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Post by chessparov on Jan 17, 2021 17:23:36 GMT -6
Probably most of you already know about this.
Is it cool with you guys, if we focus on his professional side (not the personal)?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jan 17, 2021 17:36:45 GMT -6
Oh I was about to make a really bad joke to get it out of the way, but I'll skip it.
Probably his early "girl" stuff made the most impression on me, when I heard it, and it's been a long time since.
The "wall of sound" thing I have always been a fan of. It seems like pop music is more minimalistic now, but some of it still has that "wall," probably a good bit. It's a great sound.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 17, 2021 17:49:38 GMT -6
I am so torn on this one. This happens from time to time when someone who's work you respect does something so heinous.
A great producer, a pathetic murderer.
I will say his work moved me as a youngster and had a great influence on me.
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Post by Ward on Jan 17, 2021 18:17:53 GMT -6
Probably most of you already know about this. Is it cool with you guys, if we focus on his professional side (not the personal)? Thanks, Chris I tried . . . I can't do it. |
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Post by Michael O. on Jan 17, 2021 18:18:54 GMT -6
I subscribe to a certain extent to “the death of the author” concept of critique (that is, considering an artist’s oeuvre separately from their lived life), so speaking solely in regards to his production work the man was undeniably somewhat of a genius, and that work is a big influence on my own. The Ronettes stuff in particular still informs my own use (overuse?) of reverb and ambience when producing and mixing pop music. That overtly artificial and yet somehow paradoxically natural sense of space that he helped pioneer (sort of... I guess in reality the arguably similar work of producers like Joe Meek prefigured Spector’s) is one of those things that, for me, clearly separates what is possible in recorded music from what is possible with live music. It’s inimitable studio magic in the truest sense, and I find it exciting and evocative when used properly.
Having said that, his decisions occasionally went beyond what I would consider good taste (again, only speaking about his work...that goes without saying for his deeds), and that excess in and of itself helped me to realize that there can be too much of a good thing in a mix, and that some things are best when some degree of moderation is exercised. I remember when I was a kid reading an interview with George Harrison (in some music mag in the ‘90s) where he, like 25 years later, still regretted the overuse of reverb and echo on All Things Must Pass. That concept, a truly great artist lamenting the producer’s arguably unnecessary contributions to an otherwise nearly-flawless work, is something that really affected me, and is something I actively work to avoid in my own career. I consider it a cardinal studio sin to allow domineering production preferences to spoil the intentions of the artist.
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Post by ab101 on Jan 17, 2021 18:32:00 GMT -6
Well, professionally he had issues with human relations. But he obviously had producing techniques that were well loved early on, including in the time of mono recordings, and yes I agree with the above, about how later his techniques led to excess with Leonard Cohen, etc.
His father committed suicide when he was young. I wonder what that did to him?
There is only one true judge, and it is not me.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 17, 2021 18:35:01 GMT -6
Probably most of you already know about this. Is it cool with you guys, if we focus on his professional side (not the personal)? Thanks, Chris I tried . . . I can't do it. Totally understandable. It was also challenging for me emotionally (to say the least), when I first found out, about Joe Meek's murder of his Landlady and suicide. Chris |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 17, 2021 18:37:36 GMT -6
Regarding Mono itself, for some material I would prefer it. Early Rock and Roll/(dance) Old Skool Soul/Rockabilly/Punk with a small Combo.
More Punch. Not for Pink Floyd's DSOTM!
Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jan 17, 2021 18:40:25 GMT -6
dan just turned me onto the mono mixes of Disraeli Gears (not phil spector related) and they are so much better than the stereo mixes, if you like Cream. More bass and drums, mainly. More rhythm.
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Post by wiz on Jan 17, 2021 19:33:29 GMT -6
I have never gotten into mono.....
My life changed at 9/10 years old when I heard DSOTM in my brothers car on 8 Track in Quadrophonic...
Mono couldn't compete after that.
