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Post by rowmat on May 30, 2021 19:16:49 GMT -6
It appears that the future model for nearly all software and plugins will ultimately be subscriptions.
This caused me to end my relationship with Adobe, ensured I would never choose Pro Tools as my DAW, while opting for convertors that were not application dependent and also has me looking elsewhere rather than entering the a Izotope ecosystem.
Of course if you are in the minority making good income from recording then software subscriptions maybe cost effective especially if they can be deducted.
However for the weekend warriors, those who only record for personal reasons or their friends for free, or on the cheap, I can see a reckoning coming.
Many seem to have more plugins from different developers they can ever possibly use, at least on a regular basis.
Buying bundles is often cost effective during sales but once more developers move to subscriptions the monthly cost is going to become unaffordable for a lot of users.
$20 a month for one developer’s bundle may seem reasonable but multiply that by 10 or 20 before you know it you’re into car loan repayment territory.
So maybe don’t get rid of every last piece of your favourite hardware just yet?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 21:59:41 GMT -6
Most plugins are straight up bad, the developers are out of ideas, and need to maintain cash flow to maintain their lifestyle from an industry where most of the money left. Software isn't a trophy piece to flex like classic or flavor of the month hardware is for a weekend warrior to flex. Look at most of the Waves, IK, PA lineup. Very few standouts and very few things that don't misbehave. Being pioneers 20 years ago hasn't led them to keep up and few of their plugins were better than what came with your daw anyway. I tried that Oxford Gate recently. It's pretty much not better than I remember Oxford Dynamics being, not as easy to use as ReaGate, and still can't extract cymbal and kick bleed from blasting snares.
Almost all the analog emulations are straight up awful out there. You don't need that many plugs. The best developers don't even make many analog emulations. Digital algorithms were always far ahead of component modeling and now the best ones are so far ahead, they're just as good as the great majority of analog gear and many of the pieces of analog gear with weird behavior, are having that behavior captured by developers like Goodhertz and Fuse. The world has no need of another 1176, LA2A, or SSL whatever emulation.
How many developers even push the digital envelope? Tokyo Dawn, Goodhertz, Sound Radix, Tone Projects, U-he, and Fuse is the king of weird. I'm trying to think of more but most of what gets released is flavor of the month and meant to take a quick buck out of you.
Kush claimed to have "nailed the analog" with Silika yet it still sounded like a cool clipper. SSL and Softube sell gobbler subscriptions. Izotope sells crazy bundles and makes you pay to update them like Waves. Oxford hasn't come up with anything super great since Paul Frindle retired. I'd rather pay 100-200 bucks for a plugin that rules like Sonnox or UAD or have some guy sell it to everyone like Klanghelm and TDR even if 99% of the people buying the TDR plugs can't figure out how to use them and DC8C3 is a brain melt than ever pay for a subscription.
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Post by sirthought on May 31, 2021 1:46:17 GMT -6
I generally agree with you, but I paid for the Mix and Master Bundle with PA and am satisfied. It was $150 promo and will be $200 when it re-ups. Although it's not their everything bundle, there are no plugins of their's missing in this that I'd want. I could spend $200 on a single plugin in a year, so getting access to dozens does seem like a good deal, especially when they are adding new stuff regularly. And they give you a respectable coupon credit to boot, so if there's one plugin you feel you should own in case you stop buying the bundle, you can pick it up affordably if you wait for deals. I think I bought two items with my credit and spent around $25.
At any rate, this bundle has given me a chance to feel out more options longer than most demos, so while some stuff never gets used, I do learn more about the differences between some of the channel strips, which I find valuable to my learning.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 31, 2021 2:47:23 GMT -6
No subs here. I have the plugs I need/like. Sold what I wanted to including UA and just selectively rebought.
A sub plan would do nothing for me, except waste my money: no thanks.
