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Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2020 18:06:34 GMT -6
. since I found the best preamp match which smoothed out the top end thing. Wait, wait, wait!!! I thought the top of the 184 didn't need smoothing out.....
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Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2020 18:11:12 GMT -6
You’d think the classic mics would always beat them out A/B, but they rarely will. Have you done a lot of shootouts of classic vs. modern clones? I usually listen to every single one I can find, mostly for my own training. I don’t always post about it though. I (almost) always pick the vintage one as my fav, then read (im talking on YouTube/other sites) the overwhelming comments where nobody hears a difference, and they mostly all choose the one that’s got more sizzle. I’m not sure what’s going on, but I’m guessing it’s big lows from ported speakers or undefined highs from cheap self powered amps (and heavy DSP?)? I use my phone speaker though for almost all of them. It takes the low masking out of the equation. Vintage usually sounds “ok” at worst, new neumann usually sound bright and extended in a well done way. Clones often have an unfamiliar non-musical thing going on, some are pretty good though, so I shouldn’t generalize. Lately they’ve gotten better. Then I might switch to headphones to check lows. Once my ears get bombarded with lows, that’s when it can get confusing for me and my preferences can suddenly second guess my phone speaker impressions. I also always try to do A-up/B-down, B-up/A-down... not simply A/B, I try to make each louder than the other. Then I have to try to trick my brain into deciding the louder one is better. Usually one will simply feel better louder than the other one will. (Ps- I listened to that shootout and the 84 sounded good to me, interesting in the midrange.. but it could have had better placement. You can hear a weird resonance from one of the open strings. Whenever anyone ever hears that, on acoustic or amp, immediately stop and move the mic. Moving the mic just an inch or two will fix it. Must be some weird combining of wavs to make a resonant peak? Or just too focused on a string?)
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Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2020 19:34:37 GMT -6
Have you done a lot of shootouts of classic vs. modern clones? I usually listen to every single one I can find, mostly for my own training. I don’t always post about it though. I (almost) always pick the vintage one as my fav, then read (im talking on YouTube/other sites) the overwhelming comments where nobody hears a difference, and they mostly all choose the one that’s got more sizzle. I’m not sure what’s going on, but I’m guessing it’s big lows from ported speakers or undefined highs from cheap self powered amps (and heavy DSP?)? I use my phone speaker though for almost all of them. It takes the low masking out of the equation. Vintage usually sounds “ok” at worst, new neumann usually sound bright and extended in a well done way. Clones often have an unfamiliar non-musical thing going on, some are pretty good though, so I shouldn’t generalize. Lately they’ve gotten better. Then I might switch to headphones to check lows. Once my ears get bombarded with lows, that’s when it can get confusing for me and my preferences can suddenly second guess my phone speaker impressions. I also always try to do A-up/B-down, B-up/A-down... not simply A/B, I try to make each louder than the other. Then I have to try to trick my brain into deciding the louder one is better. Usually one will simply feel better louder than the other one will. (Ps- I listened to that shootout and the 84 sounded good to me, interesting in the midrange.. but it could have had better placement. You can hear a weird resonance from one of the open strings. Whenever anyone ever hears that, on acoustic or amp, immediately stop and move the mic. Moving the mic just an inch or two will fix it. Must be some weird combining of wavs to make a resonant peak? Or just too focused on a string?) I don't listen to shootouts to make these decisions. I don't listen to youtube videos. I listen in the studio on high end studio monitors with the mics in front of me - controlling the parameters (distance from instrument/voice, the source itself, mic pre, gain, etc.) as I see fit. Preferably with mics I own and/or have used for quite some time as first impressions can be fleeting... I'm not sure how you can say that "You’d think the classic mics would always beat them out A/B, but they rarely will" when judging on a phone or headphones?? Maybe I'm just old school.... There are a few modded mics that approach the classics very well. There are a few modern "stock" mics like the Heiserman H47T that compete on par, albeit slightly different (as all mics are). But the vintage mics always seem to have "something special". I hear it in the extreme top end (something an iPhone or Laptop will not reveal), and it hear it in the way the saturation starts when you begin to push the mic beyond it's comfort zone. I find your comment about the classics (I presume vintage mics?) rarely beating out the modern mics to go completely against my personal experience. Believe me, we ALL wish it wasn't so..... I have a lot of vintage mics, and quite a few modern ones. The one thing about the vintage ones is a startling open-ness way up top that is beautiful without being harsh and spitty like so many modern contenders that yields a beautiful transparency and "alive"-ness. Along with the aforementioned saturation when driven. Anyway, my $0.02....
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Post by Guitar on Aug 29, 2020 19:43:45 GMT -6
Yeah, you lost me a little there with the phone speaker thing. That is just about the worst possible playback system there is.