I listen to the WOS stuff... and go ...meh....sacralidge I know, but being honest
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by chessparov on Jan 17, 2021 20:08:21 GMT -6
Mono Beatles and Beach Boys!  BTW I love Cream too... Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2021 22:46:48 GMT -6
I subscribe to a certain extent to “the death of the author” concept of critique (that is, considering an artist’s oeuvre separately from their lived life), so speaking solely in regards to his production work the man was undeniably somewhat of a genius, and that work is a big influence on my own. The Ronettes stuff in particular still informs my own use (overuse?) of reverb and ambience when producing and mixing pop music. That overtly artificial and yet somehow paradoxically natural sense of space that he helped pioneer (sort of... I guess in reality the arguably similar work of producers like Joe Meek prefigured Spector’s) is one of those things that, for me, clearly separates what is possible in recorded music from what is possible with live music. It’s inimitable studio magic in the truest sense, and I find it exciting and evocative when used properly. Having said that, his decisions occasionally went beyond what I would consider good taste (again, only speaking about his work...that goes without saying for his deeds), and that excess in and of itself helped me to realize that there can be too much of a good thing in a mix, and that some things are best when some degree of moderation is exercised. I remember when I was a kid reading an interview with George Harrison (in some music mag in the ‘90s) where he, like 25 years later, still regretted the overuse of reverb and echo on All Things Must Pass. That concept, a truly great artist lamenting the producer’s arguably unnecessary contributions to an otherwise nearly-flawless work, is something that really affected me, and is something I actively work to avoid in my own career. I consider it a cardinal studio sin to allow domineering production preferences to spoil the intentions of the artist. I always have to contrast the Phil Spector with the Steve Albini one. That the band, the performance, and the music has to be preserved but it also must be presented more real than real. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jan 17, 2021 22:50:01 GMT -6
I subscribe to a certain extent to “the death of the author” concept of critique (that is, considering an artist’s oeuvre separately from their lived life), so speaking solely in regards to his production work the man was undeniably somewhat of a genius, and that work is a big influence on my own. The Ronettes stuff in particular still informs my own use (overuse?) of reverb and ambience when producing and mixing pop music. That overtly artificial and yet somehow paradoxically natural sense of space that he helped pioneer (sort of... I guess in reality the arguably similar work of producers like Joe Meek prefigured Spector’s) is one of those things that, for me, clearly separates what is possible in recorded music from what is possible with live music. It’s inimitable studio magic in the truest sense, and I find it exciting and evocative when used properly. Having said that, his decisions occasionally went beyond what I would consider good taste (again, only speaking about his work...that goes without saying for his deeds), and that excess in and of itself helped me to realize that there can be too much of a good thing in a mix, and that some things are best when some degree of moderation is exercised. I remember when I was a kid reading an interview with George Harrison (in some music mag in the ‘90s) where he, like 25 years later, still regretted the overuse of reverb and echo on All Things Must Pass. That concept, a truly great artist lamenting the producer’s arguably unnecessary contributions to an otherwise nearly-flawless work, is something that really affected me, and is something I actively work to avoid in my own career. I consider it a cardinal studio sin to allow domineering production preferences to spoil the intentions of the artist. I always have to contrast the Phil Spector with the Steve Albini one. That the band, the performance, and the music has to be preserved but it also must be presented more real than real. Dan, sincerely waiting for your input on the low end theory thread. |
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Post by donr on Jan 17, 2021 23:33:23 GMT -6
I knew briefly the woman Phil Spector shot, she was the sister of one of our crew guys. Uncommonly good looking and nice. We had one post-gig hang when we played SoCal in the '90's and I would wish for more. Imagining the shooting most charitably, it was reckless play with a loaded gun coupled with insobriety and or/insanity. I guess Spector had a reputation for brandishing handguns. Awful. He deserved to spend his last years in jail for that.
For Phil Spector's music, he was an original. "To Know Him Is To Love Him" was a hit about the time I discovered pop music as a kid and the power thereof. I liked the Ronettes of course, Darlene Love, and "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" was awesome. No denying his talent and taste as writer and producer.
From a recordist point of view, it's impressive that you can use that much reverb in mono and have it sound functional, never mind good. The lead vocals are still up front in those recordings. Is there pre-delay on the vocal or not much verb? The backing tracks are swimming in reverb and function as one sound.
As a style, it was ground breaking. It gave the recordings a huge presentation which worked better for some songs than others. Spector's wiki page is fascinating. He did a lot more stuff after the "wall of sound" than I was really conscious of. Hit and miss with the Beatles. I was a consumer for all of Spector's recordings. You youngsters might want to listen to the early stuff if you have any curiosity about the late '50's - '60's evolution of popular music, and the way it was recorded.
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Post by donr on Jan 17, 2021 23:39:27 GMT -6
dan just turned me onto the mono mixes of Disraeli Gears (not phil spector related) and they are so much better than the stereo mixes, if you like Cream. More bass and drums, mainly. More rhythm. At the time, the mono mixes were the critical ones. For radio, and most playback systems at the time. Often, the stereo mixes were relegated to the recording engineer or staff after the producer and talent had left with the mono master. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 17, 2021 23:48:11 GMT -6
. . . For Phil Spector's music, he was an original. "To Know Him Is To Love Him" was a hit about the time I discovered pop music as a kid and the power thereof. . . . ======================== Thank you, donr for your post which should be read in its entirety. That song "To Know Him is to Love Him" was based upon a line on his father's tombstone - his father who committed suicide when Phil was 9 years old. Then I understand later he had a near fatal car accident that may have really affected his mind. But I would like to believe that at one stage in his life, he was a worthwhile person. Why would someone honor his father with such a song? What happened after that, I do not know. But I suspect right now he is facing the ultimate judgment. |
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Post by donr on Jan 18, 2021 0:16:03 GMT -6
>That song "To Know Him is to Love Him" was based upon a line on his father's tombstone - his father who committed suicide when Phil was 9 years old. Then I understand later he had a near fatal car accident that may have really affected his mind.
