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Post by thehightenor on Jan 25, 2021 15:43:11 GMT -6
Hi guys,
I'm interested in investing in a new tube pre for tracking vocals (my only tube pre is a Millennia STT-1)
I also have a BAE 1073D that does sound very good.
I have a bright tenor voice, and I use a Wunder CM7 (occasionally BLUW Kiwi or a SM7)
I was going to go for a Mercury M72 mk2 as I's heard they are good on bright sources for taming the tip
of the flame a bit (so to speak)
But the new darling on the block are the Coil pre's and those extra controls like the NF knob seem to
allow for some useful tweaking?
It's tricky at the moment to get demo's so does anyone have experience with both the Coils and the Mercury.
I know demoing is the true test - but .... some user feedback would be very useful.
Thanks
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2021 15:54:22 GMT -6
Just curious why you aren’t considering the Weightank 72 ?
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 25, 2021 17:22:04 GMT -6
Just curious why you aren’t considering the Weightank 72 ? Well, I'm sure it's really good but it's less than half the price of the Mercury and I was looking for something with just a little bit more of an "esoteric build approach" like the Mercury or Coils (if you know what I mean) It's from the Locomotive cost effective range, Locomotive also do full on hand wired stuff too that is very expensive and I'm sure also truly superb. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2021 17:39:10 GMT -6
To each their own !  happy sleuthing! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 2:28:44 GMT -6
To each their own ! happy sleuthing! Thanks. I just noticed on the Coil website you can swop out the transformers on the module version. So nice, so tempting and so flipping expensive with that frame needed to be bought seperately! |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 26, 2021 2:47:43 GMT -6
Kinda left field, but have you considered using a ribbon mic sometimes? I bet something like an AEA 44/R84 or Coles 4038... Would sound excellent for your voice, and a worthy addition. You sounded great on that "Roxanne" clip I heard BTW. Chris P.S. If/when I get my first quality ribbon, the Samar AL-95 is also on my radar. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 26, 2021 3:58:21 GMT -6
Coil Audio, Locomotive Audio, & Mercury all are great companies w/ high quality gear. CA & LA take great pride in their products sound quality & design. They both contribute to RGO & are members here so you would be supporting a peer’s small business! That’s where my $ would go! vintageking.com/coil-audio-ca-286s-single-channel-mic-line-amplifierThis link ^ shows the power supply comes WITH this single channel version for $1700. It uses all NOS parts as well & is quite a bit more fair priced than the Mercury M72 mk3 which is $2100 vs Coil $1700. Coil is giving you that good vintage NOS EF86 vibes in your life! Sounds esoteric to me They source, select, & test the BEST NOS parts for your preamp. I have read that people like to upgrade the tubes in the M72. Idk I feel a unit of that caliber should come with the NOS tubes people swap too. The Mercury is 28-58 db of gain like the originals. The WT72 has 50+ dB of gain, the Coil Audio 42-60 dB of gain. The CA 286 & Locomotive stuff is hand built & tested in USA. Check out a Locomotive 286a if you can find one. Locomotive provides a lifetime warranty as well. Coil audio is 1 year, would like to see 2 years at least. However I very highly doubt the Coil guys would a customer SOL. www.locomotiveaudio.com/wt-72Seeing as this circuit is based around EF86s & beefy transformers, If $$$ wasn’t an issue I’d get Coil Audio 286 x 2 & 2 Weight Tank WT 72. If $$$ is priority I would grab 2 WT72 & get to making music. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 6:57:33 GMT -6
Kinda left field, but have you considered using a ribbon mic sometimes? I bet something like an AEA 44/R84 or Coles 4038... Would sound excellent for your voice, and a worthy addition. You sounded great on that "Roxanne" clip I heard BTW. Chris P.S. If/when I get my first quality ribbon, the Samar AL-95 is also on my radar. Chris, thanks for the positive comment. I have an AEA R92 I've been using on a guitar cab, it's designed for close micing stuff, but I guess it might lend it's self to vocals too I will try it out, I hadn't really consider it before. I've done a few vocals with a Beyer M88 I've liked for some tracks, also an SM7 works at times. Mics are never ending for me .... I'd love to try out great 251 (Bock, Upton, Tele etc) but they're beyond the budget currently. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 7:03:57 GMT -6
