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Post by mrholmes on Aug 23, 2020 16:00:56 GMT -6
It is somewhat strange but I think the KM184 and the preamps in the DELTA200 are a dream team. It sounds clean big wide and open without the typical 184 HF shift ...
Is that possible that preamp and mic build a dream team? Its like an addiction in a few days... goes like nooooo back to the Delta mic-preamp...
Cheers
Holmes....
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 23, 2020 18:22:37 GMT -6
Hey - if it sounds good to you, go for it...
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Post by notneeson on Aug 23, 2020 19:21:41 GMT -6
Yes, seize on the inspiration!
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Post by drumsound on Aug 23, 2020 19:25:57 GMT -6
If it sounds right it is right.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2020 19:43:18 GMT -6
This is the problem with the audio world, we are so dispositioned to follow what everybody else uses like sheep. The real seasoned pros always have a couple of combinations that work for them most don’t know. So run with it, declare your not a recording sheep.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 23, 2020 20:18:53 GMT -6
This is the problem with the audio world, we are so dispositioned to follow what everybody else uses like sheep. The real seasoned pros always have a couple of combinations that work for them most don’t know. So run with it, declare your not a recording sheep. My question aimed more for technical reasons...
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Post by Ward on Aug 23, 2020 21:40:32 GMT -6
This is the problem with the audio world, we are so dispositioned to follow what everybody else uses like sheep. The real seasoned pros always have a couple of combinations that work for them most don’t know. So run with it, declare your not a recording sheep. My question aimed more for technical reasons... Not nearly enough fuss is made about preamp input impedences and how it affects microphones. (Just one small part of the mystery of pairing)
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Post by yotonic on Aug 23, 2020 22:11:24 GMT -6
It's your imagination.. oooooh.....ahhhh. (it starts at 2:19)
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Post by Guitar on Aug 24, 2020 6:48:13 GMT -6
This is the problem with the audio world, we are so dispositioned to follow what everybody else uses like sheep. The real seasoned pros always have a couple of combinations that work for them most don’t know. So run with it, declare your not a recording sheep. Kaboom, just blew up the thread with that one
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 24, 2020 9:54:53 GMT -6
My question aimed more for technical reasons... Not nearly enough fuss is made about preamp input impedences and how it affects microphones. (Just one small part of the mystery of pairing) And is there a theory which works best together? Meaning high vs low impedance. High High Low High High Low Low Low..... www.soundonsound.com/reviews/magneto-audio-labs-variohm
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Post by Michael O. on Aug 24, 2020 12:39:51 GMT -6
Not nearly enough fuss is made about preamp input impedences and how it affects microphones. (Just one small part of the mystery of pairing) And is there a theory which works best together? Meaning high vs low impedance. High High Low High High Low Low Low..... www.soundonsound.com/reviews/magneto-audio-labs-variohmVery generally microphones work by bridging rather than matching impedance. In other words, you want the microphone’s impedance (the source impedance) to be significantly lower than the preamp input’s impedance (the load impedance). The exception to this would be some very early mics, in particular early RCA ribbon mics, though I’m sure there were many others before impedances became more standardized. How this plays out in practice is, in my experience, much more nuanced than my technical oversimplification can express, and is something worth playing around with. For instance, one can hear a fairly obvious change in signal level and frequency response when flicking the impedance switch (that I’d guess sets the transformer to be wired in either series or parallel) included on most 1073’s and their clones, and that change is even more obvious with a mic that’s more sensitive to impedance loading (e.g. a dynamic mic, and especially a ribbon mic). Different mics can have different output impedances, as different preamps likewise can have different input impedances, so it’s worth it to experiment, because the effects are generally dependent upon which particular pieces of gear are being interfaced.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 13:00:43 GMT -6
If it sounds good, it is good, unless the client is pissed
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 24, 2020 13:52:57 GMT -6
This is often accomplished by changing the use / configuration of the windings on the input transformer, which changes the load reflected to the mic - but also changes the source impedance seen by the amp, which can change noise performance. This will also change the level presented to the amp as you note. To really separate the tone difference, you gotta make some careful matching of levels.
