|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 15, 2020 4:53:44 GMT -6
One of my guitar students is a HIFI Freak.
Investing thousands and thousands in esoteric "Gear". So he did with an AD converter by Cyrus, a British brand.
I knew by my old Lavry DA 10 how good the technology was years ago. I told him the story that I sold the Lavry because tc-electronic made for a short time the BMC2 with the old DAC of the system 6000 and that this DAC was close to the Lavry.
Sure ... he told me impossible bla bla bla...
I advised to get a used BMC-2 on e bay and to compare the 4kish converter versus the BMC-2. He did and called me .... no race and bla bla bla...
I advised him on the phone to burn a CD with pink noise and to level match both DACs with an SPL-C Meter before he plays back music again. He said "it's not level, it sounds like night and day, like one converter is just the holy grail, and the TC is old shit" I told him to do it anyway and to call me again.
At least he had the balls to tell me that the TC-BMC2 is great sounding old technology.
How old was the TC6000 system 25 years?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 12:45:53 GMT -6
Most of the improvements in converter tech are just chips and the chips have been good for a long time. A lot of the other tech advances are just about being able to make mediocre gear cheaper. The difference in monitoring between a -95 db snr and a -110 db snr is basically irrelevant. The distortion at individual frequencies matters more and this is more a function of the power supply, analog design, and of course the clocking. The analog parts of many converters are totally gimped but the 1khz measurements largely correlate to chips. It’s why SSL and SPL can use codec chips, don’t get great snr, yet subjectively outperform stuff with better chips.
The internet hype train guys do not like to point this out. So people will compare the 1khz specs of the UAD Apollos to Lavry Blacks and the Apollos measure better but sound more incohesive despite the insane Lavry warmth. The Lavry Blacks still kick ass. They have more treble detail than the Dangerous Convert 2 but much much worse low end. The old Bricasti m1 kicks both their asses in almost every way and uses much more expensive parts and better analog but is more $$$$. There hasn’t really been anything as overbuilt as the Bricasti. It’s just a decade old, insanely priced, and not hype anymore. These all use the same ad1955 chip. This is why the UAD Apollos and RMEs can sound quite good but can’t really hang with the best stereo converters and the Lynx stuff. The newer TI and AD opamps along with the (maybe disappearing???) LMEs are so good.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 15, 2020 15:33:53 GMT -6
Most of the improvements in converter tech are just chips and the chips have been good for a long time. A lot of the other tech advances are just about being able to make mediocre gear cheaper. The difference in monitoring between a -95 db snr and a -110 db snr is basically irrelevant. The distortion at individual frequencies matters more and this is more a function of the power supply, analog design, and of course the clocking. The analog parts of many converters are totally gimped but the 1khz measurements largely correlate to chips. It’s why SSL and SPL can use codec chips, don’t get great snr, yet subjectively outperform stuff with better chips. The internet hype train guys do not like to point this out. So people will compare the 1khz specs of the UAD Apollos to Lavry Blacks and the Apollos measure better but sound more incohesive despite the insane Lavry warmth. The Lavry Blacks still kick ass. They have more treble detail than the Dangerous Convert 2 but much much worse low end. The old Bricasti m1 kicks both their asses in almost every way and uses much more expensive parts and better analog but is more $$$$. There hasn’t really been anything as overbuilt as the Bricasti. It’s just a decade old, insanely priced, and not hype anymore. These all use the same ad1955 chip. This is why the UAD Apollos and RMEs can sound quite good but can’t really hang with the best stereo converters and the Lynx stuff. The newer TI and AD opamps along with the (maybe disappearing???) LMEs are so good.
