|
|
Post by notneeson on Oct 13, 2021 12:00:57 GMT -6
Anyone else getting Jeff Tweedy's newsletter?
I found this terrifically on point in terms of my personal singing journey:
"Ed asks: Hey Jeff and Susie! I’ve wanted to ask this question forever so thanks for the chance! Jeff, how did you work on expanding your vocal range? It’s quite a bit different to listen to your vocals on AM compared to more recent releases. It seems like you keep expanding your range even higher even as you get older. And you really use that higher range effectively for conveying vulnerability. How did you start expanding your range and how do you keep that upper range as you age while other singers lose some range? It’s sort of advice-related as I struggle myself to push my vocals higher. Thanks!
Jeff: Hi Ed,
First of all, thank you for thinking of me as a singer with any type of vocal range. I wasn’t aware there were any of you out there. Seriously, I’m flattered.
The sad truth is I have no idea why my voice has changed the way it has. I do know that I feel much more in control of what comes out of my mouth when I open it these days than I did when I was, say, 25. The only explanation I have is that I’ve grown to have a comfort and familiarity with what I sound like over the years. So when I sing today, those feelings allow me to stay focused on what I’m trying to say instead of being overly concerned with the traditional criteria of “good” singing—pitch, note duration, whatnot.
So the only advice I feel strongly enough about to advocate for here would be to get comfortable with hearing yourself sing and make peace with the way your voice sounds. Then sing all the time. Actually, THAT’S the only real advice I have. Sing as loud and as often as you can, and everything else will work itself out."
|
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Oct 13, 2021 13:45:57 GMT -6
That is awesome. I don't sing often but this is great.
part of that reminds me of what a lot of my jazz teachers and heroes say about getting good
"play a lot"
haha.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Oct 13, 2021 15:27:11 GMT -6
Humility? In this day and age? It warms the heart!
|
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 13, 2021 18:46:04 GMT -6
Jeff Tweedy has a newsletter??
|
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Oct 13, 2021 19:56:46 GMT -6
Jeff Tweedy has a newsletter?? Yes, he's doing a substack thing with unreleased material behind a paywall. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Oct 14, 2021 4:00:09 GMT -6
This... jefftweedy.substack.com/p/welcome-to-starship-casualHis book was an interesting read, and he points out that he is not a genius, but he works hard. Totally worth to buy if you write songs, even if you don't write songs. He has everything it needs IQ / EQ / PQ ... Love his view of doing the thing on earth. |
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Oct 15, 2021 12:00:43 GMT -6
Anyone else getting Jeff Tweedy's newsletter? I found this terrifically on point in terms of my personal singing journey: "Ed asks: Hey Jeff and Susie! I’ve wanted to ask this question forever so thanks for the chance! Jeff, how did you work on expanding your vocal range? It’s quite a bit different to listen to your vocals on AM compared to more recent releases. It seems like you keep expanding your range even higher even as you get older. And you really use that higher range effectively for conveying vulnerability. How did you start expanding your range and how do you keep that upper range as you age while other singers lose some range? It’s sort of advice-related as I struggle myself to push my vocals higher. Thanks! Jeff: Hi Ed, First of all, thank you for thinking of me as a singer with any type of vocal range. I wasn’t aware there were any of you out there. Seriously, I’m flattered. The sad truth is I have no idea why my voice has changed the way it has. I do know that I feel much more in control of what comes out of my mouth when I open it these days than I did when I was, say, 25. The only explanation I have is that I’ve grown to have a comfort and familiarity with what I sound like over the years. So when I sing today, those feelings allow me to stay focused on what I’m trying to say instead of being overly concerned with the traditional criteria of “good” singing—pitch, note duration, whatnot. So the only advice I feel strongly enough about to advocate for here would be to get comfortable with hearing yourself sing and make peace with the way your voice sounds. Then sing all the time. Actually, THAT’S the only real advice I have. Sing as loud and as often as you can, and everything else will work itself out." Having taught vocals for the last 30 years, I'm not sure I can agree with "Sing as loud as you want" Developing your middle voice (which is a turning point for freedom for most male singers) is achieved by not getting louder as your move into the middle voice. It's why CCM singers use microphones to do the work for them - yes it's good to use belt occasionally for highlight and effect but generally that's a recipe for inflamed vocal chords. The pedagogy of singing is a murky place with many statements out their that confuse younger or inexperienced singers because they're taken out of context. |
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Oct 15, 2021 12:29:14 GMT -6
Anyone else getting Jeff Tweedy's newsletter? I found this terrifically on point in terms of my personal singing journey: "Ed asks: Hey Jeff and Susie! I’ve wanted to ask this question forever so thanks for the chance! Jeff, how did you work on expanding your vocal range? It’s quite a bit different to listen to your vocals on AM compared to more recent releases. It seems like you keep expanding your range even higher even as you get older. And you really use that higher range effectively for conveying vulnerability. How did you start expanding your range and how do you keep that upper range as you age while other singers lose some range? It’s sort of advice-related as I struggle myself to push my vocals higher. Thanks! Jeff: Hi Ed, First of all, thank you for thinking of me as a singer with any type of vocal range. I wasn’t aware there were any of you out there. Seriously, I’m flattered. The sad truth is I have no idea why my voice has changed the way it has. I do know that I feel much more in control of what comes out of my mouth when I open it these days than I