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Post by thecolourfulway on May 17, 2021 17:12:49 GMT -6
I'm really probably being a little lazy here by asking instead of researching, but after spending some time investigating it seems that a lot of the kind of "classic" 8 track machines like 3M, Ampex or Scully don't have any sort of "locate" function. Later machines like MCI appear to have this, as well as more "modern" decks like Otari etc.
Can the older machines be modded for locate functions? I mean I am a serious student of vintage recording techniques but I am truly surprised at this recent discovery that perhaps many of these studios were operating without the ability to auto-locate!?
I would put auto-locate right at the top of my list of necessary features, so I'm wondering if I need to take Ampex and Scully off my list...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 17, 2021 17:40:22 GMT -6
I'm really probably being a little lazy here by asking instead of researching, but after spending some time investigating it seems that a lot of the kind of "classic" 8 track machines like 3M, Ampex or Scully don't have any sort of "locate" function. Later machines like MCI appear to have this, as well as more "modern" decks like Otari etc. Can the older machines be modded for locate functions? I mean I am a serious student of vintage recording techniques but I am truly surprised at this recent discovery that perhaps many of these studios were operating without the ability to auto-locate!? I would put auto-locate right at the top of my list of necessary features, so I'm wondering if I need to take Ampex and Scully off my list... The way it was explained to me many years ago by an Ampex rep was that for auto locate you need a transport designed around a logic based motor control so no my Ampex AG440 8 track will never have an auto locate function. |
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Post by EmRR on May 17, 2021 23:17:30 GMT -6
You listen in dim mode while shuttling and learn the sound of various parts in FF or RW pretty easily. You get used to it fast.
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 17, 2021 23:48:35 GMT -6
You listen in dim mode while shuttling and learn the sound of various parts in FF or RW pretty easily. You get used to it fast. Nice! I love that idea |
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 18, 2021 10:28:22 GMT -6
You listen in dim mode while shuttling and learn the sound of various parts in FF or RW pretty easily. You get used to it fast. Although the more I think about it, I don't love the idea of always having to drag the tape across the heads while locating |
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Post by mhbunch on May 18, 2021 11:23:13 GMT -6
My 70s Otari 7800 has a super unreliable tape counter that you can "guestimate" where you're at with.
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Post by ab101 on May 18, 2021 11:46:10 GMT -6
I thought my Tascam Tsr-8s did a good job with this.
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Post by EmRR on May 18, 2021 12:04:37 GMT -6
You listen in dim mode while shuttling and learn the sound of various parts in FF or RW pretty easily. You get used to it fast. Although the more I think about it, I don't love the idea of always having to drag the tape across the heads while locating You don't do it all the time, you learn pretty easily roughly how far something is, then shuttle the short durations. |
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Post by veggieryan on May 18, 2021 12:21:00 GMT -6
Otari MX-70, MTR-90, MCI and Studer made 1" 8 tracks with auto-locate.