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Post by gouge on May 31, 2021 4:49:18 GMT -6
yep no sub here either. i'm very much a weekend warrior.
i've done pretty good getting plugs. i avoided the rush to fill my hard drives.
i only really buy plugs when they are on sale. never paid more than $29 for most of the ones i have and never bought when not on sale. the 3-4 waves plugs i use are 3 years old now and i've no need to update or pay subscriptions. izotope i bought when they were on special. don;t use them much anymore so a bit of a waste there and no need to subscribe.
thing is, i got a lot for free. a lot of exceptional plugs are available for free. i got some via the focusrite plugin collective and others are free from the designer like tokyo dawn, klanghelm, acustica.
acustica and tokyo dawn labs i'll pay for. but only when on sale. to me, they sound better than any other plugs i've used. acustica especially being the best to my ears so far. i'd go as far as to say a couple of the acustica are exceptional. all the other plugs just don't sound great to me so i'm using them regularly if they perform a task i need like, metering, auto tune, auto volume etc.
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Post by Guitar on May 31, 2021 5:49:35 GMT -6
I agree with Dan and I was talking to mrholmes about this yesterday, support the small developers. Doubt they will ever go sub: TDR, uHe, Fuse, Klanghelm, Airwindows, DMG, Crave DSP, Toneboosters, Massenburg, Kazrog, Noise Ash, Jon V, SIR, Tone Projects, etc etc. Many of these are 'better' plugins, I'm realizing that now. They are the backyard organic potato farmers of the industry. Not the guys posting instagram stories of their yacht rides, mansions, and lamborghinis. Yes you might still need Kontakt, you might still need Izotope RX, but hopefully those will always have a 'buy' option, and they currently still do, although those two companies are now making board room deals with each other, not sure what will come of it. The only sub I currently have is Plugin Alliance. I pay $150, and I get a $250 voucher to spend at any time. It's sort of like getting a sale price for ownership, plus I can use anything I want and see if I like it. I would consider this a special case. Also plan to retire it maybe after next year, since I own almost everything I would ever want from them.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 31, 2021 6:32:31 GMT -6
We are moving in to a different era. Security is becoming a major consideration and that is forcing the expense of constant updates on developers. Subscription is the equivalent of music streaming. It’s pretty inevitable.
My best friend in high school went to MIT. He told me in 1966 not to study computer programming because it was all headed for the cloud with minimal local computers. The microprocessor delayed it but I suspect we’re still headed in the same direction.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 7:35:26 GMT -6
We are moving in to a different era. Security is becoming a major consideration and that is forcing the expense of constant updates on developers. Subscription is the equivalent of music streaming. It’s pretty inevitable. My best friend in high school went to MIT. He told me in 1966 not to study computer programming because it was all headed for the cloud with minimal local computers. The microprocessor delayed it but I suspect we’re still headed in the same direction. Cloud is just a data centre somewhere else with racks of servers hosting software, someone still has to write said software and that won't change in the foreseeable future. For all the "automation" & ML the industry does it has only served to bolster complexity and skill sets required meaning those who are into career progression know more and earn more. The whole server / client / geolocation cloud services thing has been in full swing for decades in some industries and as the internet infrastructure improves it will spill over to other industries, games are one of the more recent platforms (hosted not MMO / FPS online) types. Still having bare metal ESXI chassis running millions of GPU's and CPU's ain't what one would call cheap (especially at upgrade time). On the matter of subs, the hybrid model is fine (purchase or sub). Sub only especially when dealing with multiple vendors long term is overpaying and charity to the companies providing the plugs, not something I agree with.. Anyway, if sub'ing is the only option no issue because as rowmat said it gives ample opportunity to fawn over some nice shiny hardware. Let's just hope most DAW's don't follow this path like Avid :S...
