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Post by scumbum on Apr 19, 2014 22:44:50 GMT -6
I like the older recordings I did in my garage on my 4-track . They might not sound as good "Sonicly" as what I can do now , but as far as replay value , vibe , energy.......I made much better "music" back then .
And I think we all can agree that SOMETHING is wrong with how music is recorded these days because all the best stuff was recorded before the DAW , when it was just a Mixer and a Tape Machine . Now I'm not saying that Tape , OTB , Console is the Holy Grail , because its not . But theres lazy methods or bad approaches to recording that I think everyone has fallen victim to because its the easy way .
So I wanna get back to the good old days when recording was FUN , music was better , more alive and more enjoyable to listen to .
So give me some advice on how to record the most Musical enjoyable Music I can record !! Because right now my 4-track days when I had no idea what i was doing are better than today !!
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Post by winetree on Apr 19, 2014 22:52:47 GMT -6
Real music, recorded with live musicians, playing together, little mistakes and all.
Making decisions on the spot and getting it done quickly. Very rewarding times.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 19, 2014 23:04:52 GMT -6
I think there is too much "fix it in the mix" mentality. I think we, the royal we, need to try to get the sounds we're after going to "tape", rather than relying on correction after the fact. Both tones and performance. Get the right tone with compression and eq if necessary on the way in. Get the best performance instead of relying on cut/paste or autotune or beat detective stuff or samples or whatever. All playing in the same room is almost another lost art. I think that these things can help bring some soul back anyway.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 19, 2014 23:05:40 GMT -6
Real music, recorded with live musicians, playing together, little mistakes and all. Making decisions on the spot and getting it done quickly. Very rewarding times. Beat me to the punch. We're on the same page here I guess. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 19, 2014 23:08:50 GMT -6
One thing is latency...I think people fight it and not know it. Those little tape decks had zero latency and forced you to play a song not pieces.
I remember being young with a 4 track with no rules...it was fun! I recorded a mono drum track and bass and then bounced that to 1 track and then put a scratch acoustic, did two vocal tracks bounced that to the scratch guitar track and put e guitar and a acoustic down! I had to play tight, I still have those cassettes somewhere???
This is coming from a songwriters/musicians perspective not an engineers.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 20, 2014 0:14:35 GMT -6
wow! great advise from all you guys, my 2 cents would be similar, a group of guys playing music like it's the most important thing their ever gonna do, passion and intensity translates, no one who sits in a cubical all day wants to hear a band cutting and pasting between bites of their sandwich, they want drama and escape from the drabs of everyday life.
What i'm saying is, it's about heartfelt testifying to tape, imperfections and all, it's truthful and believable that way. I think it's universal human trait, if someone doesn't believe you, they turn you or your music off pretty darn quick.
thats the way i see it anyway lol
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2014 7:19:06 GMT -6
Actually, i like the way music technically sounds these days. I may not like the content, lyrics, or styles, but i don't mind the perfection of it at all. I find the older recording styles to be kinda sloppy.
Maybe it's different as a person who records others a lot, when someone tells me they don't want to be "over produced" or they want a more "natural" sound, it's usually because they don't want to pay for the extra time to get it right, or they don't want to put in the extra 20 takes to get it right.
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Post by henge on Apr 20, 2014 7:24:48 GMT -6
Man I miss the days of the band in a great room doing 2 or 3 takes of a very well rehearsed arrangement. It's been years since I did that. I have to agree that's one of the major things that has changed that has taken great feel out of alot of productions.
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2014 9:06:17 GMT -6
So lemme ask you this.. what exactly is the difference between a guy listening through headphones to his band mate in the next room, And a guy listening through headphones to his band mate that was in the next room 2 hours ago?
Nothing.
I really think guys are blaming the wrong cause for your unhappiness with music.
Millions of other people seem to think music today is fine, maybe you guys are just behind the times?
I mean, there used to be lots of people unhappy with the change from the idea that the earth wasn't flat anymore..
