 1084’s and use the high/low cut filters to gentle tame the high end and low end. yeah definitely make it fit how you want. just for an example, here is a classical guitar demo I did. This is an EMT140 plate adding the sound of the room. The studio is very dead. www.dropbox.com/s/s7byfgab3s3zfgt/Lagoya.wav?dl=0Doesn't sound like a plate at all I think, more of a room. Can't remember what I did to the plate but it's been heavily EQed on the send and return I'm sure. This is how I'd treat it in general, make it feel like a space, then send what i wanted to do. usually vocals, bit of snare, and few other key things so they all sounded like in the same room. I'll look through my archives to see if i have anything else that could show what I mean. Love the tone and ambience of your Lagoya classical guitar recording Blackdawg - haunting! I also found it reminiscent of the music from The Third Man (which is strange, since that was played on a zither). Martin |
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Post by bossanova on Nov 3, 2021 18:31:40 GMT -6
I know most of these are left over from the tape and vinyl era, and don't come from my own first-hand experience, but I know they were also certain tricks for getting a given sound out of a plate.
Steve Hoffman said once that one of the secrets to Gold Star's reverb was to actually boost the lows on the return. (I need to go back and look that one up.)
I know Bob O has said that engineers would often boost the highs on the send, even if they were being cut on the return.
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Post by delcampo on Nov 4, 2021 8:16:52 GMT -6
Having an Ecoplate II here I can say that tuning can really make or break my results. I put quite a bit into refurbing it & getting into a zone I like. (Jim Williams did his thing to the Amp which helped lower noise etc)
I also eq the return generally through a very good tube eq. More often than not that means a bit of a top cut or slight low boost depending on its placement. Sometimes just a LPF on the return. It's dimension is worth the effort imo.
Lately, we've been considering a significant move so I considered selling it. Knowing I'll regret that is so far winning out on committing though.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 4, 2021 9:45:36 GMT -6
Found this on the I versus the II. Scale down another equivalent step to get the III. The III is great for short ambiences, damp it all the way down for something more like chorus. The I does long well, short not so well.  |
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 4, 2021 12:26:53 GMT -6
yeah definitely make it fit how you want. just for an example, here is a classical guitar demo I did. This is an EMT140 plate adding the sound of the room. The studio is very dead. www.dropbox.com/s/s7byfgab3s3zfgt/Lagoya.wav?dl=0Doesn't sound like a plate at all I think, more of a room. Can't remember what I did to the plate but it's been heavily EQed on the send and return I'm sure. This is how I'd treat it in general, make it feel like a space, then send what i wanted to do. usually vocals, bit of snare, and few other key things so they all sounded like in the same room. I'll look through my archives to see if i have anything else that could show what I mean. Love the tone and ambience of your Lagoya classical guitar recording Blackdawg - haunting! I also found it reminiscent of the music from The Third Man (which is strange, since that was played on a zither). Martin Thanks! Not my playing, actually my lovely girlfriend playing a few years ago. I will let her know you're nice comments. |
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