But I would like to believe that at one stage in his life, he was a worthwhile person. Why would someone honor his father with such a song? What happened after that, I do not know. But I suspect right now he is facing the ultimate judgment.<
ab101, what you say resonates. I don't know how common that tombstone quote is, but I know so many people in my life that it would apply to. I resolve to tell them all before I go and can't. : )
I can't read minds, so I don't know about Phil. I'd like to think he was just careless/nuts/intoxicated, instead of evil. But I do believe evil exists.
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Post by theshea on Jan 18, 2021 5:47:52 GMT -6
Mono Beatles and Beach Boys! BTW I love Cream too... Chris i just recorded a „pub rock“ band“ and would love to mix it all in mono, but the drummer won‘t let me ... aaargh! i find the idea cool, but he says it will sound old ... hard to argue with that. |
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Post by levon on Jan 18, 2021 7:58:44 GMT -6
I knew briefly the woman Phil Spector shot, she was the sister of one of our crew guys. Uncommonly good looking and nice. We had one post-gig hang when we played SoCal in the '90's and I would wish for more. Imagining the shooting most charitably, it was reckless play with a loaded gun coupled with insobriety and or/insanity. I guess Spector had a reputation for brandishing handguns. Awful. He deserved to spend his last years in jail for that. For Phil Spector's music, he was an original. "To Know Him Is To Love Him" was a hit about the time I discovered pop music as a kid and the power thereof. I liked the Ronettes of course, Darlene Love, and "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" was awesome. No denying his talent and taste as writer and producer. From a recordist point of view, it's impressive that you can use that much reverb in mono and have it sound functional, never mind good. The lead vocals are still up front in those recordings. Is there pre-delay on the vocal or not much verb? The backing tracks are swimming in reverb and function as one sound. As a style, it was ground breaking. It gave the recordings a huge presentation which worked better for some songs than others. Spector's wiki page is fascinating. He did a lot more stuff after the "wall of sound" than I was really conscious of. Hit and miss with the Beatles. I was a consumer for all of Spector's recordings. You youngsters might want to listen to the early stuff if you have any curiosity about the late '50's - '60's evolution of popular music, and the way it was recorded.
Agreed. The early stuff was sort of trail-blazing. Even though it was always a bit over the top. But perfect for songs like 'You've Lost That Loving Feeling'. I remember I was awed by that back then. However, the mess he made of Let It Be sort of negated all he did before, at least for me. That was utter crap. Also, his work with John Lennon later on was total crap to me.
And then he blew it (literally) and screwed up his life completely. What a pity.
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 18, 2021 8:59:46 GMT -6
Mono Beatles and Beach Boys! BTW I love Cream too... Chris i just recorded a „pub rock“ band“ and would love to mix it all in mono, but the drummer won‘t let me ... aaargh! i find the idea cool, but he says it will sound old ... hard to argue with that. And here I am hoping that the stuff I am doing now WILL sound old. |
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 18, 2021 9:20:24 GMT -6
Big fan of his work like most, but sometimes wonder if I’m hearing more of the top notch echo chambers/songwriting/recording....moreso than the WOS technique. I guess he wanted to double track everything before that was a thing, and needed to do it live to tape out of necessity.
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 18, 2021 9:29:16 GMT -6
I hear how we would be really tough on the musicians to get them tired and only play simple straightforward parts to support the arrangement, but not like others out there weren’t also doing this, without going that route (Motown and others). Ie Musicians playing parts/arrangements much simpler than they were capable of.
A friend posted an interview with David Axelrod back in 2005; (no idea if this is taking away from his contributions as a producer, but an interesting perspective). Phil certainly had a personality to him that’s for sure, just not sure how much of a genius or not he was in the studio.
Excerpt from interview:
“
So, your production and arranging style wasn't a response to that of, say, Phil Spector?
I nevr paid a lot of attention to him anyway. I wasn't aware of him. What did I care what Phil spector was doing? I didn't listen to his records. And I never went for that "Wall of Sound" thing. Spector just booked the studio. It was Jack Nitzsche who did the arrangements. He was a weird dude, but I liked him a lot.
So you're saying that the arranger should have gotten credit for developing the Wall of Sound?
I always thought the engineer at Gold Star [Studios] should have gotten about half the credit for that. He had a studio that would hold fourteen people, and in walks Spector with twenty people. You have to give credit to the engineer to make it possible to hear anything. And still have room to record the singers. He probably called Spector a f**king idiot.
We can't print that, can we?
Why not? Is he paying your salary? F**k him...
“
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Post by ericn on Jan 18, 2021 13:50:41 GMT -6
I love the quote from Ronnie “great producer, lousy husband “. I think we all need to view Phil in some variation of this.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 19, 2021 18:07:31 GMT -6
Sylvia Massy has copped to being his prison pen pal....expect to hear more.....maybe.....
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 19:29:40 GMT -6
Reminds me of that girl I almost dated years ago. I thought she said... She just came out, from going to Penn State.
But it was the State Pen.
Chris
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