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 20, 2014 10:31:48 GMT -6
Maybe it's more about collaboration. We do less of it these days.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 20, 2014 10:37:50 GMT -6
So lemme ask you this.. what exactly is the difference between a guy listening through headphones to his band mate in the next room, And a guy listening through headphones to his band mate that was in the next room 2 hours ago? Nothing. I really think guys are blaming the wrong cause for your unhappiness with music. Millions of other people seem to think music today is fine, maybe you guys are just behind the times? I mean, there used to be lots of people unhappy with the change from the idea that the earth wasn't flat anymore.. other than the fact you are utterly wrong, such a belittling conviction of other peoples opinions/responses to a legit question, in such a subjective arena, is simply obtuse. AND THAT IS ME BITING MY TONGUE SVART IMO, A lot of great groups would fall apart in an overdub situation(see below, pay particular attention to 2:20 on the first vid, these guys are all over each other)I've been at this game a long time, one thing that has always held true, musicianship is a human interaction, listening, looking, laughing, raising your eyebrows as to say "hell yeah, you're killing it", accelerando, or legato at the ending of a rock or jazz tune requires complete communication between bandmates, using all their senses, and YES this is what creates excitement, a click is an emotion killer to REAL musicians in a real band. The day an overdub session equals the excitement and joy of the Band experience, is the day i quit music. |
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Post by henge on Apr 20, 2014 10:46:22 GMT -6
So lemme ask you this.. what exactly is the difference between a guy listening through headphones to his band mate in the next room, And a guy listening through headphones to his band mate that was in the next room 2 hours ago? Nothing. I really think guys are blaming the wrong cause for your unhappiness with music. Millions of other people seem to think music today is fine, maybe you guys are just behind the times? I mean, there used to be lots of people unhappy with the change from the idea that the earth wasn't flat anymore.. I remember when I was gigging and there were nights when the band was magic. It didn't even feel like I was playing. I was just IN the music with the other guys. That doesn't happen with over dubbing and punching. Capture one of those performances and you have a special thing. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 20, 2014 11:14:57 GMT -6
I remember when I was gigging and there were nights when the band was magic. It didn't even feel like I was playing. I was just IN the music with the other guys.That doesn't happen with over dubbing and punching. Capture one of those performances and you have a special thing. I've thought this from the beginning Anton, "i will jam with that dude eventually", and i still believe it to be true! 8) |
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Post by henge on Apr 20, 2014 11:39:36 GMT -6
Cool! That's a great thought Tony.
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Post by wiz on Apr 20, 2014 15:07:44 GMT -6
There is a huge difference between playing together, and playing as an overdub. Huge.
Have you done much live playing?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by formatcyes on Apr 20, 2014 16:05:10 GMT -6
Maybe it's more about collaboration. We do less of it these days. I agree this is the problem I am a guitarist, But I also learnt the key's and drums which I can play arrrh badly but when I get in a room with great musos thats when the magic happens. The great music from bands that have been together/travelling for years is what we are missing out on now. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 20, 2014 16:13:36 GMT -6
Yeah - it's often easier and cheaper for me to do everything myself. Which I probably ultimately suffer for.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 20, 2014 16:39:11 GMT -6
The problem with overdubbing is that the other musicians don't respond to the person overdubbing and can't fix any problems with the arrangement. It's really the long way around. Add headphones screwing up the pitch and dynamics and the latency of a digital feed and people are performing with tremendous handicaps.
After I quit Motown I started volunteering for a public radio station. They had an old RCA broadcast board from the late '40s, 2 RCA 44s and 2 Neumann U67s. I was floored by what one could do recording a group of musicians live with no headphones. A few years ago I learned that major label studios typically used 4 mikes prior to the mid '50s when three track came in at which point three 4 input mixers became standard and remained so into the mid '60s.
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2014 17:52:36 GMT -6
So with everyone throwing out "you're wrong!" And failing to see that my opinion is just as valid as yours, i can see why things have changed.