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Post by bgrotto on May 31, 2021 9:11:20 GMT -6
Of course if you are in the minority making good income from recording then software subscriptions maybe cost effective especially if they can be deducted. However for the weekend warriors, those who only record for personal reasons or their friends for free, or on the cheap, I can see a reckoning coming. It seems to me that the subscription model for most plugin products is aimed much more squarely at the 'weekend warrior' market (they'd be fools not to, since, as you mentioned, there are a LOT more of those folks than people making their living doing audio work). I don't know that many (if any) of my colleagues are subscribers. Anywho, as an audio full-timer, I don't (and will never) purchase a subscription, with the possible exception of Pro Tools, because Avid has damn near made avoiding it an impossibility. I have a perpetual license for my personal use, and for my studio, but the difference between perpetual licenses and subscriptions are rather narrow. I'll likely renew them till PT gives me ARA, then I'll be happy to let the 'support' lapse. But who knows how long that will take to implement...
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Post by ericn on May 31, 2021 9:35:36 GMT -6
Bob O has mentioned before that some accounting rule changes are part of what has brought this tush towards subscription. The Apple silicon migration is a classic example of why this makes sense. Think about it, Dan Alexander dosen’t have to rebuild my 8ch every time Apple makes a major change but Plugin vendors do if they want to survive! How many products have their revisions scheduled by someone else? It sucks but if you want your favorite to survive subscription is probably the only sensible model.
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Post by seawell on May 31, 2021 9:54:49 GMT -6
I previously had Slate, Relab and Plugin Alliance but have since let them all go. The main issue for me was just too many choices. I stick to buying plug ins on sale for the most part these days and have really thinned out the list.
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 10:04:31 GMT -6
I really dislike the sub model. It's the same thing that you see when streaming TV started to take over. At first, it was like "Ok, I'll get Netflix for $7 a month. Nice". Then Hulu came, then Acorn TV, Youtube TV, blah blah blah. They each may have something you want. So are you going to get all of them? Because if you do, you will probably pay as much or more per month than your old cable subscription. How many effing subs do they think you can have? Well, they all want you to choose JUST theirs. With plugins you buy outright, you can just use what you want. But I am not going to subscribe to waves, slate, plugin alliance, izotope, etc. That's way too much money. Throw in a pro tools sub on top of it. That's a lot of money. How much do you want to bet these "updates" you are paying for with a sub are pointless or non-existent anyway?
The problem really becomes updating a system or OS. If I can last on all my owned plugins(non-sub licenses I guess) that is preferable. But the day will come when I upgrade my OS or switch to Mac or something, and there will be an incompatibility issue. I'll go to the site and there won't be an update to my plug, there will be a subscription I have to get in order to get my updated plugin. And that sub probably comes with 50 other plugins I don't want. So really, it will end up streamlining my setup.
That's the upshot. Maybe I'll just pick a few plugs I like and just use those forever. I have too many anyway. Guys and gals survived on a bunch of one type of eq in a console forever. I guess I can do the same with a plug. Or honestly, just mixing with stock DAW plugins.
I'm grumpy this morning.
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Post by drbill on May 31, 2021 10:11:59 GMT -6
no subscriptions here. The only one I MIGHT consider would be AVID / PT. Other than that, no thanks.
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Post by bgrotto on May 31, 2021 10:12:00 GMT -6
Bob O has mentioned before that some accounting rule changes are part of what has brought this tush towards subscription. The Apple silicon migration is a classic example of why this makes sense. Think about it, Dan Alexander dosen’t have to rebuild my 8ch every time Apple makes a major change but Plugin vendors do if they want to survive! How many products have their revisions scheduled by someone else? It sucks but if you want your favorite to survive subscription is probably the only sensible model. Or, plugins could just cost more, or have periodic upgrade fees. The waves-style race to the bottom isn’t good for anyone in the medium or long term.
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Post by Guitar on May 31, 2021 10:20:02 GMT -6
I'm not a business-head, but the $20-50 price range seems perfect for a lot of plugins. Pros and "warriors" alike can buy scads of these and prop up the companies. I think, from what I can tell, that Waves is doing very well. I'd prefer to buy a bunch of $30 plugins than to buy a bunch of subscriptions.
