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Post by gouge on Oct 31, 2021 19:24:14 GMT -6
with the new intel chips being released is it time to revisit the desktop pc?
intel are about to drop an i9 16 core ddr5 chip. whilst i'd resigned myself to the idea that the desktop, for audio, was a thing of the past, im now staring at my old decommissioned box and thinking.. why not!
with the specs of the 12th gen chips an i7 (12 core) is going to pump and i need more grunt so i can go acustica crazy during mixing.
is the desktop making a comeback?
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Post by mcirish on Nov 1, 2021 8:17:51 GMT -6
Desktop never went away for me. My studio has always has a desktop/workstation PC. Mine is due for an update but money is too tight to make that jump right now. Prices are a bit higher than they should be as well. Hopefully, shortages will stop being a thing and we can get prices back to normal. I was going to get a new video card a few weeks ago but found in some case the prices were triple what they were. Not a good time to buy, at least for me.
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 9:11:59 GMT -6
Desktop CPUs are vastly more powerful than laptop CPUs and always have been. As mentioned, the prices are pretty high right now. Who knows when or if they'll go back down to what we were accustomed to. I still believe that more than 8 cores is probably wasted money. CPU core speed is still king.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 10:00:43 GMT -6
The new intel chips will be a bit step up from any recent intel chip in the last 4 years. It's all due to AMD's Ryzen CPUs kicking their ass the last 3 years and now Apple is making a move. Good ole competition.
That said, Ryzen is still cheaper and just as powerful for Audio stuff. That's what i went for in 2020, a 3700x I believe. It's been a beast of a CPU, no regrets at all. Plus with the AMD's upgrading to a latest gen CPU is super easy compared to the intel stuff. It's the first AMD CPU i've own ever since Intel is typically the king of the crop, no more though. Now we got options!
My build is:
3700x locked to 4.1Ghz 2070 Super 16Gb DDR4(need to up this to 32, but hasn't hurt me any)
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 10:02:54 GMT -6
The new intel chips will be a bit step up from any recent intel chip in the last 4 years. It's all due to AMD's Ryzen CPUs kicking their ass the last 3 years and now Apple is making a move. Good ole competition. That said, Ryzen is still cheaper and just as powerful for Audio stuff. That's what i went for in 2020, a 3700x I believe. It's been a beast of a CPU, no regrets at all. Plus with the AMD's upgrading to a latest gen CPU is super easy compared to the intel stuff. It's the first AMD CPU i've own ever since Intel is typically the king of the crop, no more though. Now we got options! My build is: 3700x locked to 4.1Ghz 2070 Super 16Gb DDR4(need to up this to 32, but hasn't hurt me any) I read that some models still suffer from the inherent latency issues though.
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Post by popmann on Nov 1, 2021 10:11:18 GMT -6
Ive said in the past that once we stop being subsidized by mass internet users and gamers, there will be a market again for embedded recording and synth machines. But, when i can build or buy a $500 desktop and throw an old PCI card in it and have a 96khz DaW….OR sampler….how will there ever be a market for hardware like there once was?
But, once the mainstream is all laptop/tablet/phone….and the ONLY people who need big desktops are science and CaD, servers, and real “workstation class” cost be damned machines….when its “mobile or $6k tower”….fewer and fewer people will opt for the tower.
And gaming will be streaming in no time. My understanding is they can stream frame accurate gaming to what amounts to a thin client inside windows, mac, or Android. I know everyone has converted to buying games online—playstation network to Steam….once they enable streaming those full on….that will end that remaining market for consumer grade desktops.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 10:26:54 GMT -6
The new intel chips will be a bit step up from any recent intel chip in the last 4 years. It's all due to AMD's Ryzen CPUs kicking their ass the last 3 years and now Apple is making a move. Good ole competition. That said, Ryzen is still cheaper and just as powerful for Audio stuff. That's what i went for in 2020, a 3700x I believe. It's been a beast of a CPU, no regrets at all. Plus with the AMD's upgrading to a latest gen CPU is super easy compared to the intel stuff. It's the first AMD CPU i've own ever since Intel is typically the king of the crop, no more though. Now we got options! My build is: 3700x locked to 4.1Ghz 2070 Super 16Gb DDR4(need to up this to 32, but hasn't hurt me any) I read that some models still suffer from the inherent latency issues though. Maybe. idk. I'll admit I do 99.9% mixing on it not tracking. That and I'm running HDX so I don't have that problem. Still been a beast.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 10:29:04 GMT -6
Ive said in the past that once we stop being subsidized by mass internet users and gamers, there will be a market again for embedded recording and synth machines. But, when i can build or buy a $500 desktop and throw an old PCI card in it and have a 96khz DaW….OR sampler….how will there ever be a market for hardware like there once was? But, once the mainstream is all laptop/tablet/phone….and the ONLY people who need big desktops are science and CaD, servers, and real “workstation class” cost be damned machines….when its “mobile or $6k tower”….fewer and fewer people will opt for the tower. And gaming will be streaming in no time. My understanding is they can stream frame accurate gaming to what amounts to a thin client inside windows, mac, or Android. I know everyone has converted to buying games online—playstation network to Steam….once they enable streaming those full on….that will end that remaining market for consumer grade desktops. Game streaming is one of the most lucrative things online right now. It's already here. Go to Twitch.tv and start watching. Or Facebook Gaming. Or Youtube Gaming. People are doing it full time and making 100s of thousands of dollars or millions.
