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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 14, 2021 12:22:46 GMT -6
Hey "real" engineers, I need some help.
I'm about to do my second session (ever) using mid/side overheads for drums and I'm not sure what the benefits are of centering over the snare versus the kick. I know I should "trust my ears" but there are downstream mix ramifications to either decision that I could use some experienced advice on. Last time I centered over snare but tilted the mics so that the plane created by the two mics ran from the snare to the kick beater. So it was over the snare but tilted right maybe 45 degrees or so.
It sounds ok and I'm happy with the drum tone, but the hat side of the side mic is getting mostly room sound instead of that half of the kit.
Am I explaining this well?
So is that just the limitations of m/s for overheads or would I be better off centering it in a different way. Center on kick just lined up with the kick pedal? Center on snare but don't do the tilt (but then kick would be off to the right).
Or am I just way off and there's a simpler answer?
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Post by EmRR on May 14, 2021 12:29:53 GMT -6
It's really the same problem with most stereo OH techniques, if you think about it. I tend to land between K and S, maybe slightly more K, then it can be narrowed if needed, even with respect to frequency.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 14, 2021 12:34:30 GMT -6
True. But I think the reason I'm in head about it on M/S is because I have to keep the Side signals balanced. I can't have the right side fader higher than the left once I process it. Right? Or am I wrong about that. I always assumed they had to be equal for phase consistency.
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Post by EmRR on May 14, 2021 12:50:53 GMT -6
True. But I think the reason I'm in head about it on M/S is because I have to keep the Side signals balanced. I can't have the right side fader higher than the left once I process it. Right? Or am I wrong about that. I always assumed they had to be equal for phase consistency. It's no different than panning any other stereo signal. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 14, 2021 12:59:03 GMT -6
True. But I think the reason I'm in head about it on M/S is because I have to keep the Side signals balanced. I can't have the right side fader higher than the left once I process it. Right? Or am I wrong about that. I always assumed they had to be equal for phase consistency. It's no different than panning any other stereo signal. Really? I somehow didn't realize that. So I can pan the sides unequally on a m/s setup? So basically what you're saying is that once you duplicate the Fig 8 mic and flip the phase, you can now treat it just like it was actually miked with two mics? This is mind blowing to me and a total game changer. Haha. I feel kinda dumb. |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 14, 2021 13:06:12 GMT -6
First off, you should totally download the MS matrix from Goodhertz. It is free and will decode(or encode) MS signals. You can also manipulate the width and gain in the plugin. goodhertz.co/midside-matrix/So you can then have a track with the Mid and one with the Side. Bus the outputs of your mono mid and mono side to a stereo Aux. Insert the Matrix plugin. Change the input for L|R to M|S. Done. Now you can either manipulate the width of the signal using the built in tools with the MS functions plus the standard stereo pans of the Aux to bring in one side a bit. Plus a bunch of other things that you can think of. As for placement, I typically think of it of a bit of an angle. So the snare and kick are in line but the crash and ride are the split. So if your looking down on the set its not a straight line out usually it's a bit angled like / if your sitting behind the set. More importantly though, place it, go listen to just the OH. Move it as needed. That will tell all things. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 14, 2021 13:29:24 GMT -6
More importantly though, place it, go listen to just the OH. Move it as needed. That will tell all things. Having a decoder (encoder?) would probably help with this. I've been doing it manually which makes it a bit inconvenient to test and move things. |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 14, 2021 13:44:55 GMT -6
More importantly though, place it, go listen to just the OH. Move it as needed. That will tell all things. Having a decoder (encoder?) would probably help with this. I've been doing it manually which makes it a bit inconvenient to test and move things. Simplifies everything really. Hell technically you could just record a stereo audio track and put the decoder on it and be done. Don't have to do the busing thing I was talking about. I like to do that in case I want to eq or something the mid different than the side. The goodhertz one works great though. No issues I've had. |
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Post by EmRR on May 14, 2021 14:08:47 GMT -6
Yeah i record MS to a stereo track and put an encoder plug on it, if I'm not using a hardware encoder. Done. Sometimes I'll print and save that encoder to another stereo track; that too can be undone.
I tend to use a passive hardware encoder I built on the way in.
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Post by jampa on May 14, 2021 15:49:21 GMT -6
Another option is M/S out in front of the kit, may be better or worse depending on the space
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Post by gouge on May 14, 2021 15:56:08 GMT -6
i use goodhertz too. nice plug.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 14, 2021 16:02:20 GMT -6
Another option is M/S out in front of the kit, may be better or worse depending on the space My room is pretty small. I can get decent sounds by being really careful about the use of gobos and I've got some clouds over the drums, but unless I intentionally want a kind of basement tapes vibe (which I sometimes do) I'm not sure that would work. Worth trying though. Now the that I've figured out a one mic stand situation for m/s it'll be easier to experiment. |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 14, 2021 17:47:58 GMT -6
Another option is M/S out in front of the kit, may be better or worse depending on the space agreed. Honestly how I use M/S with drums more than overheads. Never have really tried it as overheads though. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 15, 2021 1:44:12 GMT -6
Another option is M/S out in front of the kit, may be better or worse depending on the space agreed. Honestly how I use M/S with drums more than overheads. Never have really tried it as overheads though. I only really do four drum mics. Two overheads, kick, snare. So all energy is focused on re-imagining the overheads. I think I just don't really like the sound of close miked toms or hi-hat, so what else is there? Things I've never said... 1) Turn up the high hat 2) Turn up the toms 3) I've eaten so much shrimp I couldn't eat any more |
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Post by stormymondays on May 15, 2021 5:49:40 GMT -6
Tracing a line from kick center to snare center has always worked for me. I place the stereo overhead aiming at the space between kick and snare, and move back and forth a bit.
I love stereo front of kit as well!
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Post by jampa on May 17, 2021 3:29:32 GMT -6
I only really do four drum mics [Snip] so what else is there? 2 mics could go into a stereo array, either out front or behind the drums (will affect polarity of other mics) E.g. blumlein out front of kit and up high, pointing down 45° Other 2 mics to fill in. Not necessarily as spots. Maybe an omni between floor tom & ride, maybe a fig8 between snare & hat. Depends on your mic locker and free time Drummer has to get the concept too. They can't play as if everything will be quantised or sample replaced or "fixed". A bit more holistic and self balancing |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 17, 2021 7:28:22 GMT -6
I only really do four drum mics [Snip] so what else is there? 2 mics could go into a stereo array, either out front or behind the drums (will affect polarity of other mics) E.g. blumlein out front of kit and up high, pointing down 45° Other 2 mics to fill in. Not necessarily as spots. Maybe an omni between floor tom & ride, maybe a fig8 between snare & hat. Depends on your mic locker and free time Drummer has to get the concept too. They can't play as if everything will be quantised or sample replaced or "fixed". A bit more holistic and self balancing Key on all of this is getting the drummer bought in. I don’t think my room could tolerate an arrangement like that. But I do want to experiment front of kit. I can probably Gobo it up enough to make that work. Worth trying next time I have a day to mess around. |
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