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Post by svart on May 31, 2021 10:32:23 GMT -6
I won't buy anything with subscriptions or limits.
It might be the end of new plugs for me soon, but I just won't participate in it.
A Dan said, there's not much new out there. It's just shades of things already done.
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Post by bgrotto on May 31, 2021 11:08:25 GMT -6
I'm not a business-head, but the $20-50 price range seems perfect for a lot of plugins. Pros and "warriors" alike can buy scads of these and prop up the companies. I think, from what I can tell, that Waves is doing very well. I'd prefer to buy a bunch of $30 plugins than to buy a bunch of subscriptions. Behringer does very well too. That doesn't make them a particularly useful company for the medium- to long-term advancement of the audio arts. I think Waves is milking a short-term opportunity by selling disposable mediocrity to the masses. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and I don't fault them from a business perspective, but I do lament the 'race to the bottom' I mentioned earlier. Once upon a time, Waves was an innovator, and they charged an innovator's prices. Now, they repackage 15 or 20 year old technology and slap some famous mixer's name on the marketing, and sell it for $29 on some sort of never-ending 'sale'. Not exactly the sign of a healthy, forward-thinking industry, IMO. Hell, TDR sells plugins for low prices, but manages to push the envelope with every release. It's not like this sort of thing is impossible. Fab Filter charges what I consider very fair prices for their excellent tools, and there are occasional upgrade costs that are entirely reasonable. And they continue to innovate while also refining their existing portfolio. Anywho, $20-50 is, indeed, great for a lot of plugins. On that we agree. Hell...i own scores of the things (more than I'll ever use, tbh, because I'm often fooled into the "oh it's only $25" tactic), so I'd be a hypocrite to say there's not a massive and viable market for them. But to your point about subs vs. cheap plugins, I'd counter that I'd rather have neither, and instead, pay innovative companies a fair (read: higher) purchase price if it means better service, more innovation, future support, and so on.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 31, 2021 11:21:49 GMT -6
No subs here either.
Also izotope has a sub but they still sell licenses. Because a sub is cheaper for a weekend warrior who only needs rx for a month. Not every day.
Sub make some sense more so for a weekend warrior than a pro. You just rent what you need when you need it just like you'd rent high end analog gear when you'd need it.
I honestly have never been a fan of plugins in general ever since the whole avid rtas to aax switch. Overnight all my plugins were now useless. Software sucks because of that. It's always a matter of comparability on multiple levels.
Some plugins I need and can't work with out. Like rx8. But I could survive just fine with avid stock plugins and hardware.
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Post by Guitar on May 31, 2021 11:27:00 GMT -6
I agree, bgrotto, that Waves is not chasing innovation maybe as much as they could be, but some of their newer plugs like Sibilance and perhaps the RS124, Abbey Road Plate and Chamber, etc, seem to be quite good. Hell they might even be broken in some ways if you look at the measurements people have been doing. I almost want to cut them some slack since they are the dinosaurs of the industry. They have the oldest plugin, they still sell it, Q10, the first plugin. I got it for $12. Sounds funny next to something like Massenburg or Fab Filter, but it was good enough for Amy Winehouse lead vocals.
But I also agree that I will pay for quality, whether it's 30 bucks or 150 bucks. Whatever is fair, I will pay it. The small companies with low prices, that innovate, seem the most exciting to me, but I do also get excited, like you said, about more costly products that show innovation. Like the Weiss products from Softube.
I'm not sure how price point specifically relates to this discussion because I'm not an economist. But it does seem obvious that people impulsively "collect" $30 plugins, I have been guilty of this myself. Like the very good Purple MC77 that I don't use, to give one example. It's a good plugin, but I probably didn't need it.