did when I was, say, 25. The only explanation I have is that I’ve grown to have a comfort and familiarity with what I sound like over the years. So when I sing today, those feelings allow me to stay focused on what I’m trying to say instead of being overly concerned with the traditional criteria of “good” singing—pitch, note duration, whatnot. So the only advice I feel strongly enough about to advocate for here would be to get comfortable with hearing yourself sing and make peace with the way your voice sounds. Then sing all the time. Actually, THAT’S the only real advice I have. Sing as loud and as often as you can, and everything else will work itself out." Having taught vocals for the last 30 years, I'm not sure I can agree with "Sing as loud as you want" Developing your middle voice (which is a turning point for freedom for most male singers) is achieved by not getting louder as your move into the middle voice. It's why CCM singers use microphones to do the work for them - yes it's good to use belt occasionally for highlight and effect but generally that's a recipe for inflamed vocal chords. The pedagogy of singing is a murky place with many statements out their that confuse younger or inexperienced singers because they're taken out of context. Good point, but I do think "sing as loud as you want" in this case is probably intended to mean something more like "don't be shy, try to project your voice so you can be heard." |
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Oct 15, 2021 12:43:32 GMT -6
I think (? just a personal idea) that he means just to sing freely. Not "hiding" your voice by being embarrassed around people or whatever. Just sing at a full register. Not necessarily shaking the walls.
I know a lot of people that are afraid to project or just haven't learned how. I think learning how to project is on the nose advice for inexperienced singers.
Some people will naturally blow your head off, from birth, but there's a lot more that sound kind of quiet and need to learn how to open up.
|
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Oct 15, 2021 13:46:48 GMT -6
Ah I see what you mean - confidence.
Yes, that's a different thing altogether.
|
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Oct 15, 2021 18:39:48 GMT -6
With singing, you can’t be afraid to suck and unfortunately, I am often afraid to.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Oct 15, 2021 19:43:06 GMT -6
With singing, you can’t be afraid to suck and unfortunately, I am often afraid to. I love flawed voices. 'Perfect' ones are grating. Everyone has his or her own voice. Personally, I'd rather be the withered sounding farmer than the slick door to door sales agent. |
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Oct 16, 2021 4:43:46 GMT -6
With singing, you can’t be afraid to suck and unfortunately, I am often afraid to. I love flawed voices. 'Perfect' ones are grating. Everyone has his or her own voice. Personally, I'd rather be the withered sounding farmer than the slick door to door sales agent. LOL .... having spent a musical lifetime developing a balanced voice that goes from crooning to jazz to good old rock'n'roll all "in toon" and with a decent range .... well I might have to say it's very rewarding getting applause and compliments as a singing door to door sales agent - I'll take that all day long :-) But I also hear you - I love "vocalists" too. People have a grain and personality to their voice that tells a story and often the story teller is flawed is great ways that's very appealing. It depends on the genre you write and play in I guess as to the demands on your voice. |
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Oct 16, 2021 8:07:09 GMT -6
In all seriousness, I am satisfied “mostly” with how my voice sounds. I know I will never be great but I can get my point across. What I would like to do is add a little bit range to my sweet spot and smooth out my vocal break. I don’t know what or how to practice. I get overwhelmed by conflicting info there.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Oct 16, 2021 12:17:02 GMT -6
Anyone else getting Jeff Tweedy's newsletter? I found this terrifically on point in terms of my personal singing journey: "Ed asks: Hey Jeff and Susie! I’ve wanted to ask this question forever so thanks for the chance! Jeff, how did you work on expanding your vocal range? It’s quite a bit different to listen to your vocals on AM compared to more recent releases. It seems like you keep expanding your range even higher even as you get older. And you really use that higher range effectively for conveying vulnerability. How did you start expanding your range and how do you keep that upper range as you age while other singers lose some range? It’s sort of advice-related as I struggle myself to push my vocals higher. Thanks! Jeff: Hi Ed, First of all, thank you for thinking of me as a singer with any type of vocal range. I wasn’t aware there were any of you out there. Seriously, I’m flattered. The sad truth is I have no idea why my voice has changed the way it has. I do know that I feel much more in control of what comes out of my mouth when I open it these days than I did when I was, say, 25. The only explanation I have is that I’ve grown to have a comfort and familiarity with what I sound like over the years. So when I sing today, those feelings allow me to stay focused on what I’m trying to say instead of being overly concerned with the traditional criteria of “good” singing—pitch, note duration, whatnot. So the only advice I feel strongly enough about to advocate for here would be to get comfortable with hearing yourself sing and make peace with the way your voice sounds. Then sing all the time. Actually, THAT’S the only real advice I have. Sing as loud and as often as you can, and everything else will work itself out." Having taught vocals for the last 30 years, I'm not sure I can agree with "Sing as loud as you want" Developing your middle voice (which is a turning point for freedom for most male singers) is achieved by not getting louder as your move into the middle voice. It's why CCM singers use microphones to do the work for them - yes it's good to use belt occasionally for highlight and effect but generally that's a recipe for inflamed vocal chords. The pedagogy of singing is a murky place with many statements out their that confuse younger or inexperienced singers because they're taken out of context.