That's why I ask myself what they may have done right in the fairly cheap tc-bmc 2 unit. It hit the market ø 700 bucks when the hype was over they sold the rest off ø 250 bucks. It's a shame that they stopped building the unit.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Nov 16, 2020 12:16:11 GMT -6
Most of the improvements in converter tech are just chips and the chips have been good for a long time. A lot of the other tech advances are just about being able to make mediocre gear cheaper. The difference in monitoring between a -95 db snr and a -110 db snr is basically irrelevant. The distortion at individual frequencies matters more and this is more a function of the power supply, analog design, and of course the clocking. The analog parts of many converters are totally gimped but the 1khz measurements largely correlate to chips. It’s why SSL and SPL can use codec chips, don’t get great snr, yet subjectively outperform stuff with better chips. The internet hype train guys do not like to point this out. So people will compare the 1khz specs of the UAD Apollos to Lavry Blacks and the Apollos measure better but sound more incohesive despite the insane Lavry warmth. The Lavry Blacks still kick ass. They have more treble detail than the Dangerous Convert 2 but much much worse low end. The old Bricasti m1 kicks both their asses in almost every way and uses much more expensive parts and better analog but is more $$$$. There hasn’t really been anything as overbuilt as the Bricasti. It’s just a decade old, insanely priced, and not hype anymore. These all use the same ad1955 chip. This is why the UAD Apollos and RMEs can sound quite good but can’t really hang with the best stereo converters and the Lynx stuff. The newer TI and AD opamps along with the (maybe disappearing???) LMEs are so good. I've always found that if you discuss actual measurements then they will argue about "the sound" and objective interpretation of what they're hearing and claim that "measurements can't tell you everything". However, if you try to discuss interpretation/opinion of the sound, they'll argue about needing measurements to back up your claims or that your ears aren't good enough to tell the difference..
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 16, 2020 12:40:48 GMT -6
It's really all about the power supplies, analog stages and keeping them clean. You can't buy that on a chip.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 16, 2020 13:32:26 GMT -6
It's really all about the power supplies, analog stages and keeping them clean. You can't buy that on a chip.
I don't doubt this. But the TC uses something Chinese PSU does not look like it's expensive, or anything they paid a lot for. Looks like an OEM PLUG IN PSU..... I am not a tech, maybe there are also good and bad solutions as plug in PSU? svart?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 15:05:34 GMT -6
Most of the improvements in converter tech are just chips and the chips have been good for a long time. A lot of the other tech advances are just about being able to make mediocre gear cheaper. The difference in monitoring between a -95 db snr and a -110 db snr is basically irrelevant. The distortion at individual frequencies matters more and this is more a function of the power supply, analog design, and of course the clocking. The analog parts of many converters are totally gimped but the 1khz measurements largely correlate to chips. It’s why SSL and SPL can use codec chips, don’t get great snr, yet subjectively outperform stuff with better chips. The internet hype train guys do not like to point this out. So people will compare the 1khz specs of the UAD Apollos to Lavry Blacks and the Apollos measure better but sound more incohesive despite the insane Lavry warmth. The Lavry Blacks still kick ass. They have more treble detail than the Dangerous Convert 2 but much much worse low end. The old Bricasti m1 kicks both their asses in almost every way and uses much more expensive parts and better analog but is more $$$$. There hasn’t really been anything as overbuilt as the Bricasti. It’s just a decade old, insanely priced, and not hype anymore. These all use the same ad1955 chip. This is why the UAD Apollos and RMEs can sound quite good but can’t really hang with the best stereo converters and the Lynx stuff. The newer TI and AD opamps along with the (maybe disappearing???) LMEs are so good. I've always found that if you discuss actual measurements then they will argue about "the sound" and objective interpretation of what they're hearing and claim that "measurements can't tell you everything". However, if you try to discuss interpretation/opinion of the sound, they'll argue about needing measurements to back up your claims or that your ears aren't good enough to tell the difference.. They also blatantly ignore heavy distortions and pretend they can’t affect the sound. I see this with poorly regulated switchers, butthole caps in the signal path, opamps worse than 1980s TL071 and NE5532, cheap unmatched tubes, awful dirt box transformers, bad speaker drivers, bad crossovers etc. The apologists like to pretend that it doesn’t matter and what they have is just as good. On the gear internet, they pollute high end threads apologizing for what they own or wanting purchase validation. People on gearslutz called BS on me the other day for saying that 1” aluminum dome tweeters have much higher IMD than soft domes. Like that’s a fact visible in their own spec sheets and any driver measurements. If they wanted to shift the IMD from the breakup up from the midrange, they would go with 3/4” dome, beryllium, or diamond. Or a soft dome to ditch it altogether. Yet they defend not great tweeters being driven by always distorted class d plate amp that are underspecced being pushed into heavy distortion in normal studio use. They’re just not hearing it. The same is true with bad converters. They don’t have anything on hand that would make it sound horrible in comparison in their home or project studio so they pretend what they have is just as good or they prefer the distortion.