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Post by Michael O. on Aug 24, 2020 15:05:09 GMT -6
This is often accomplished by changing the use / configuration of the windings on the input transformer, which changes the load reflected to the mic - but also changes the source impedance seen by the amp, which can change noise performance. This will also change the level presented to the amp as you note. To really separate the tone difference, you gotta make some careful matching of levels. Exactly- I worded it awkwardly, but I meant to express that in the case of the 1073 the windings of the input transformer are, I believe, wired either in series or parallel depending on the position of the switch on the back (“lo/hi” iirc), and that’s what causes the preamp to reflect a different impedance to the mic, in addition to the commensurate difference in ac voltage step up before the first amplification stage.
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Post by gwlee7 on Aug 24, 2020 18:25:45 GMT -6
This thread is a perfect example of why I am glad I found this place. No one has shit all over mrholmes for being excited about gear that makes him want to get creative.
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Post by thirdeye on Aug 24, 2020 20:21:06 GMT -6
The rated impedance of the KM184 is 50 ohms. The rated load impedance of the KM184 is 1k ohms. The input impedance of the Soundcraft Delta preamp is >2k ohms.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 24, 2020 22:37:07 GMT -6
Do your mikes have transformers? if so, perhaps some of the magic is that complimenting the Soundcraft pre circuit which often had no transformer installed ( a simple drop in mod printed on its through hole pcb).
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 25, 2020 8:17:12 GMT -6
Sometimes we must simply embrace the WOW!
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 25, 2020 11:15:39 GMT -6
The rated impedance of the KM184 is 50 ohms. The rated load impedance of the KM184 is 1k ohms. The input impedance of the Soundcraft Delta preamp is >2k ohms.
Yes Sir... I did this research too yesterday and it's not subtle at all. The 184 sounds smooth and wide warm and open seeing 2 K.
The Neve 1073 clone I have is 300 or 1.3K.
Now I ask myself if it would change the KM184 even more to the mellow tone when it sees even greater impedance?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 25, 2020 11:55:55 GMT -6
The rated impedance of the KM184 is 50 ohms. The rated load impedance of the KM184 is 1k ohms. The input impedance of the Soundcraft Delta preamp is >2k ohms.
Yes Sir... I did this research too yesterday and it's not subtle at all. The 184 sounds smooth and wide warm and open seeing 2 K.
The Neve 1073 clone I have is 300 or 1.3K.
Now I ask myself if it would change the KM184 even more to the mellow tone when it sees even greater impedance?
The problem is how o you isolate the effect of just the change in load?
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 25, 2020 12:25:55 GMT -6
Yes Sir... I did this research too yesterday and it's not subtle at all. The 184 sounds smooth and wide warm and open seeing 2 K.
The Neve 1073 clone I have is 300 or 1.3K.
Now I ask myself if it would change the KM184 even more to the mellow tone when it sees even greater impedance?
The problem is how o you isolate the effect of just the change in load? That's why I ask---
I don't know ... maybe it's the mic preamp design too?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 25, 2020 12:50:35 GMT -6
The problem is how o you isolate the effect of just the change in load? That's why I ask---
I don't know ... maybe it's the mic preamp design too?
It is, that’s always the problem with making claims based on one specific value/ spec.
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Post by Michael O. on Aug 25, 2020 13:10:32 GMT -6
That's why I ask---
I don't know ... maybe it's the mic preamp design too?
It is, that’s always the problem with making claims based on one specific value/ spec. Completely true; all the elements interact on a systems level, not component to component or single spec to single spec. I threw in the mic and preamp impedance info earlier just because it was being specifically asked, but I believe going down that particular avenue was a bit of a red herring, or at least doesn’t paint the whole picture. The only real objective truth in this situation and in audio engineering in general is that, ultimately, specifications aren’t what matters, and that if it sounds right it is right.
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Post by Ward on Aug 25, 2020 21:15:22 GMT -6
It sure would be nice if more preamps had the option to jack the load. Wow, that sounds bad . . . but not changing it now.
300 800 1200 2400 4800 would all be great impedances to have to choose from on premium offerings.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 26, 2020 7:46:09 GMT -6
I always liked having that feature on my UA Solo preamps. Ended up using it a lot. Can get a little tweaky, but a nice sound variation.
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