I'm not sure if, in turn, this somehow affects the mindset of the plugin developers, to "crank out pancakes" or something like this, but I would guess that's a silent factor. The major difference between your Crave DSP (with a single plugin,) and your Waves/Plugin Alliance/UAD to give some examples, the size of the library.
At the end of the day I really can't fault any of them, most of these brands still make compelling products, when you pick and choose. It's ridiculous how good many of them are. It's a good situation.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 31, 2021 12:13:12 GMT -6
I've got the Plugin Alliance sub and like it. I pay $150 a year, they give me a voucher for perpetual licenses, and they keep coming out with new stuff. Their new GK bass amp sim is pretty damn rad. All of a sudden, it drops and I have access. Probably wouldn't have checked it out without the sub, but had a punk bass track that needed some excitement, had good luck with GK heads in the past, slapped it on and it was the sound I was looking for. I'm even thinking about buying a head now to have around the studio (to go along with the other stack of bass amps I've got).
90% of my mixing now is with FabFilter, Plugin Alliance, the Arturia bundle (love the Sta sim), and various specialty plugs/fx/verbs.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 12:22:34 GMT -6
We are moving in to a different era. Security is becoming a major consideration and that is forcing the expense of constant updates on developers. Subscription is the equivalent of music streaming. It’s pretty inevitable. My best friend in high school went to MIT. He told me in 1966 not to study computer programming because it was all headed for the cloud with minimal local computers. The microprocessor delayed it but I suspect we’re still headed in the same direction. Interestingly, the most worthwhile plugins currently uncracked are from DSP pioneers. Those who write the best DSP code typically write the most effective copy protection. Sonnox, U-he, and Tokyo Dawn. The ilok 3 was mostly cracked last year due to a developer accidnelty posting an unencrypted executable. That’s probably why we saw a flurry of sales to make up the lost revenue.
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Post by OtisGreying on May 31, 2021 12:36:52 GMT -6
Personally ill never get a plugin subscription, I own like 30 UAD plugins and 10-15 others so I rarely feel I need another let alone to jump into a plug-in subscription. I feel like thats much more geared to someone just starting out, in that case, I can see the subscriptions getting more popular.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 12:45:31 GMT -6
Of course if you are in the minority making good income from recording then software subscriptions maybe cost effective especially if they can be deducted. However for the weekend warriors, those who only record for personal reasons or their friends for free, or on the cheap, I can see a reckoning coming. It seems to me that the subscription model for most plugin products is aimed much more squarely at the 'weekend warrior' market (they'd be fools not to, since, as you mentioned, there are a LOT more of those folks than people making their living doing audio work). I don't know that many (if any) of my colleagues are subscribers. Anywho, as an audio full-timer, I don't (and will never) purchase a subscription, with the possible exception of Pro Tools, because Avid has damn near made avoiding it an impossibility. I have a perpetual license for my personal use, and for my studio, but the difference between perpetual licenses and subscriptions are rather narrow. I'll likely renew them till PT gives me ARA, then I'll be happy to let the 'support' lapse. But who knows how long that will take to implement... Honestly, the current sales model of the subscription plans and bundles has forced me from ever using them. Look at plugin alliance. They have mostly decent but not great effects that are horrifically overpriced. There are a few standout utilitarian tools and then a bunch of stuff you’d use on a project if it was 20-50 bucks when you wanted it. But it’s rarely 20-50 bucks and the plugins are mostly not good or utilitarian enough to impulse buy. So what do I own from them? Neold V76U73 (this is useful in mastering) , SPL De-Reverber, Metric AB, and Pro Audio DSP DSM. The others are either not good enough for general use (black box, Phil’s cascade), have awful guis they refuse to update (Acme Opticom), no component modeling or something that’s pretty much a basic wave shaping function, or are shockingly medicore despite the marketing like the Lindell API, the true