Coil Audio, Locomotive Audio, & Mercury all are great companies w/ high quality gear. CA & LA take great pride in their products sound quality & design. They both contribute to RGO & are members here so you would be supporting a peer’s small business! That’s where my $ would go! vintageking.com/coil-audio-ca-286s-single-channel-mic-line-amplifierThis link ^ shows the power supply comes WITH this single channel version for $1700. It uses all NOS parts as well & is quite a bit more fair priced than the Mercury M72 mk3 which is $2100 vs Coil $1700. Coil is giving you that good vintage NOS EF86 vibes in your life! Sounds esoteric to me They source, select, & test the BEST NOS parts for your preamp. I have read that people like to upgrade the tubes in the M72. Idk I feel a unit of that caliber should come with the NOS tubes people swap too. The Mercury is 28-58 db of gain like the originals. The WT72 has 50+ dB of gain, the Coil Audio 42-60 dB of gain. The CA 286 & Locomotive stuff is hand built & tested in USA. Check out a Locomotive 286a if you can find one. Locomotive provides a lifetime warranty as well. Coil audio is 1 year, would like to see 2 years at least. However I very highly doubt the Coil guys would a customer SOL. www.locomotiveaudio.com/wt-72Seeing as this circuit is based around EF86s & beefy transformers, If $$$ wasn’t an issue I’d get Coil Audio 286 x 2 & 2 Weight Tank WT 72. If $$$ is priority I would grab 2 WT72 & get to making music. Thanks for that feedback. I'm a touch confused though, aren't the Coil 286 and WT72 based on a similar design (EF86)? Would I be better off longer term with a WT72 and Coil CA-70 .... wouldn't that cover more tonal territory and options? - I don't need stereo I should add. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 26, 2021 7:36:53 GMT -6
We had the pleasure of using the CA-70 when we shared a booth with Coil at the last Anaheim NAMM. It was killer. I’ll be getting at least one when my studio opens up.
Likewise, I’ve gotten to know Eric at Locomotive a bit, and that’s some
fantastic gear as well. And I definitely wouldn’t consider the Weight Tank line to be compromised in any way.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 7:46:55 GMT -6
We had the pleasure of using the CA-70 when we shared a booth with Coil at the last Anaheim NAMM. It was killer. I’ll be getting at least one when my studio opens up. Likewise, I’ve gotten to know Eric at Locomotive a bit, and that’s some fantastic gear as well. And I definitely wouldn’t consider the Weight Tank line to be compromised in any way. Great feedback - thanks. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 26, 2021 10:41:36 GMT -6
All IMO - I own 2 Coil CA70S's, 2 Tank WT72's, and a single (2 channels) Locomotive 286A. LOVE all of em. I do not have any mercury - nor have I ever had the good fortune to use them.
As far as build quality - both the Coils and Weight Tanks fall in the same zone. In no way should the WT's be considered a "lesser build. The locomotive line is up another step UP in build quality yet, but at this point, I don't think the Locomotive 286 (not to be confused with the Coil 286) are currently available. Eric is re-designing them.
All 3 of the above mentioned pre's are quite different. Actually, strangely enough I'd guess as of recently - the WT72's have been getting the most use. I won't even discus the Locomotive 286A as it's not an option at this point...
The WT72's are elegant, euphonic, not too fast and not too slow, large sounding and just work well with the Heiserman H47T mic that's been getting the most vocal work lately. A killer, beautiful and "out of the way" presentation. Really, I guess "elegant" is the best one word descriptor for me on that one.
The Coil CA70S's - fantastic pre's as well. They are VERY retro sounding to me though. HUGE, massive, and really beefy. Love them on drums. They definitely have a sonic "imprint" that you can hear while the WT72's are a bit less so. To be honest, if you want Coil for all around vocal use, I'd probably point towards their 286 unless unmitigated vintage is your thing. The NF and LF controls do give a lot of control, but if you're already "in the zone" - they might be a bit much. All in all a killer piece that - FOR ME - is a bit more niche specific.