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Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2020 20:08:50 GMT -6
Ahh.. so that’s probably what’s going on. Maybe better way to explain; Phone speaker sounds like garbage, the classic mics usually sound less crappy. Same for all the gear/plugins, it’s really easy to hear the less crappier version using the phone. 😂
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Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2020 20:48:53 GMT -6
I think I wrote a bad sentence re: “always win”. What I was trying to say would have maybe been better said.. I’ve seen the real gear lose in public opinion on the Internet, many times. And I swear everyone gets it wrong so often. When I hear it, seems very often obvious which is which, but mostly ...on my phone! Full range though, it can get trickier. Because the whole spectrum is at play, and instead of hearing how say 8k sounds very different, we might hear the bigger difference/sameness around 50-200hz. In the end 8k will matter way more IME, only really noticed during final mixing and mastering. Kind of related.. I’m a tape fanatic, lol..., so yeah a lot of people think tape sounds a certain way that is easy to identify. And it’s not easy! Tape can sound lush and full, or it can be raspy and crunchy, totally clear or more commonly noisy and hissy, big low bump or high passed with no sub lows. So yeah I’ve been trying to figure out what I love about it and why my best friend does not hear it at all.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 30, 2020 1:37:15 GMT -6
BTW fellas my original question has been more than answerd. Mic pres can have a big influence in the equation...
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 30, 2020 2:02:38 GMT -6
Changing input impedance on a typical transformer balanced is not so difficult. Usually it’s set by a load resistor. Easy to make switchable. I’m not sure how much demand there is for something like that though. Every old transformer coupled pre has a range of possible input impedances. Everyone who wants me to rack something for them wants them all available, until they hear the cost. I've never had anyone go through with it. I never do it to anything of my own. I have a couple things that came with 50/200 switches, and that's handy with 50 ohm Western Electric and Altec mics. Handy to switch the crappy transformer in a Shure 300 ribbon to 50 out and let the preamp do most of the work. I love bringing up the GS thread where someone posted blind samples of KM84 and KM184. Most folks (even some *big names* who boasted they could pick the KM84 out of any lineup were SURE they picked the KM84) unknowingly picked the KM184 as their favorite before the OP revealed that most liked the KM184 better. Then it was pages and pages of folks backtracking, deleting their posts and making excuses. I like bringing it up because it's a great example of how tribal audio production and music are and should serve as a lesson in how we should keep our heads when those around us are just looking to validate their own choices by denigrating other's choices. BTW I love my KM184s. I don't see the need to seek the Holy Grail of km84's at this point. It seems about as simple as whether you need a brighter mic or not. That was the primary user request (diffuse field use) leading to the EQ change. Pop recording people get caught up in whether or not they like a transformer coupled signature in a mic, not much of anyone else does. Ya know, couple a transformerless mic to a transformer pre, if you have to. A different issue. The 'superior' off axis response is also regularly referred to, yet how many claiming it have put other high quality mics up for that particular comparison? Scheops MK4 and Sennheiser MKH40 are no slouches in that department. One thing that really raises a question around that claim is applying it to both KM84 and KM86, which can't possibly have identical cardioid off axis patterns with respect to frequency. They may both sound good, but that's separate from any analysis of well behaved cardioid patterns. Oktava MK-012 may be cool for some things, but man, every time I hook mine up, I marvel at the uncontrolled subsonic low end, ANY capsule across multiple sets. Most shockmount-needin' mic ever. Big box of crayons out there to play with! To me the whole 84/184 thing is about two things - "presence peaks" and off-axis response. The 184 lacks the off-axis response and has presence peaks that I DO NOT want, since I can do my own EQ, thank you very much Mr. Not Neumann.
If you like the 184's presence peak, by all means, go for it. Not for me.
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2020 6:06:25 GMT -6
Typical GS Freak Show... I love the 184 and now even more ... since I found the best preamp match which smoothed out the top end thing.
Please report your findings to the rest of the class.
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2020 6:34:06 GMT -6
To me the whole 84/184 thing is about two things - "presence peaks" and off-axis response. The 184 lacks the off-axis response anf has presence peaks that I DO NOT want, since I can do my own EQ, thank you very much Mr. Not Neumann. If you like the 184's presence peak, by all means, go for it. Not for me. It always comes down to this. 1. The forgiving and idiot-proof nature of the KM84 off-axis 2. The natural frequency response.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 30, 2020 17:54:40 GMT -6
Typical GS Freak Show... I love the 184 and now even more ... since I found the best preamp match which smoothed out the top end thing.
Please report your findings to the rest of the class. Go to the first post...
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2020 18:13:03 GMT -6
Please report your findings to the rest of the class. Go to the first post...
Fair play.
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