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Post by reddirt on Dec 18, 2020 15:53:55 GMT -6
Nobody talks much about Metric Halo. It seems the time it took them to get the 3D option up and running cruelled the vibe towards them. A pity because they are top shelf items which in my experience go and go and go....
Cheers, Ross
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2020 16:00:20 GMT -6
Worked with a producer a couple weeks ago who's a die hard apollo user but the studio he was working at closed for the holidays and the band suggested my place. He was hesitant but used my motu converters. He was very pleased at how good they sounded.
Seems motu still has the prosumer stigma for many.
I think he's going to get some motu converters soon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 16:05:38 GMT -6
Worked with a producer a couple weeks ago who's a die hard apollo user but the studio he was working at closed for the holidays and the band suggested my place. He was hesitant but used my motu converters. He was very pleased at how good they sounded. Seems motu still has the prosumer stigma for many. I think he's going to get some motu converters soon. It’s from their earlier stuff, which I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole. It was nasty. All they need to do now is make the drivers less convoluted and make the ad as good as the da
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 18, 2020 16:42:47 GMT -6
Nobody talks much about Metric Halo. It seems the time it took them to get the 3D option up and running cruelled the vibe towards them. A pity because they are top shelf items which in my experience go and go and go.... Cheers, Ross I agree re: the quality, and I do think the 3D debacle (I think it's fair to call it a debacle) cost them a lot of the goodwill they'd built up over the years. Also, best customer support I've received in any industry.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 18, 2020 18:14:35 GMT -6
Any possibility of hearing that comparison? I’ve always been interested in Aurora but never heard one. I can't share, but I did find one on youtube of the older Aurora vs an older Motu on drums. At least to my ears I can hear the Aurora as much more clear and present, while the Motu sounds kinda veiled and muddy. I'm sure Motu has improved but so has Lynx!
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Post by Omicron9 on Dec 18, 2020 18:25:20 GMT -6
Another one not on your list, but I keep going back to RME interfaces. The drivers and stability are second to none — you’re pretty much guaranteed an interface that will be supported for 15 years or more. I’ve had a multiface, Madi pcie, ufx+, and now have added a babyface pro fs — nothing but praise for all of these. The Babyface is a sonic improvement over my Apollo twin mkii (preamps, headphone amps, conversion) and Totalmix is much more versatile and stable.... not to mention, there’s already working M1 drivers for the Mac Mini I just ordered. ^ This.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 19, 2020 5:31:50 GMT -6
ChaseUTB those specs aren't indicative at all of real world performance. They mostly are because the UAD Apollo is using newer chips than the Lynx and wasn't a total race to the bottom. The Lynx is noticeable cleaner and uses better analog parts and probably has cleaner DSP. The quality difference becomes obvious with treble, orchestral music, and instruments that are pretty much just shaped noise like synths and distorted guitars. Conversion is something where you largely get what you pay for. Lynx and Prism are well above MOTU, UAD, and RME and those guys are better than the likes of Focusrite and Presonus despite RME using some truly bottom basement parts and having a truncated mixer. UAD and RME are pretty much "Made with Chabuduo in the People's Republic of China" Have you used an Apollo X in your room? What interface do you use? I voted for Lynx btw. Like anything else that has a measurement shows you what to expect. I never said specs were everything. They are one piece to the info puzzle. For ex: A food label tells u how much sugar, fat, etc based on an a measured amount. That’s a controlled test value. Same as an interface w/ test tones/ pink noise / white noise & measuring w/ Audio Precision analyzers which is lab grade test equipment. The sine waves, pink noise etc is the control value for alternating current voltage. Audio is ac voltage which is not constant so you need a constant to measure w/ ( Just like calibrating monitors w/ pink noise ) These tests measures the sum of all parts including the analog stages. These interfaces vary less than a half dB throughout the human ears bandwidth. If these interfaces had such dramatic differences it would be tested & measured. Klaus measures a capsule after he hears it is off to confirm what he hears. If the interface can produce X dB w/ a 24 bit 0db this is even better for music which is dynamic Apollo ( tested the same ways as Lynx ) will have more DR & output for the monitoring chain. If tests show a noise level -118db vs -80db we can deduce which is noiser. Now 24 dBu vs 20dBu may not make a huge difference coming off or to tape / analog chain etc. I also believe that UAD does 3-4X the production Lynx does so they can offer more potential per dollar to the customer ( not saying they do ) I have heard ppl rag on SF apolls for years but that doesn’t stop me from recording/ producing/ mixing & mastering great sounding music. If I couldn’t it wouldn’t be the Apollo’s to blame