Honestly, If a musician can't play their parts in the studio without having to lean on others to get it right, then they need to go practice until they can, or another musician should take their place.
The studio is for recording. Practice time is where you write your song, work out arrangements and get tight. Too many bands roll into the studio unprepared and blame the engineer or producer or gear for their failure.
Unfortunately, you guys are trying to blame an idea of something, rather than the musicians who should be making sure it's right.
And yes, I'm aware that i have an unpopular view point, and yes i used to gig before i started recording. I know where you guys are coming from, but to blindly say that it's "the times" is just glossing over the fine points in an effort to vent your frustration.
It's like blaming "pit bulls" for being a bad breed, even though there are 4 distinct styles of bully, and far fewer attacks than those from other terriers.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2014 18:28:35 GMT -6
So with everyone throwing out "you're wrong!" And failing to see that my opinion is just as valid as yours, i can see why things have changed. Honestly, If a musician can't play their parts in the studio without having to lean on others to get it right, then they need to go practice until they can, or another musician should take their place. The studio is for recording. Practice time is where you write your song, work out arrangements and get tight. Too many bands roll into the studio unprepared and blame the engineer or producer or gear for their failure. Unfortunately, you guys are trying to blame an idea of something, rather than the musicians who should be making sure it's right. And yes, I'm aware that i have an unpopular view point, and yes i used to gig before i started recording. I know where you guys are coming from, but to blindly say that it's "the times" is just glossing over the fine points in an effort to vent your frustration. It's like blaming "pit bulls" for being a bad breed, even though there are 4 distinct styles of bully, and far fewer attacks than those from other terriers. Actually your viewpoint is the popular one nowadays . On this forum , probably not , but in general your into whats going on now in the music world . I'm stuck about 15-20 years ago . People like the music of today or it wouldn't be getting made . You show a younger person some music thats older and they aren't interested . |
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2014 18:37:28 GMT -6
So for me , a one man band , I gotta overdub . Drums first then everything else .
Other guys have done it successfully , Paul McCartney , Dave Grohl.....
Should I aim for one solid take instead of editing ? Well some editing is ok , like taking the first half of the song from one take and the second half from another . Beatles did that alot . But never rely on it , go for the full solid takes .
I know for some types of music the click is not good , like the music Tony posted . But theres rock music that was tracked to a click thats great like all the Metallica albums before the Black Album .
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2014 19:55:58 GMT -6
So for me , a one man band , I gotta overdub . Drums first then everything else . Other guys have done it successfully , Paul McCartney , Dave Grohl..... Should I aim for one solid take instead of editing ? Well some editing is ok , like taking the first half of the song from one take and the second half from another . Beatles did that alot . But never rely on it , go for the full solid takes . I know for some types of music the click is not good , like the music Tony posted . But theres rock music that was tracked to a click thats great like all the Metallica albums before the Black Album . Absolutely what I'm saying. It can be done and has been done plenty of times. For people to blindly blame something means they are on a witch hunt. Recording processes aren't the bogeyman. They've built on what works over time. I still have to say, if you aren't into how music sounds today, then maybe you aren't evolving with it. I like oldies, just like i like New music. I like the old styles and the new styles, the old messages and the new. Music is music and to proclaim that something is broken just because somone doesn't like it is only showing that they believe their own ideas are superior, which only comes across arrogant and self centered. |
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2014 20:52:08 GMT -6