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Post by popmann on Nov 1, 2021 10:34:07 GMT -6
I read that some models still suffer from the inherent latency issues though. Maybe. idk. I'll admit I do 99.9% mixing on it not tracking. That and I'm running HDX so I don't have that problem. Still been a beast. Fwiw, I dont think he means audio latency. I could be wrong….in PC system design, DPC latency is a test of real time performance of a PC. Pretty sure thats what he is referring to….
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 11:28:34 GMT -6
Maybe. idk. I'll admit I do 99.9% mixing on it not tracking. That and I'm running HDX so I don't have that problem. Still been a beast. Fwiw, I dont think he means audio latency. I could be wrong….in PC system design, DPC latency is a test of real time performance of a PC. Pretty sure thats what he is referring to…. Actually both. The DPC latency issue with Ryzens manifested as random DPC slowdowns before the CPU would be taxed and this would freak out plugin compensation and cause clicks and pops in audio.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 11:32:24 GMT -6
Fwiw, I dont think he means audio latency. I could be wrong….in PC system design, DPC latency is a test of real time performance of a PC. Pretty sure thats what he is referring to…. Actually both. The DPC latency issue with Ryzens manifested as random DPC slowdowns before the CPU would be taxed and this would freak out plugin compensation and cause clicks and pops in audio. Wasn't that a Win 11 issue that has since been corrected? Im on Win10 anyways. Either way. I haven't noticed any issues at all.
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 11:36:05 GMT -6
Actually both. The DPC latency issue with Ryzens manifested as random DPC slowdowns before the CPU would be taxed and this would freak out plugin compensation and cause clicks and pops in audio. Wasn't that a Win 11 issue that has since been corrected? Im on Win10 anyways. Either way. I haven't noticed any issues at all. No, it was a hardware issue that started in the Ryzen architecture a few years ago. There was another recent latency issue with Win 11 and it was patched but seems to fix some applications and make others worse.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 11:57:45 GMT -6
Wasn't that a Win 11 issue that has since been corrected? Im on Win10 anyways. Either way. I haven't noticed any issues at all. No, it was a hardware issue that started in the Ryzen architecture a few years ago. There was another recent latency issue with Win 11 and it was patched but seems to fix some applications and make others worse. Hm well didn't affect me. Maybe it was Zen 1 related early on. I've mixed a lot of shit since then in 96 or 384k and haven't had any errors or anything.
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Post by christopher on Nov 1, 2021 12:07:12 GMT -6
I have a Ryzen 2400g for my desktop, older zen. And I have the newest intel i7 laptop chip, specs faster. I can’t tell a difference at all, I prefer to work on the desktop. I don’t use much plugins, although this IK stuff is making both computers reach limits in Reaper, really just when I go heavy on Lurssen on the 2bus and tape. And then have all virtual instruments. I put buffers to 2048 for mixing, not sure where the bottlenecks are yet. However it’s insane that I have 5 power hungry VI apps all cranking away, if I bypass Lurssen it’s smooth again.
The great thing are lots of threads I believe? If I understand correctly, Reaper divides plugins onto threads, those get assigned to cores. So I think more threads/cores help?
AMD drivers have had issues over the years, they’ve come a long way on that side of things. 2 years ago I’d say Intel, now I think the industry has embraced AMD at the same time their drivers have improved. It’s less riskier to go AMD today, still Intel has long relationships with dev community, so can’t go wrong.
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 12:32:54 GMT -6
No, it was a hardware issue that started in the Ryzen architecture a few years ago. There was another recent latency issue with Win 11 and it was patched but seems to fix some applications and make others worse. Hm well didn't affect me. Maybe it was Zen 1 related early on. I've mixed a lot of shit since then in 96 or 384k and haven't had any errors or anything. I believe it was on Ryzen 3xxx and early 5xxx CPUs. I also read that it was certain models within each lineup. Anecdotal statements on the internet seem to suggest the newest 5000 series no longer has the issues but the 3000 might still. Anyway, I don't use AMD. I thought about it but this issue scared me off at the last minute.