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 19, 2020 5:37:01 GMT -6
@chase the gs post is such a joke:), the X is a very good sounding interface. been said before, but all these interfaces will get the job done, I have read criticisms of each And yet they all sell many many units: whose right ? Sonics, features, price, workflow, sweeteners, they all factor in, but you can do very good work with anyone of them: pick your poison! Yeah that thread was funny lol GS can give u a good laugh. I just wrote a long response but yes I agree I mentioned UA doing 4x the volume Lynx does so they have the potential to give more to the customer for the $. & yeah workflow is everything. I mentioned upgrading can sometimes be a whole new revamp of workflow which some don’t factor in. Ppl have ragged on SF Apollo’s for years but it never seems to get in my way of producing, recording, mixing, mastering, music & A/V
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 19, 2020 5:39:56 GMT -6
I had someone send me some files last night of a new x series Apollo vs a modded x series, vs a 2192. Gotta say I was not impressed. It still sounds like an Apollo. If anything, it made me want a 2192. That thing bested both x’s easily. I also listened to a few lynx vs Motu files I was able to get my hands on. No contest to my ears. Lynx was so much clearer and more dynamic. I know internet files are not real world personal use, but if you listen to enough, it starts to paint a picture. I know it’s a budget stretch, but I’ve pretty much settled on the Lynx. I’m in no rush though. But when the time comes, that’s what I’m grabbing. Not talking down Apollo’s at all here. I’ve made some really great recordings with mine, I’m just ocd, and I know what my ears like. Where you ABX or blind tested? How many times out of 10 did you pick the 2192 & Lynx. What are these files of? In the GS thread I mentioned the dude posted files but clipped the Apollo outputs, then clipped the audio converting to MP3 but claimed the 10yr old RME sounded perfect but the RME files weren’t clipped lol
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 19, 2020 6:39:35 GMT -6
I had someone send me some files last night of a new x series Apollo vs a modded x series, vs a 2192. Gotta say I was not impressed. It still sounds like an Apollo. If anything, it made me want a 2192. That thing bested both x’s easily. I also listened to a few lynx vs Motu files I was able to get my hands on. No contest to my ears. Lynx was so much clearer and more dynamic. I know internet files are not real world personal use, but if you listen to enough, it starts to paint a picture. I know it’s a budget stretch, but I’ve pretty much settled on the Lynx. I’m in no rush though. But when the time comes, that’s what I’m grabbing. Not talking down Apollo’s at all here. I’ve made some really great recordings with mine, I’m just ocd, and I know what my ears like. Where you ABX or blind tested? How many times out of 10 did you pick the 2192 & Lynx. What are these files of? In the GS thread I mentioned the dude posted files but clipped the Apollo outputs, then clipped the audio converting to MP3 but claimed the 10yr old RME sounded perfect but the RME files weren’t clipped lol I wasn’t, but I’ll try it with the files later. The guy is trying to sell the modded x6 so I doubt he would purposely make it sound bad. It wasn’t bad FYI, just not as exciting as the 2192.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2020 14:22:25 GMT -6
ChaseUTB those specs aren't indicative at all of real world performance. They mostly are because the UAD Apollo is using newer chips than the Lynx and wasn't a total race to the bottom. The Lynx is noticeable cleaner and uses better analog parts and probably has cleaner DSP. The quality difference becomes obvious with treble, orchestral music, and instruments that are pretty much just shaped noise like synths and distorted guitars. Conversion is something where you largely get what you pay for. Lynx and Prism are well above MOTU, UAD, and RME and those guys are better than the likes of Focusrite and Presonus despite RME using some truly bottom basement parts and having a truncated mixer. UAD and RME are pretty much "Made with Chabuduo in the