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 18, 2021 20:50:42 GMT -6
Otari MX-70, MTR-90, MCI and Studer made 1" 8 tracks with auto-locate. Right, I’m starting to lean more towards an Otari...the 3Ms and Ampex look so great (and probably sound better) but I’m recording 100% on 8 track (Tascam 388 currently) so I mean all overdubs and mixing, not having locate seems like suuuch a buzzkill... |
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Post by delcampo on May 19, 2021 7:46:23 GMT -6
Otari MX-70, MTR-90, MCI and Studer made 1" 8 tracks with auto-locate. Right, I’m starting to lean more towards an Otari...the 3Ms and Ampex look so great (and probably sound better) but I’m recording 100% on 8 track (Tascam 388 currently) so I mean all overdubs and mixing, not having locate seems like suuuch a buzzkill... While I understand your preference, there are times I do miss auto locate, and found my previous Otari mx5050 pleasantly reliable ...I eventually choose the 440 for general enjoyment of using the machine & its sound. As well as it's tweak-abilty range re; alignment / biasing. If 3M & Scully were as commonly repairable, and parts accessible, would've been a tougher call. fwiw |
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 19, 2021 9:19:41 GMT -6
While I understand your preference, there are times I do miss auto locate, and found my previous Otari mx5050 pleasantly reliable ...I eventually choose the 440 for general enjoyment of using the machine & its sound. As well as it's tweak-abilty range re; alignment / biasing. If 3M & Scully were as commonly repairable, and parts accessible, would've been a tougher call. fwiw Are you doing all of your overdubs and mixing on the 440? That would be encouraging to hear because man, I would really love a 440 haha |
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Post by drumsound on May 19, 2021 9:55:10 GMT -6
Otari MX-70, MTR-90, MCI and Studer made 1" 8 tracks with auto-locate. Right, I’m starting to lean more towards an Otari...the 3Ms and Ampex look so great (and probably sound better) but I’m recording 100% on 8 track (Tascam 388 currently) so I mean all overdubs and mixing, not having locate seems like suuuch a buzzkill... It is a buzzkill. I've had situations where my locator wasn't working right and it sucks. While I understand your preference, there are times I do miss auto locate, and found my previous Otari mx5050 pleasantly reliable ...I eventually choose the 440 for general enjoyment of using the machine & its sound. As well as it's tweak-abilty range re; alignment / biasing. If 3M & Scully were as commonly repairable, and parts accessible, would've been a tougher call. fwiw Are you doing all of your overdubs and mixing on the 440? That would be encouraging to hear because man, I would really love a 440 haha If you leader the tape, it's pretty easy to get to the beginning of the track, which is good once you're mixing. |
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Post by delcampo on May 19, 2021 10:40:46 GMT -6
While I understand your preference, there are times I do miss auto locate, and found my previous Otari mx5050 pleasantly reliable ...I eventually choose the 440 for general enjoyment of using the machine & its sound. As well as it's tweak-abilty range re; alignment / biasing. If 3M & Scully were as commonly repairable, and parts accessible, would've been a tougher call. fwiw Are you doing all of your overdubs and mixing on the 440? That would be encouraging to hear because man, I would really love a 440 haha Not all but most. I also don't mix to tape too often but, good point above about using leader tape. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 19, 2021 10:59:22 GMT -6
This is your lesson of why we used to have TapeOps, these old machines were designed with the idea that there would be somebody sitting there just operating the tape machine using the leader tape method of marking tracks. Oh how far we have come of course it always seamed like the auto locator was always the most common problem with most later machines.
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 19, 2021 11:22:44 GMT -6
Ok so get the 440 and hire a tape op, got it!  Yes I could leader the tops, but damn those overdubs.... |
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Post by veggieryan on May 19, 2021 11:30:55 GMT -6
I'm sure the other machines sound better but my Otari's never break and the autolocator is 100% reliable. In the end what I hear is the unmistakable sound of countless particles of iron flying past the heads... It sounds like tape and it is glorious. I personally don't think digital audio will ever be able to match it. Probably not in PCM form at least in my opinion. There are tech's out there that upgrade the electronics on the Otari audio cards but I don't know that it's really needed since the sound I am getting is so much better for my ear than everything I have done digitally.