I wouldn't want to let go of any of them, but if forced to, I'd probably keep the WT72's. Those have been a glorious find for me. Really sweet.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 11:52:07 GMT -6
All IMO - I own 2 Coil CA70S's, 2 Tank WT72's, and a single (2 channels) Locomotive 286A. LOVE all of em. I do not have any mercury - nor have I ever had the good fortune to use them. As far as build quality - both the Coils and Weight Tanks fall in the same zone. In no way should the WT's be considered a "lesser build. The locomotive line is up another step UP in build quality yet, but at this point, I don't think the Locomotive 286 (not to be confused with the Coil 286) are currently available. Eric is re-designing them. All 3 of the above mentioned pre's are quite different. Actually, strangely enough I'd guess as of recently - the WT72's have been getting the most use. I won't even discus the Locomotive 286A as it's not an option at this point... The WT72's are elegant, euphonic, not too fast and not too slow, large sounding and just work well with the Heiserman H47T mic that's been getting the most vocal work lately. A killer, beautiful and "out of the way" presentation. Really, I guess "elegant" is the best one word descriptor for me on that one. The Coil CA70S's - fantastic pre's as well. They are VERY retro sounding to me though. HUGE, massive, and really beefy. Love them on drums. They definitely have a sonic "imprint" that you can hear while the WT72's are a bit less so. To be honest, if you want Coil for all around vocal use, I'd probably point towards their 286 unless unmitigated vintage is your thing. The NF and LF controls do give a lot of control, but if you're already "in the zone" - they might be a bit much. All in all a killer piece that - FOR ME - is a bit more niche specific. I wouldn't want to let go of any of them, but if forced to, I'd probably keep the WT72's. Those have been a glorious find for me. Really sweet. Great feedback, thanks Doc! High praise indeed for the W72! It's literally less than half the price of the Mercury M72 so it sounds like from what your saying it's definitely not half the sound quality! I have been thinking the Coil CA-70 is probably a bit too retro for my vocals and I don't record real drums so it would be mainly for vocals, ac guitar possibly bass. Perhaps the W72 is the right pick .... much to consider I have. |
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Post by dreamsambas on Jan 26, 2021 12:07:16 GMT -6
A lot of great advice here already. Have never used the CA70 but I have used the Gates SA-series pres that they are based on.
When people say they sound retro, they mean really retro. Old timey. 40s or early 50s. Sort of a smokey or velvety sound. Frequency balance leans towards dark. Julie London's Cry Me a River.
If I were using a 47 style mic, which already has lots of character, I'd go for something a little more balanced. Like the weight tank or Mercury.
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Post by dougwendal on Jan 26, 2021 14:01:12 GMT -6
I own a CA70S and echo drbill's thoughts.
The CA70S is a beast. It has a huge sonic footprint. I really like it on electric guitars and bass. I also like running other mic pre's into it via line input. With the NF one can get some nice tonal textures. I don't record drums, so no experience there. Also, I don't prefer it when recording finger picking acoustic, but that could be the (Martin D-35) guitar as well. It might be great with a different acoustic. Vocals, I'd say it depends on the mic, singer and song.
The CA70S isn't a one size fits all mic pre, but it is great at what it does. I'd like to add a WT-72 or even a CA286S to compliment it. I heard the CA286S at NAMM last year, but I've never heard the WT-72.
It seems the WT-72 would work well on many different sources, while one needs to be selective with the CA70S. But, the CA70S is pretty amazing when paired with the right source. I'm really happy to own one and it has definitely improved my recordings.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 26, 2021 14:51:37 GMT -6
The CA/SA-70 comments are funny to me. I've made a lot of rock and pop records with Gates SA preamps over the years. I've done a lot of acoustic guitars, all styles, with them.
One thing that is true about them, they flatline about +14 so if you drive one like it's anything remotely modern and shoot for similar levels, it's gonna be fuzzy. You have to hit pretty conservative max levels with them. The distortion isn't as apparent as one would expect. Try tracking drums with dynamic mics and leave gain wide open, look at how they act like limiters and may not even sound 'distorted'. You won't get that out of the other types.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 15:44:03 GMT -6
I've been using a Retro STA Level for my vocal tracking compressor (which might be the same generation design wise with the SA-70?) so maybe a 47 > CA-70 > STA Level is a tough too much colour for my vocal sound.
I have access to cleaner learner vari-mu compressors too - like the TC Phoenix.