So for me , a one man band , I gotta overdub . Drums first then everything else . Other guys have done it successfully , Paul McCartney , Dave Grohl..... Should I aim for one solid take instead of editing ? Well some editing is ok , like taking the first half of the song from one take and the second half from another . Beatles did that alot . But never rely on it , go for the full solid takes . I know for some types of music the click is not good , like the music Tony posted . But theres rock music that was tracked to a click thats great like all the Metallica albums before the Black Album . Absolutely what I'm saying. It can be done and has been done plenty of times. For people to blindly blame something means they are on a witch hunt. Recording processes aren't the bogeyman. They've built on what works over time. I still have to say, if you aren't into how music sounds today, then maybe you aren't evolving with it. I like oldies, just like i like New music. I like the old styles and the new styles, the old messages and the new. Music is music and to proclaim that something is broken just because somone doesn't like it is only showing that they believe their own ideas are superior, which only comes across arrogant and self centered. I know what your saying , I agree , But......there is a difference in the recording process today and that is what gives Modern Music its sound . If you take away the DAW and computer and go back to how they had to record with tape , Music would not have the sound it does today . You couldn't do what you can do today . So it would force people to approach recording their music differently , more organically . I'm not knocking the DAW and computer , I think they are great . And if people like the sound of today thats their choice and they can make the music they like . But my thing is I don't want to evolve . I want to make music sound like the music I grew up listening to . The DAW has just complicated things for me in my opinion and made being Lazy with making music alot easier . Bad Habits of piecing together a song rather than really playing it . There is a bit of the Bogeyman in the modern recording process for me and I'm trying to figure out where it is . |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 20, 2014 21:24:28 GMT -6
So with everyone throwing out "you're wrong!" And failing to see that my opinion is just as valid as yours, i can see why things have changed. Honestly, If a musician can't play their parts in the studio without having to lean on others to get it right, then they need to go practice until they can, or another musician should take their place. The studio is for recording. Practice time is where you write your song, work out arrangements and get tight. Too many bands roll into the studio unprepared and blame the engineer or producer or gear for their failure. Unfortunately, you guys are trying to blame an idea of something, rather than the musicians who should be making sure it's right. And yes, I'm aware that i have an unpopular view point, and yes i used to gig before i started recording. I know where you guys are coming from, but to blindly say that it's "the times" is just glossing over the fine points in an effort to vent your frustration. It's like blaming "pit bulls" for being a bad breed, even though there are 4 distinct styles of bully, and far fewer attacks than those from other terriers. Dude...calm down. Nobody is pissing on your opinion...You seem to be getting a little worked up about it. If you don't believe what I believe - that's fine...I'm not going to try and convince you. But it seems you're overreacting a little. Who's saying you shouldn't be prepared when you come into the studio? Who's saying they're absolutely and totally against any overdubbing? Who's saying they aren't into modern music (I have about ten cuts so far this year)?? I don't think there's ONE right way to do anything. But why is this thread starting to unravel? It's a mystery to me... |
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Post by formatcyes on Apr 21, 2014 4:40:07 GMT -6
So for me , a one man band , I gotta overdub . Drums first then everything else . Other guys have done it successfully , Paul McCartney , Dave Grohl..... Should I aim for one solid take instead of editing ? Well some editing is ok , like taking the first half of the song from one take and the second half from another . Beatles did that alot . But never rely on it , go for the full solid takes . I know for some types of music the click is not good , like the music Tony posted . But theres rock music that was tracked to a click thats great like all the Metallica albums before the Black Album . Absolutely what I'm saying. It can be done and has been done plenty of times. For people to blindly blame something means they are on a witch hunt. Recording processes aren't the bogeyman. They've built on what works over time. I still have to say, if you aren't into how music sounds today, then maybe you aren't evolving with it. I like oldies, just like i like New music. I like the old styles and the new styles, the old messages and the new. Music is music and to proclaim that something is broken just because somone doesn't like it is only showing that they believe their own ideas are superior, which only comes across arrogant and self centered. I think its the writing that suffers when you have a great group of musos the initial idea for a song changes as they add their bits drums, guitar, keys, and vocal bouncing off each other. The "evolving" is more a matter of economic necessary. If money was no object collaboration would be way more common and groups staying together for long periods of time would be the norm. Because music now has very little value holding a group of talented musos together long enough for great song's to appear is very very rare. Not really evolving more contracting. |
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