People's Republic of China" Have you used an Apollo X in your room? What interface do you use? I voted for Lynx btw. Like anything else that has a measurement shows you what to expect. I never said specs were everything. They are one piece to the info puzzle. For ex: A food label tells u how much sugar, fat, etc based on an a measured amount. That’s a controlled test value. Same as an interface w/ test tones/ pink noise / white noise & measuring w/ Audio Precision analyzers which is lab grade test equipment. The sine waves, pink noise etc is the control value for alternating current voltage. Audio is ac voltage which is not constant so you need a constant to measure w/ ( Just like calibrating monitors w/ pink noise ) These tests measures the sum of all parts including the analog stages. These interfaces vary less than a half dB throughout the human ears bandwidth. If these interfaces had such dramatic differences it would be tested & measured. Klaus measures a capsule after he hears it is off to confirm what he hears. If the interface can produce X dB w/ a 24 bit 0db this is even better for music which is dynamic Apollo ( tested the same ways as Lynx ) will have more DR & output for the monitoring chain. If tests show a noise level -118db vs -80db we can deduce which is noiser. Now 24 dBu vs 20dBu may not make a huge difference coming off or to tape / analog chain etc. I also believe that UAD does 3-4X the production Lynx does so they can offer more potential per dollar to the customer ( not saying they do ) I have heard ppl rag on SF apolls for years but that doesn’t stop me from recording/ producing/ mixing & mastering great sounding music. If I couldn’t it wouldn’t be the Apollo’s to blame If I went with Apollo, I’d need another DA for monitoring and a good volume control thing for that. And not like a drawmer, Grace, or dangerous. Those kill detail. It’s that simple. I have insane DA gas and ocd. With Apogee, MOTU, Lynx, Prism, etc? No need because they’re very good DA already. Now with the MOTU, I want a separate AD! I use MOTU AVB units now because they have very good multichannel DA and cheap. I’m going to upgrade, prob to Lynx or maybe the Symphony Desktop (symphony quality with no fan) for better ad after I get a new computer and new monitors. Motu da is cheaped out in a much more pleasant way than the Apollo to me, the AD is hella cheaped out but at least warm, and board houses owned by Virtex in the USA. Chabuduo part substitutions are impossible. UAD AD has a less pleasant color to me but isn’t as cheaped out for sure. Lynx? Nothing is cheaped out and its made in the USA. No fans. No bullshit. No upselling of outdated ten year old DSP and plugins. Prism is weird because they use bog standard parts and it’s all About the special filters and noise shaping. They bypass most of the functions on the cs4398 da. The treble clarity is to die for but the onboard volume control audibly degrades the sound and kills detail. I’ve never tested an Apollo full scale or at -1 dbfs, wherever it Measures best, with god tier preamp (Think mil spec passive pot short cable run or tvc/avc which are $$$ but don’t kill detail like Drawmer, dangerous, and Grace monitor controllers do) vs the onboard volume control. Depends if the mixer is floating point well-dithered to the chip or not or if it uses the on chip floating point volume control like MOTU does. Either way the Prism volume control kills detail so you have to open up your wallet some more but if you have the money, MOTU and UAD and RME treble are pretty trashy or veiled compared to it. Lynx holds up and has cleaner bass than the Prism but Prism still has the edge in treble detail and clarity. Is it fake? Who knows but it sounds good and sounds like you get your money’s worth
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 19, 2020 16:32:10 GMT -6
I got the topping rx7 for da with my x6, so it’s running full out and I use the topping as my controller, the little remote works perfectly.
The rx7 is more detailed and linear but not clinical and not crazy money.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 19, 2020 19:13:53 GMT -6
Topping DX7s here also. Drawmer MC2.1 monitor controller. Currently testing the SSL2+ DAC, and I'll see how the preamps sound tomorrow. Headphone amps are weak on the SSL, with HD650, easily trounced by the Drawmer. Maybe not surprising on USB bus power, for the SSL.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 19, 2020 19:39:54 GMT -6
I have a Topping pa3 I bought to power my ns10’s after my Samson started getting noisy. I like the sound. Tons of power (at the expense of a little hiss), but I dig the small form factor. I keep hearing good things about the DA.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 19, 2020 20:00:31 GMT -6
I think we need to address the fact that the music you work on will also dictate how you perceive converters.