peak limiter, and the AMEK 200 EQ that claimed to be inspired by a GML 8200. A GML 8200 sounds good while the AMEK just had a digital clipper tacked on and ridiculous TMNT settings that would get any new analog eq returned or used one sent in for repair. Waves too. Yeah I can buy whatever I want for cheap but Waves update plan puts me off and they have nothing I need. I needed an EMI/Altec style comp plug this year. I ended up with PSP OldTimer because it’s the most usable and flexible. I got the Fairchildish functions I needed too. Even though it was the most expensive at 100 dollars, I didn’t want to give another dime to Kush and I hate, hate, hate Waves Central. The new TDR Collector is what Waves Central and Plugin Alliance downloader should have been. It just works at keeping my plugs up to date without leaving wave shells all over my computer. Waves too. Yeah I can buy whatever I want for cheap but Waves update plan puts me off and they have nothing I need. I needed an EMI/Altec style comp plug this year. I ended up with PSP OldTimer because it’s the most usable and flexible. I got the Fairchildish functions I needed. I don’t want to give another dime to Kush and hate Waves Central.The new TDR Collector is what Waves Central and Plugin Alliance downloader should have been. It just works at keeping my plugs up to date without leaving wave shells all over my computer. Meanwhile some of these endorsed plugs are good but I refuse to buy them due to who endorsed them. Why would I buy anything from someone whose digital productions sound like an line six and bad sample pack? That’s the opposite of advertising.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 13:31:10 GMT -6
It seems to me that the subscription model for most plugin products is aimed much more squarely at the 'weekend warrior' market (they'd be fools not to, since, as you mentioned, there are a LOT more of those folks than people making their living doing audio work). I don't know that many (if any) of my colleagues are subscribers. Anywho, as an audio full-timer, I don't (and will never) purchase a subscription, with the possible exception of Pro Tools, because Avid has damn near made avoiding it an impossibility. I have a perpetual license for my personal use, and for my studio, but the difference between perpetual licenses and subscriptions are rather narrow. I'll likely renew them till PT gives me ARA, then I'll be happy to let the 'support' lapse. But who knows how long that will take to implement... Honestly, the current sales model of the subscription plans and bundles has forced me from ever using them. Look at plugin alliance. They have mostly decent but not great effects that are horrifically overpriced. There are a few standout utilitarian tools and then a bunch of stuff you’d use on a project if it was 20-50 bucks when you wanted it. But it’s rarely 20-50 bucks and the plugins are mostly not good or utilitarian enough to impulse buy. So what do I own from them? Neold V76U73 (this is useful in mastering) , SPL De-Reverber, Metric AB, and Pro Audio DSP DSM. The others are either not good enough for general use (black box, Phil’s cascade), have awful guis they refuse to update (Acme Opticom), no component modeling or something that’s pretty much a basic wave shaping function, or are shockingly medicore despite the marketing like the Lindell API, the true peak limiter, and the AMEK 200 EQ that claimed to be inspired by a GML 8200. A GML 8200 sounds good while the AMEK just had a digital clipper tacked on and ridiculous TMNT settings that would get any new analog eq returned or used one sent in for repair. Waves too. Yeah I can buy whatever I want for cheap but Waves update plan puts me off and they have nothing I need. I needed an EMI/Altec style comp plug this year. I ended up with PSP OldTimer because it’s the most usable and flexible. I got the Fairchildish functions I needed. I don’t want to give another dime to Kush and hate Waves Central.The new TDR Collector is what Waves Central and Plugin Alliance downloader should have been. It just works at keeping my plugs up to date without leaving wave shells all over my computer. Meanwhile some of these endorsed plugs are good but I refuse to buy them due to who endorsed them. Why would I buy anything from someone whose digital productions sound like an line six and bad sample pack? That’s the opposite of advertising.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 31, 2021 14:44:47 GMT -6
The weekend warrior is clearly the principal market for audio software. Subscription lets beginners in a lot cheaper than I got in during the '90s.
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