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 16, 2020 15:13:25 GMT -6
My Grace M905 is incredible. I have a complete lack of interest in DA conversion after buying this. Don't know what they did but they did something.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 15:16:53 GMT -6
It's really all about the power supplies, analog stages and keeping them clean. You can't buy that on a chip.
I don't doubt this. But the TC uses something Chinese PSU does not look like it's expensive, or anything they paid a lot for. Looks like an OEM PLUG IN PSU..... I am not a tech, maybe there are also good and bad solutions as plug in PSU? svart ? Some of those Chinese PSUs are quite okay but not cheap. Others are awful, will break in two years of constant use, and fry your equipment so a drop in replacement will not save it. Apogee and RME have used some bad stuff but what’s in most Focusrite products, including some of the Rednets, is godfuckingawful. The same bs used in offbrand lcd TVs that break in a year yet Focusrite wants thousands of dollars. The cheaped ones used to be better prior to Chinese industrial espionage. They tried to steal Japanese capacitor designs and fucked it up horribly just like the bootleg opamps And bootleg caps. Many of those caps are made in China now yet the random oems “on” makers can’t copy em and worse than Jamicons. The “ons” are often not to a consistent spec at all.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Nov 16, 2020 15:17:47 GMT -6
I've always found that if you discuss actual measurements then they will argue about "the sound" and objective interpretation of what they're hearing and claim that "measurements can't tell you everything". However, if you try to discuss interpretation/opinion of the sound, they'll argue about needing measurements to back up your claims or that your ears aren't good enough to tell the difference.. They also blatantly ignore heavy distortions and pretend they can’t affect the sound. I see this with poorly regulated switchers, butthole caps in the signal path, opamps worse than 1980s TL071 and NE5532, cheap unmatched tubes, awful dirt box transformers, bad speaker drivers, bad crossovers etc. The apologists like to pretend that it doesn’t matter and what they have is just as good. On the gear internet, they pollute high end threads apologizing for what they own or wanting purchase validation. People on gearslutz called BS on me the other day for saying that 1” aluminum dome tweeters have much higher IMD than soft domes. Like that’s a fact visible in their own spec sheets and any driver measurements. If they wanted to shift the IMD from the breakup up from the midrange, they would go with 3/4” dome, beryllium, or diamond. Or a soft dome to ditch it altogether. Yet they defend not great tweeters being driven by always distorted class d plate amp that are underspecced being pushed into heavy distortion in normal studio use. They’re just not hearing it. The same is true with bad converters. They don’t have anything on hand that would make it sound horrible in comparison in their home or project studio so they pretend what they have is just as good or they prefer the distortion. I like the sound of the NE5532. Very neutral and relaxed. It needs stiff power rails to sound best though, which is where most designs go wrong with it. TL07x parts don't like gain. They work and sound good if you keep them at G=2 or below with a higher impedance load. Being cheap, designers put them in medium/low impedance circuits and gain them up and it causes them to cry in pain. I can't stand metal tweeters. I tried. I really tried. Can't do it for the reasons you suggest. I think people like a good deal of distortion. I guess that's an understatement considering the amount of saturation people put on mixes not to mention distorted guitars.. But I think people like the harmonic fill in the upper treble region too. It makes things sound airy and detailed where there is none to be had.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 16, 2020 15:29:37 GMT -6
My Grace M905 is incredible. I have a complete lack of interest in DA conversion after buying this. Don't know what they did but they did something. Ditto. It was like the heavens opened up or something.....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 15:52:33 GMT -6