That's interesting, I do the online training with Jane Edgren since two years now, exercises every day.  I now can say I am getting much better control over my singing, no more scooping, from time to time I hit the wrong note, but that's OK.
I start to like my vocal work, which wasn't the case in the first 16 months.
Very late in this course, I make the experience that my practices are more effective when I sing the vowels soft.
That was a surprising experience for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Oct 16, 2021 12:18:51 GMT -6
Fear is the mind killer. And vocal sucker.
|
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Oct 18, 2021 0:55:46 GMT -6
Having taught vocals for the last 30 years, I'm not sure I can agree with "Sing as loud as you want" Developing your middle voice (which is a turning point for freedom for most male singers) is achieved by not getting louder as your move into the middle voice. It's why CCM singers use microphones to do the work for them - yes it's good to use belt occasionally for highlight and effect but generally that's a recipe for inflamed vocal chords. The pedagogy of singing is a murky place with many statements out their that confuse younger or inexperienced singers because they're taken out of context.
That's interesting, I do the online training with Jane Edgren since two years now, exercises every day. I now can say I am getting much better control over my singing, no more scooping, from time to time I hit the wrong note, but that's OK.
I start to like my vocal work, which wasn't the case in the first 16 months.
Very late in this course, I make the experience that my practices are more effective when I sing the vowels soft.
That was a surprising experience for me.
It's interesting subject - singing and loudness. In my experience it's hard to escape the laws of physics and best to harness them if you can. Every note has a fundamental and then harmonic overtones - IME it's the harmonic overtones that give everyone's voice their signature character and grain. The fundamental pitch being essentially close to a sine wave has no character and so when people just sing "loud" they get too much fundamental and kind of drown out the harmonics! When you sing "soft vowels" you get the mix far more in favour of the "sexy intermate" harmonics and we sound really musical and engaging. Until .... You start to drive your voice in it's upper register (think Sting "Shadows in the Rain") now the chords are starting to distort a little and you get rich overtones like driving a guitar amp! But for me, even this is achieved by balancing air pressure against muscle other wise I know I'll just blow my voice out and potentially hurt my cords! I can get this kind of driven distortion in my upper register but it still doesn't use much air pressure - it's a fairly gentle belt in the middle voice. There are of course other voices and blends - musical theatre, operatic, crooning - but still my own approach is a conscious control of air vs muscle and soft vs belt. I can recommend "Roger Love's" book on learning middle voice (great teacher) and also I can highly recommend the magic of semi-occluded vocal tract exercises. Just get a straw and a glass of water and look it up on Youtube. Semi-occluded vocal tract exercises are probably THE best vocal exercises anyone can do - talk about freeing your voice. Try doing it for 10 minutes then just sing - it's a wow experience. Here's the genius behind it Ingo Titze - he uses just a straw but a straw blowing into a glass of water in my favourite - there a loads of examples on Youtube of it's uses. |
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Oct 18, 2021 8:15:51 GMT -6
It sounds like as Jeff became more comfortable with his voice he realized it was actually placed a bit higher than he was comfortable singing in his youth. This is not uncommon, especially in the classical world where a rich voiced tenor with a lack in technique may appear to be more of a baritone until they learn the technique needed to push higher. thehightenor you are so right about vocal pedagogy being a murky subject. Even among classical singing there have always been several schools of thought and those schools have evolved greatly in the last 100 years as well often incorporating bits of each other. I watch many classical singers sing in a vertical oval shape with their mouths and then claim to be from the Italian school, but if you read what Caruso and Tatrazzini said about the oval they refer to it as being horizontal, which it often referred to as broadening or singing in the masque. Singing in the masque is yet another term that is misunderstood and argued about vs the open throat, etc, however they are also connected.... But I digressed a bit. Personally, I think so much of singing any style is about proper breathing. So many teachers don't know how to teach the support system. Placement to a degree is also important, but changes a little depending on the style you're singing, like thehightenor pointed out. The easiest is a forward mask placement, and just doing that makes the voice "louder." it doesn't even matter what style. You loose the airy quality though when the voice is more focused forward, so for