There is a difference between a drummer beating the shit out of a china cymbal during a chorus of a metal tune, and a jazz drummer using brushes on a dark cymbal. Those two approaches will come across quite differently and will have us form different opinions on converters.
Just some food for thought. Either way, it comes down to how we hear things as individuals, and how we use the tools we have at our disposal to fit them into a production.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 19, 2020 20:36:15 GMT -6
I think we need to address the fact that the music you work on will also dictate how you perceive converters. There is a difference between a drummer beating the shit out of a china cymbal during a chorus of a metal tune, and a jazz drummer using brushes on a dark cymbal. Those two approaches will come across quite differently and will have us form different opinions on converters. Just some food for thought. Either way, it comes down to how we hear things as individuals, and how we use the tools we have at our disposal to fit them into a production. Great point. If your making electronic music mostly in the box, you’re probably not too concerned with the ad of your converter. I think we can all agree that da is super important for mixing. I’ve spent a lot of time tuning my room, investing in instruments and mics, and I want some great ad as well. Most people agree that pretty much every ad is good enough to get the job done these days, but if you’re ocd like me, you’ll hear all the tiny changes in different converters. To be honest, I bought a cheap Focusrite Safire years ago as a mobile recording rig, and I was amazed how good the recordings sounded from those converters.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 19, 2020 20:56:58 GMT -6
Here’s the thing that gets my OCD raging over conversion. Outboard. Sending that signal out and back in through converters when mixing.
And let’s say I bought something like a Dangerous AD converter for tracking. I’d still be sending that signal out and back through my Motu’s converters, so what’s the point of tracking through the Dangerous in the first place?
And the again on the 2-buss? Makes my head spin.
And the same for DA. We talk about how great the Dangerous DA is (or whatever your preference) for monitoring, but wouldn’t I want that same great sonic signature on my 2-buss?
$$$$
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 19, 2020 22:34:45 GMT -6
I go in my Apollo from my Convert AD+ AES/EBU and it just destroys the analog input of the Apollo 16 mkII. I thought about getting another Apollo X16 so I could use the AES/EBU for my Convert2 DA. I haven't heard the Apollo X conversion yet, so not sure I need a Convert2 DA, but I imagine you will hear a difference between the Convert2 and the Apollo X. Something I'd like to compare on the DA's. I’ve used the Convert2DA and it is a stellar piece, however I’ve yet to hear the Apollo X converters.
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 20, 2020 10:46:38 GMT -6
To be honest, I bought a cheap Focusrite Safire years ago as a mobile recording rig, and I was amazed how good the recordings sounded from those converters. This is going to sound like heresy, but I think a lot of older, cheap interfaces/converters sounded WAY better than people gave them credit for. Back around 2007 - 2010, I had a super cheap M-Audio MobilePreUSB. I occasionally pull up recordings I made with that thing and I'm always shocked by how decent they sound. I think the big thing at the time was everyone thought cheap converters sounded "veiled," but in retrospect, I actually kind of like that.