They also blatantly ignore heavy distortions and pretend they can’t affect the sound. I see this with poorly regulated switchers, butthole caps in the signal path, opamps worse than 1980s TL071 and NE5532, cheap unmatched tubes, awful dirt box transformers, bad speaker drivers, bad crossovers etc. The apologists like to pretend that it doesn’t matter and what they have is just as good. On the gear internet, they pollute high end threads apologizing for what they own or wanting purchase validation. People on gearslutz called BS on me the other day for saying that 1” aluminum dome tweeters have much higher IMD than soft domes. Like that’s a fact visible in their own spec sheets and any driver measurements. If they wanted to shift the IMD from the breakup up from the midrange, they would go with 3/4” dome, beryllium, or diamond. Or a soft dome to ditch it altogether. Yet they defend not great tweeters being driven by always distorted class d plate amp that are underspecced being pushed into heavy distortion in normal studio use. They’re just not hearing it. The same is true with bad converters. They don’t have anything on hand that would make it sound horrible in comparison in their home or project studio so they pretend what they have is just as good or they prefer the distortion. I like the sound of the NE5532. Very neutral and relaxed. It needs stiff power rails to sound best though, which is where most designs go wrong with it. TL07x parts don't like gain. They work and sound good if you keep them at G=2 or below with a higher impedance load. Being cheap, designers put them in medium/low impedance circuits and gain them up and it causes them to cry in pain. I can't stand metal tweeters. I tried. I really tried. Can't do it for the reasons you suggest. I think people like a good deal of distortion. I guess that's an understatement considering the amount of saturation people put on mixes not to mention distorted guitars.. But I think people like the harmonic fill in the upper treble region too. It makes things sound airy and detailed where there is none to be had. The NE5532 works. Prism has always it and has the cleanest treble around and their boxes have been the same since the Orpheus. Decapitator and vintage warmer on everything = clarity. Everything paralleled = clarity. Yeah I agree they like to hear more distortion than there is. It’s why some people claim that multiple rounds of back to back limiting is “cleaner” on the same peaks than one limiter doing the same thing to the peak. They just like the distortion. There are posters who claim rock is harsh music so it has to sound harsh yet most of the modern rock tones are just high gain, thin, and either midless or middy. The only thing harsh on many of these albums are hard clipped cymbals/snare and the limiter because the bands are tame and using boring guitar gear and they want to fix boring music and performances in the mix. They mistake the buildup of digital distortion (truncation, imd from limiters, clipping and aliasing from poor gainstaging) for clarity yet use the same mics and pres (often much worse pres) as the 60s and 70s. Half the posters on gearslutz would take Death Magnetic over Kill em All because Scheps did it. I love super subtle tape plugs on everything and tube plugs on wimpy guitars. If they obviously used interface or multiple types of pres, I’ll just trim massively and universalize the “base timbre“ of everything with Ray Dratwa’s plugs now without a second thought
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,952
|
Post by ericn on Nov 17, 2020 14:23:29 GMT -6
No one in hifi will ever admit this but they like distortion just as much as we do!
|
|
|
Post by levon on Nov 17, 2020 15:04:54 GMT -6
Funny when gear nerds, who invest thousands and thousands in esoteric gear called Pultecs, U47s, 1073s and such, and obsess over the advantages of one tiny component against another, make fun of hifi nerds investing thousands and thousands in esoteric gear. We're all guilty as charged.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Nov 17, 2020 15:35:22 GMT -6
My Grace M905 is incredible. I have a complete lack of interest in DA conversion after buying this. Don't know what they did but they did something. Ditto. It was like the heavens opened up or something..... Everything Michael Grace and company make is amazing.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 17, 2020 17:04:26 GMT -6
Funny when gear nerds, who invest thousands and thousands in esoteric gear called Pultecs, U47s, 1073s and such, and obsess over the advantages of one tiny component against another, make fun of hifi nerds investing thousands and thousands in esoteric gear. We're all guilty as charged.
My aim was to say that I don't go wild every second week about something new. Please come to my place I think I am the last one on RGO who owns esoteric gear. Most of my gear is down to earth....
Only thing I would love to have is the M7 YUMMY....
|
|