pop and rock singing it becomes about knowing when to let more of the air in as an effect. Then you have a the larynx position. If you want a more operatic sound, or that early Crosby/Sinatra crooner sound, you want the larynx to relax a bit, which too makes the sound louder, but also fuller. If you want more of a pop/rock sound a neutral or raise larynx give the voice a bit more bite. R&B I've heard done either way. Some of the gospel rooted singers let the larynx lower a bit for that full sound we all love in gospel, while many more modern singers keep it either neutral of even raised. I also agree with you about the middle voice. You handle the middle voice differently than your lower or higher voice. I was actually the opposite and always had a really good middle voice, but struggled with the bottom and top. My bottom voice didn't exist and my top was very floaty and mixed for a long time. I know so many male singers whose voice blossomed once they figured out how to sing in the middle voice. Some, like Jeff, realized they had all these higher notes once they stopped pounding their middle voice. I've never tried the straw exercise, but I know quite a few people who swear by it. |
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Oct 18, 2021 14:09:49 GMT -6
It sounds like as Jeff became more comfortable with his voice he realized it was actually placed a bit higher than he was comfortable singing in his youth. This is not uncommon, especially in the classical world where a rich voiced tenor with a lack in technique may appear to be more of a baritone until they learn the technique needed to push higher. thehightenor you are so right about vocal pedagogy being a murky subject. Even among classical singing there have always been several schools of thought and those schools have evolved greatly in the last 100 years as well often incorporating bits of each other. I watch many classical singers sing in a vertical oval shape with their mouths and then claim to be from the Italian school, but if you read what Caruso and Tatrazzini said about the oval they refer to it as being horizontal, which it often referred to as broadening or singing in the masque. Singing in the masque is yet another term that is misunderstood and argued about vs the open throat, etc, however they are also connected.... But I digressed a bit. Personally, I think so much of singing any style is about proper breathing. So many teachers don't know how to teach the support system. Placement to a degree is also important, but changes a little depending on the style you're singing, like thehightenor pointed out. The easiest is a forward mask placement, and just doing that makes the voice "louder." it doesn't even matter what style. You loose the airy quality though when the voice is more focused forward, so for pop and rock singing it becomes about knowing when to let more of the air in as an effect. Then you have a the larynx position. If you want a more operatic sound, or that early Crosby/Sinatra crooner sound, you want the larynx to relax a bit, which too makes the sound louder, but also fuller. If you want more of a pop/rock sound a neutral or raise larynx give the voice a bit more bite. R&B I've heard done either way. Some of the gospel rooted singers let the larynx lower a bit for that full sound we all love in gospel, while many more modern singers keep it either neutral of even raised. I also agree with you about the middle voice. You handle the middle voice differently than your lower or higher voice. I was actually the opposite and always had a really good middle voice, but struggled with the bottom and top. My bottom voice didn't exist and my top was very floaty and mixed for a long time. I know so many male singers whose voice blossomed once they figured out how to sing in the middle voice. Some, like Jeff, realized they had all these higher notes once they stopped pounding their middle voice. I've never tried the straw exercise, but I know quite a few people who swear by it. Lot's of interesting stuff in here - thanks for posting it. If you try the straw thing do it blowing/vocalising into a glass of water. I use two pieces of paper to demonstrate the concept to students, if you take two pieces of A4 paper and hang them vertically and blow between them - what happens? All my students say they will blow apart. In fact they don't they suck together - the same physics as to how an aircraft wing causes lift - low and high pressure zones above and below the wing. Titze was a very clever man and through research realised that how the cords behave - most beginner singers approximate the cords and air is lost without turning into sound - more of a hoot than a note. When they blow through a straw into water and vocalise then the cords behave very naturally and efficiently without the issues of trying to sing a note a bit like making a buzzing noise is vocalising without singing. It's so so effective for teaching. The effect for an established singer is also great - try it for 5 minutes then sing - your voice will feel so free - at least that's the effect it has on me. If my voice is tired, vocalising into a straw (even without a glass of water) will bring everything back to balance. |
|