I'm organising a demo of the Mercury M72 mk3 as a starting point, I can also get a demo of the Coils too - but not the W72 unfortunately.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 26, 2021 16:01:22 GMT -6
I've been using a Retro STA Level for my vocal tracking compressor (which might be the same generation design wise with the SA-70?) so maybe a 47 > CA-70 > STA Level is a tough too much colour for my vocal sound. I have access to cleaner learner vari-mu compressors too - like the TC Phoenix. I'm organising a demo of the Mercury M72 mk3 as a starting point, I can also get a demo of the Coils too - but not the W72 unfortunately. If you're in New England and want to check out the Weight Tank or Locomotive, shoot me a DM. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 16:29:41 GMT -6
I've been using a Retro STA Level for my vocal tracking compressor (which might be the same generation design wise with the SA-70?) so maybe a 47 > CA-70 > STA Level is a tough too much colour for my vocal sound. I have access to cleaner learner vari-mu compressors too - like the TC Phoenix. I'm organising a demo of the Mercury M72 mk3 as a starting point, I can also get a demo of the Coils too - but not the W72 unfortunately. If you're in New England and want to check out the Weight Tank or Locomotive, shoot me a DM. You're very kind .... but unfortunately I'm only close in name not in geography, I'm in the UK. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 26, 2021 16:38:46 GMT -6
I've been using a Retro STA Level for my vocal tracking compressor (which might be the same generation design wise with the SA-70?) so maybe a 47 > CA-70 > STA Level is a tough too much colour for my vocal sound. STA is VERY different, some would say actually complementary. It's almost a decade later, FWIW. CA-70 is single ended low feedback so distortion is heavy 2nd harmonic. STA is push-pull so very little 2nd harmonic, predominately 3rd harmonic (like tape, or transformers). The Q is prob whether ANY vari-mu is suitable with a tube pre for what you want. The other pre's in question are also single ended, but much more feedback so mainly 2nd harmonic but at a greatly reduced level, with a sharper transition into overload. Cleaner closer to transition into overload than CA-70. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 16:55:13 GMT -6
I've been using a Retro STA Level for my vocal tracking compressor (which might be the same generation design wise with the SA-70?) so maybe a 47 > CA-70 > STA Level is a tough too much colour for my vocal sound. STA is VERY different, some would say actually complementary. It's almost a decade later, FWIW. CA-70 is single ended low feedback so distortion is heavy 2nd harmonic. STA is push-pull so very little 2nd harmonic, predominately 3rd harmonic (like tape, or transformers). The Q is prob whether ANY vari-mu is suitable with a tube pre for what you want. The other pre's in question are also single ended, but much more feedback so mainly 2nd harmonic but at a greatly reduced level, with a sharper transition into overload. Cleaner closer to transition into overload than CA-70. Thanks EmRR .... all this extra info is very interesting - a lot to take in for a layman like me. I know Dave Gilmour (Pink Floyd) uses a Sony C800G > V72 (original of course!) in an EAR 660 (very expensive vari MU) so I guess it can work with the right voice. But I get the impression a better combo if I want to use the STA Level is stick with my BAE 1073. Mmmh, I feel myself going down the proverbial rabbit hole here |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 26, 2021 16:56:46 GMT -6
Mmmh, I feel myself going down the proverbial rabbit hole here So many options! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 26, 2021 17:14:28 GMT -6
You're right!
A friend just said I should consider the Tree Audio Branch Mk2 - Tube pre and otpo comp channel from the designers
of the original Inward Connections.
I just thought no more options, please!!
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 26, 2021 18:23:23 GMT -6
I suggested both ( Coil & WT ) because they both cover a lot of sonic territory and compliment each other instead of being redundant. You got lots of good feedback here from users of both.
W/ the traditional gain on the Mercury it may not have enough gain for dynamics & ribbons but that is more of a thought not a concern or a don’t buy b/c statement.
Let’s us know how the demos go!
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Post by EmRR on Jan 26, 2021 18:36:12 GMT -6
OH, another thing about CA/SA-70, I said it somewhere else also, on max level, 6dBm (anything from -12 to -18dBFS on various converters) is already almost 2% distortion at 10kHz, 0.5% at 3kHz, 1% at 30Hz. There's yer warm and fuzzy!
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happy sleuthing!