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Post by christopher on Nov 1, 2021 12:38:22 GMT -6
One thing to maaaybe consider.. I’ve had Acoustic Audio Pink for about 4 years and I’ve never used it. As soon as I open it in Reaper, the awesome GUI flashes on the screen and Reaper crashes. Just tried again last week, same result, even though new drivers, new versions of Reaper. I’ve assumed it’s something to do with Ryzen but I don’t know. As I type this I’m thinking I should try re-installing it before drawing any sort of conclusions
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2021 12:48:23 GMT -6
One thing to maaaybe consider.. I’ve had Acoustic Audio Pink for about 4 years and I’ve never used it. As soon as I open it in Reaper, the awesome GUI flashes on the screen and Reaper crashes. Just tried again last week, same result, even though new drivers, new versions of Reaper. I’ve assumed it’s something to do with Ryzen but I don’t know. As I type this I’m thinking I should try re-installing it before drawing any sort of conclusions Might see if you can download the newer version if your licensing will allow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2021 16:26:01 GMT -6
I have a Ryzen 2400g for my desktop, older zen. And I have the newest intel i7 laptop chip, specs faster. I can’t tell a difference at all, I prefer to work on the desktop. I don’t use much plugins, although this IK stuff is making both computers reach limits in Reaper, really just when I go heavy on Lurssen on the 2bus and tape. And then have all virtual instruments. I put buffers to 2048 for mixing, not sure where the bottlenecks are yet. However it’s insane that I have 5 power hungry VI apps all cranking away, if I bypass Lurssen it’s smooth again. The great thing are lots of threads I believe? If I understand correctly, Reaper divides plugins onto threads, those get assigned to cores. So I think more threads/cores help? AMD drivers have had issues over the years, they’ve come a long way on that side of things. 2 years ago I’d say Intel, now I think the industry has embraced AMD at the same time their drivers have improved. It’s less riskier to go AMD today, still Intel has long relationships with dev community, so can’t go wrong. IK is just totally unoptimized. Tokyo Dawn and U-he do far more with less. So do Overloud and Mercurial sims.
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Post by popmann on Nov 1, 2021 20:41:32 GMT -6
Ive said in the past that once we stop being subsidized by mass internet users and gamers, there will be a market again for embedded recording and synth machines. But, when i can build or buy a $500 desktop and throw an old PCI card in it and have a 96khz DaW….OR sampler….how will there ever be a market for hardware like there once was? But, once the mainstream is all laptop/tablet/phone….and the ONLY people who need big desktops are science and CaD, servers, and real “workstation class” cost be damned machines….when its “mobile or $6k tower”….fewer and fewer people will opt for the tower. And gaming will be streaming in no time. My understanding is they can stream frame accurate gaming to what amounts to a thin client inside windows, mac, or Android. I know everyone has converted to buying games online—playstation network to Steam….once they enable streaming those full on….that will end that remaining market for consumer grade desktops. Game streaming is one of the most lucrative things online right now. It's already here. Go to Twitch.tv and start watching. Or Facebook Gaming. Or Youtube Gaming. People are doing it full time and making 100s of thousands of dollars or millions. Isnt that just people streaming the output of their games for people to watch? Like social media for gamers. fwiw—I meant xbox Gamepass….nvidia’s GeforceNow service….You dont buy a video game capable computer to play cutting edge video games. You can play it any device that has enough GPU to render frames being sent from the cloud farms. Again, allegedly with frame level latency. Relevant because it will all but stop gaming PC builds outside of super enthusiast level. One of the last remaining reasons people build custom PCs in the consumer world.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2021 23:29:21 GMT -6
Game streaming is one of the most lucrative things online right now. It's already here. Go to Twitch.tv and start watching. Or Facebook Gaming. Or Youtube Gaming. People are doing it full time and making 100s of thousands of dollars or millions. Isnt that just people streaming the output of their games for people to watch? Like social media for gamers. fwiw—I meant xbox Gamepass….nvidia’s GeforceNow service….You dont buy a video game capable computer to play cutting edge video games. You can play it any device that has enough GPU to render frames being sent from the cloud farms. Again, allegedly with frame level latency. Relevant because it will all but stop gaming PC builds outside of super enthusiast level. One of the last remaining reasons people build custom PCs in the consumer world. Ah i gotcha. Like Stadia too. That is not going to replace Game consoles or PCs any time soon IMO. Purely because of 1 thing, internet infrastructure. If more people sudden got access to Fiber internet everywhere then sure. But until then, no way. Its all flopped on its face pretty badly. Other than single player RPG's.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 2, 2021 3:56:49 GMT -6