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 20, 2020 10:51:43 GMT -6
I go in my Apollo from my Convert AD+ AES/EBU and it just destroys the analog input of the Apollo 16 mkII. I thought about getting another Apollo X16 so I could use the AES/EBU for my Convert2 DA. I haven't heard the Apollo X conversion yet, so not sure I need a Convert2 DA, but I imagine you will hear a difference between the Convert2 and the Apollo X. Something I'd like to compare on the DA's. I’ve used the Convert2DA and it is a stellar piece, however I’ve yet to hear the Apollo X converters. My experience exactly, albeit with a MKI Apollo and an Aurora 8. After almost a year of tracking with the Aurora, I wouldn't want to go back. The Apollo's A/D is too pushed in the mids for my taste — I've seen people refer to it as a "midrange glare," which is exactly how I'd describe it. Some people like it, but it's just not my preference at all.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 20, 2020 11:21:39 GMT -6
To be honest, I bought a cheap Focusrite Safire years ago as a mobile recording rig, and I was amazed how good the recordings sounded from those converters. This is going to sound like heresy, but I think a lot of older, cheap interfaces/converters sounded WAY better than people gave them credit for. Back around 2007 - 2010, I had a super cheap M-Audio MobilePreUSB. I occasionally pull up recordings I made with that thing and I'm always shocked by how decent they sound. I think the big thing at the time was everyone thought cheap converters sounded "veiled," but in retrospect, I actually kind of like that. A friend of mine had an mbox into garage band, monitoring with old rokits. Always made really good recordings. I think his mic was the m audio Luna.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 20, 2020 18:30:46 GMT -6
Have you used an Apollo X in your room? What interface do you use? I voted for Lynx btw. Like anything else that has a measurement shows you what to expect. I never said specs were everything. They are one piece to the info puzzle. For ex: A food label tells u how much sugar, fat, etc based on an a measured amount. That’s a controlled test value. Same as an interface w/ test tones/ pink noise / white noise & measuring w/ Audio Precision analyzers which is lab grade test equipment. The sine waves, pink noise etc is the control value for alternating current voltage. Audio is ac voltage which is not constant so you need a constant to measure w/ ( Just like calibrating monitors w/ pink noise ) These tests measures the sum of all parts including the analog stages. These interfaces vary less than a half dB throughout the human ears bandwidth. If these interfaces had such dramatic differences it would be tested & measured. Klaus measures a capsule after he hears it is off to confirm what he hears. If the interface can produce X dB w/ a 24 bit 0db this is even better for music which is dynamic Apollo ( tested the same ways as Lynx ) will have more DR & output for the monitoring chain. If tests show a noise level -118db vs -80db we can deduce which is noiser. Now 24 dBu vs 20dBu may not make a huge difference coming off or to tape / analog chain etc. I also believe that UAD does 3-4X the production Lynx does so they can offer more potential per dollar to the customer ( not saying they do ) I have heard ppl rag on SF apolls for years but that doesn’t stop me from recording/ producing/ mixing & mastering great sounding music. If I couldn’t it wouldn’t be the Apollo’s to blame If I went with Apollo, I’d need another DA for monitoring and a good volume control thing for that. And not like a drawmer, Grace, or dangerous. Those kill detail. It’s that simple. I have insane DA gas and ocd. With Apogee, MOTU, Lynx, Prism, etc? No need because they’re very good DA already. Now with the MOTU, I want a separate AD! I use MOTU AVB units now because they have very good multichannel DA and cheap. I’m going to upgrade, prob to Lynx or maybe the Symphony Desktop (symphony quality with no fan) for better ad after I get a new computer and new monitors. Motu da is cheaped out in a much more pleasant way than the Apollo to me, the AD is hella cheaped out but at least warm, and board houses owned by Virtex in the USA. Chabuduo part substitutions are impossible. UAD AD has a less pleasant color to me but isn’t as cheaped out for sure. Lynx? Nothing is cheaped out and its made in the USA. No fans. No bullshit. No upselling of outdated ten year old DSP and plugins. Prism is weird because they use bog standard parts and it’s all About the special filters and noise shaping. They bypass most of the functions on the cs4398 da. The treble clarity is to die for but the onboard volume control audibly degrades the sound and kills detail. I’ve never tested an Apollo full scale or at -1 dbfs, wherever it Measures best, with god tier preamp (Think mil spec passive pot short cable run or tvc/avc which are $$$ but don’t kill detail like Drawmer, dangerous, and Grace monitor controllers do) vs the onboard volume control. Depends if the mixer is floating point well-dithered to the chip or not or if it uses the on chip floating point volume control like MOTU does. Either way the Prism volume control kills detail so you have to open up your wallet some more but if you have the money, MOTU and UAD and RME treble are pretty trashy or veiled compared to it. Lynx holds up and has cleaner bass than the Prism but Prism still has the edge in treble detail and clarity. Is it fake? Who knows but it sounds good and sounds like you get your money’s worth To clarify you have NOT heard/ used an Apollo X in your room? What version Apollo HAVE you used? What did you do w/ the Apollo SF, BF or X line to come to your conclusion? What do u do to compare/ test converters? Loop backs, A/B reference material, analog chain prints, tape captures? Have you used any of the Dangerous, Grace, Lynx, Prism, or RME converters in your room? Apollo is digitally controlled analog monitor outputs so no matter where you calibrate to on the monitor controller you get/ retain full 24 bit resolution feeding the D to A converter into your monitor chain whether at -0 or -40. Its cool to like what u like & have preferences. Imo they need to be stated as such Apollo is not the best interface but it’s good to dam good & has improved substantially each version.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 20, 2020 18:53:30 GMT -6
Now entry level bus powered & 10 year old cheap interfaces sound good 😩
I hope you guys are joking. No bus powered converter I have used sounds good. I ain’t running out to buy one. Whenever I have used them they are in the way of me making accurate decisions in the same room, same monitors as better converters.