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 19, 2021 11:34:56 GMT -6
I'm sure the other machines sound better but my Otari's never break and the autolocator is 100% reliable. In the end what I hear is the unmistakable sound of countless particles of iron flying past the heads... It sounds like tape and it is glorious. I personally don't think digital audio will ever be able to match it...the sound I am getting is so much better for my ear than everything I have done digitally. Yeah, no disagreement from me. I’ve been happily doing records on the 388 for years now and while that is subpar in many ways (1/4”, 7.5ips, buncha ICs), it blows the doors off anything I ever did with a computer and the records sound fantastic. Of course I attribute much of that to the tape workflow even more than the sonics. Even though I’ve learned to work that 388 into a barely noticeable noise floor, I’m itching to move to 1” |
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Post by mhbunch on May 19, 2021 14:48:07 GMT -6
I'm sure the other machines sound better but my Otari's never break and the autolocator is 100% reliable. In the end what I hear is the unmistakable sound of countless particles of iron flying past the heads... It sounds like tape and it is glorious. I personally don't think digital audio will ever be able to match it...the sound I am getting is so much better for my ear than everything I have done digitally. Yeah, no disagreement from me. I’ve been happily doing records on the 388 for years now and while that is subpar in many ways (1/4”, 7.5ips, buncha ICs), it blows the doors off anything I ever did with a computer and the records sound fantastic. Of course I attribute much of that to the tape workflow even more than the sonics. Even though I’ve learned to work that 388 into a barely noticeable noise floor, I’m itching to move to 1” Just for what it’s worth - I mostly use the 1/2” 8 track 5050 instead of the 1” 7800. Reason 1 - tape cost/budgets. Reason 2 - reliability and auto locate. The noise floor isn’t noticeably different between our 2 machines. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 19, 2021 15:56:23 GMT -6
Let's see I can't think of the name of the company right now.
But years ago, when I had a Brenell Mini 8, and an Otari 7800 (both 1 inch 8 track machines)
I needed a auto locator.
It was an aftermarket company that sold this auto locater product.
Basically it was a arm that attached to the top of the tape deck that had a sensor in it.
It had some sort of industrial adhesive, and you set it up so that it looked over the edge of the left (supply)reel of tape.
This would capture the movement of the reels.
Now they also included these little black round sticky dots, that you would attach to the flange of the reel.
Every time they passed the sensor they would read out. giving you a sense of where the tape was, in minutes and seconds.
Funny enough it was a God send, way back when.
If I can remember the name I'll let you all know.
And who knows, I might still have it in a box somewhere?
haha
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Post by superwack on May 19, 2021 16:13:26 GMT -6
Ok so get the 440 and hire a tape op, got it! Yes I could leader the tops, but damn those overdubs.... Some guys I worked with had a tape James Guthrie had added leader to both sides of a single word so it can get pretty precise (although I don't think James works as a tape op much any more ) |
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Post by mhbunch on May 19, 2021 17:09:52 GMT -6
Let's see I can't think of the name of the company right now. But years ago, when I had a Brenell Mini 8, and an Otari 7800 (both 1 inch 8 track machines) I needed a auto locator. It was an aftermarket company that sold this auto locater product. Basically it was a arm that attached to the top of the tape deck that had a sensor in it. It had some sort of industrial adhesive, and you set it up so that it looked over the edge of the left (supply)reel of tape. This would capture the movement of the reels. Now they also included these little black round sticky dots, that you would attach to the flange of the reel. Every time they passed the sensor they would read out. giving you a sense of where the tape was, in minutes and seconds. Funny enough it was a God send, way back when. If I can remember the name I'll let you all know. And who knows, I might still have it in a box somewhere? haha I have one on top of my 7800!!!!! Not hooked up at the moment. I always thought it was a custom homemade one! Please let me know if you remember the name. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 19, 2021 18:37:14 GMT -6
The first Reel to reel I ever owned was an AKAI 2 track, think I was so damn smart I tried to do the leader location trick. I soon learned that paper leader tape was what engaged the auto reverse.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 19, 2021 19:17:51 GMT -6
Hey Bunch,
where did ya get your 7800?
Who knows, that might be my old one.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2021 19:26:24 GMT -6
My 70s Otari 7800 has a super unreliable tape counter that you can "guestimate" where you're at with. Yes indeed. Although I did manage to get hold of a basic autolocator for ours but could never get it to work before we sold it. I’m not sure but I may still have the auto locator stored somewhere. NOTE: Seems to be a bug in the file uploading app which causes some images to be rotated 90 degrees.  The song in this video was recorded on the MX7800 back in 2009 before I was involved in the studio. We only used the MX7800 once after I started engineering as it was clapped out and a nightmare to use. |
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