Hm well didn't affect me. Maybe it was Zen 1 related early on. I've mixed a lot of shit since then in 96 or 384k and haven't had any errors or anything. I believe it was on Ryzen 3xxx and early 5xxx CPUs. I also read that it was certain models within each lineup. Anecdotal statements on the internet seem to suggest the newest 5000 series no longer has the issues but the 3000 might still. Anyway, I don't use AMD. I thought about it but this issue scared me off at the last minute. I thought it was the way they did the infinity fabric that changed in the latest series? I know i researched it with Zen1 and went with intel. If you have HDX or other DSP it wouldn't be a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 9:05:18 GMT -6
Isnt that just people streaming the output of their games for people to watch? Like social media for gamers. fwiw—I meant xbox Gamepass….nvidia’s GeforceNow service….You dont buy a video game capable computer to play cutting edge video games. You can play it any device that has enough GPU to render frames being sent from the cloud farms. Again, allegedly with frame level latency. Relevant because it will all but stop gaming PC builds outside of super enthusiast level. One of the last remaining reasons people build custom PCs in the consumer world. Ah i gotcha. Like Stadia too. That is not going to replace Game consoles or PCs any time soon IMO. Purely because of 1 thing, internet infrastructure. If more people sudden got access to Fiber internet everywhere then sure. But until then, no way. Its all flopped on its face pretty badly. Other than single player RPG's. Even with fiber there's variable latency, lack of QOS, peak time contention etc. It's bad enough running VOIP calls over the internet even if the last leg fibre is 100+MB. With stuff like Netflix you can pre-buffer to ensure smooth playback, there's no guarantees with live applications. Also one can't beat the laws of physics (meaning latency / distance) for example a physics timestep in a game may happen every 20ms hence the need for a metric ton of co-lo racks (or "clouds" lol) local enough for a game to respond in real time. Or it becomes laggy, lag, lag, lag.. Then the cost to actually make this happen must be insane, if a single AAA game can tax a Nvidia 3080 which at the moment costs $1500.00(ish)? Even with bulk discounts, the VMWare bare metal servers required, air conditioning, racks, power, buildings, techs, management, ISP connectivity (40GB fiber links don't come cheap) etc. etc. you're talking nearly a billion (educated guessing here) just to cater to a couple of hundred thousand users. It doesn't make all that much fiscal sense, if someone buys a console and a game then a company like MS can profit twice over.. Plus there's the sub models which a lot of major dev's won't touch due to the cost of development meaning subsidised loss leader games, classics or low budget nothing to lose creations. Anyway I agree, for many reasons it does seem to flop on its face..
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Post by svart on Nov 2, 2021 10:51:09 GMT -6
Ah i gotcha. Like Stadia too. That is not going to replace Game consoles or PCs any time soon IMO. Purely because of 1 thing, internet infrastructure. If more people sudden got access to Fiber internet everywhere then sure. But until then, no way. Its all flopped on its face pretty badly. Other than single player RPG's. Even with fiber there's variable latency, lack of QOS, peak time contention etc. It's bad enough running VOIP calls over the internet even if the last leg fibre is 100+MB. With stuff like Netflix you can pre-buffer to ensure smooth playback, there's no guarantees with live applications. Also one can't beat the laws of physics (meaning latency / distance) for example a physics timestep in a game may happen every 20ms hence the need for a metric ton of co-lo racks (or "clouds" lol) local enough for a game to respond in real time. Or it becomes laggy, lag, lag, lag.. Then the cost to actually make this happen must be insane, if a single AAA game can tax a Nvidia 3080 which at the moment costs $1500.00(ish)? Even with bulk discounts, the VMWare bare metal servers required, air conditioning, racks, power, buildings, techs, management, ISP connectivity (40GB fiber links don't come cheap) etc. etc. you're talking nearly a billion (educated guessing here) just to cater to a couple of hundred thousand users. It doesn't make all that much fiscal sense, if someone buys a console and a game then a company like MS can profit twice over.. Plus there's the sub models which a lot of major dev's won't touch due to the cost of development meaning subsidised loss leader games, classics or low budget nothing to lose creations. Anyway I agree, for many reasons it does seem to flop on its face.. Biggest drawback of fiber is hard-capped bandwidth. They offer very high speed, but limited bandwidth, so when more users are using the same fiber, each user's speed starts to drop. If a few people are streaming 4K in the house then the ability to stream a 4K game with a playable ping might be impossible.
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Post by svart on Nov 2, 2021 10:52:12 GMT -6
Posting this in the single PC thread so that the Mac folks don't complain about having to see this in any of their hundreds of Mac threads.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 2, 2021 11:41:28 GMT -6
svart he's perfect for this topic, I'm LOL'ing, great video
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