Imo There is no need to purchase a separate DA for your Apollo X when your room affects the sound more than changing multi thousand multi channel converters. Use that $$$ on your room treatment, analog HW, mics, or instruments those truly affect tone & sound.
The monitoring also colors everything you hear along w the room response.
Midrange glare on the Apollo A to D but measures within a half of dB from 20-20,000 Hz. I have used Apogee ( Quartet, Ensemble, Symph mk1) , Avid ( 96,192,Hd, Omni, mbox pro & mini) , Black Lion Mod AVID 192 I/O, SF Apollo, Cheap focusrite & personus 2 in X 4 outs & Recorded to tape at Tree Sound Studios. Also have heard mix file prints thru of Lavry Gold vs HD I/o vs Cranesong.
I don’t claim to have the best ears, monitoring chain, or acoustically flat room but I am fully confident I can hear “ mid range glare “ or these other quite dramatic sound most you guys attribute to the Apollo interfaces.
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 20, 2020 19:35:37 GMT -6
I was listening to my Soundcraft Ghost Creation modified desk into my Jim Williams modded Alesis HD24’s recordings. Damn, I miss that sound. Better than any ITB recording to date! I was never sold on the new converters when we all went ITB...🙄
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 21, 2020 0:11:16 GMT -6
Now entry level bus powered & 10 year old cheap interfaces sound good 😩 I hope you guys are joking. No bus powered converter I have used sounds good. I ain’t running out to buy one. Whenever I have used them they are in the way of me making accurate decisions in the same room, same monitors as better converters. Imo There is no need to purchase a separate DA for your Apollo X when your room affects the sound more than changing multi thousand multi channel converters. Use that $$$ on your room treatment, analog HW, mics, or instruments those truly affect tone & sound. The monitoring also colors everything you hear along w the room response. Midrange glare on the Apollo A to D but measures within a half of dB from 20-20,000 Hz. I have used Apogee ( Quartet, Ensemble, Symph mk1) , Avid ( 96,192,Hd, Omni, mbox pro & mini) , Black Lion Mod AVID 192 I/O, SF Apollo, Cheap focusrite & personus 2 in X 4 outs & Recorded to tape at Tree Sound Studios. Also have heard mix file prints thru of Lavry Gold vs HD I/o vs Cranesong. I don’t claim to have the best ears, monitoring chain, or acoustically flat room but I am fully confident I can hear “ mid range glare “ or these other quite dramatic sound most you guys attribute to the Apollo interfaces. Just sharing my experience. To clarify, I didn’t say there was a dramatic difference between the Apollo and other converters. The differences are indeed very subtle. Converters are almost never going to be the thing that makes or breaks your recordings. The Apollo is certainly capable of producing awesome results. But still, it has a sound. As I stated above, many people like it and do great work with it. Totally cool. It’s just not my personal preference. I also didn’t say that older budget interfaces sound good — I said that cheap interfaces were better than people gave them credit for, that my old recordings sounded surprisingly decent, and that I kind of liked the “veiled” sound many of them have. This doesn’t mean I want to use one any time soon. And to be fair, I did say it was going to sound like heresy.
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