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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2020 13:47:36 GMT -6
sometimes...
I'll have to experiment some more, but I think it might be because UAD console's AUX is about 35 samples off. Doesn't seem to be OOP when I use no verb on a vocal. Maybe I'm posting this too soon. But it makes me wonder. It has driven me crazy trying to figure out what unit or cable in my chain is making things out of phase. I usually just click the polarity one way or another to make it sound right in the headphones (at least on mono sources...) Wonder if this could have been the issue all along?
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2020 15:10:08 GMT -6
sometimes... I'll have to experiment some more, but I think it might be because UAD console's AUX is about 35 samples off. Doesn't seem to be OOP when I use no verb on a vocal. Maybe I'm posting this too soon. But it makes me wonder. It has driven me crazy trying to figure out what unit or cable in my chain is making things out of phase. I usually just click the polarity one way or another to make it sound right in the headphones (at least on mono sources...) Wonder if this could have been the issue all along? Out of phase with you singing or playing something? Yeah, 35 samples is a lot to be delayed, and adding plugin latency will only double that it more. |
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Post by wiz on Jul 12, 2020 15:56:19 GMT -6
I am phase sensitive to my own voice in headphones.
I have no probs with UA’s aux
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2020 15:56:21 GMT -6
sometimes... I'll have to experiment some more, but I think it might be because UAD console's AUX is about 35 samples off. Doesn't seem to be OOP when I use no verb on a vocal. Maybe I'm posting this too soon. But it makes me wonder. It has driven me crazy trying to figure out what unit or cable in my chain is making things out of phase. I usually just click the polarity one way or another to make it sound right in the headphones (at least on mono sources...) Wonder if this could have been the issue all along? Out of phase with you singing or playing something? Yeah, 35 samples is a lot to be delayed, and adding plugin latency will only double that it more. We’ve talked about this before - it’s weird...I’m not sure how a mono signal can be “out of phase” but when I listen to my vocals through my headphones, many times they sound thin and missing body. I switch the polarity and there’s the body back. Recording the signal, there’s no change when listening either way through the monitors. I know wiz has mentioned something about what you’re hearing inside your head/bones in the ears and through the headphones might cause this. Just need to try it some more to see if no verb/aux really makes a difference. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 12, 2020 16:05:30 GMT -6
Out of phase with you singing or playing something? Yeah, 35 samples is a lot to be delayed, and adding plugin latency will only double that it more. We’ve talked about this before - it’s weird...I’m not sure how a mono signal can be “out of phase” but when I listen to my vocals through my headphones, many times they sound thin and missing body. I switch the polarity and there’s the body back. Recording the signal, there’s no change when listening either way through the monitors. I know wiz has mentioned something about what you’re hearing inside your head/bones in the ears and through the headphones might cause this. Just need to try it some more to see if no verb/aux really makes a difference. That aspect of the UA console would drive me nuts. The best thing to do put verb on an aux with the verb mix being at 100%. This way the 35 samples just becomes pre delay and your actual vocals are just monitored through the channel... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2020 16:10:13 GMT -6
We’ve talked about this before - it’s weird...I’m not sure how a mono signal can be “out of phase” but when I listen to my vocals through my headphones, many times they sound thin and missing body. I switch the polarity and there’s the body back. Recording the signal, there’s no change when listening either way through the monitors. I know wiz has mentioned something about what you’re hearing inside your head/bones in the ears and through the headphones might cause this. Just need to try it some more to see if no verb/aux really makes a difference. That aspect of the UA console would drive me nuts. The best thing to do put verb on an aux with the verb mix being at 100%. This way the 35 samples just becomes pre delay and your actual vocals are just monitored through the channel... Thought that’s what this was doing...so maybe I’m wrong. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 12, 2020 16:18:20 GMT -6
That aspect of the UA console would drive me nuts. The best thing to do put verb on an aux with the verb mix being at 100%. This way the 35 samples just becomes pre delay and your actual vocals are just monitored through the channel... Thought that’s what this was doing...so maybe I’m wrong. Hmmm I'm at a loss then, the original signal must be being mixed in somewhere to cause phasing.. Digital mixers can be trickier than analog sometimes.. P.S. it can be good to have ADC turned off for tracking single mics (vocals/guitar) because it will give you a warning when a plugin isn't zero latency... |
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2020 16:25:00 GMT -6
Out of phase with you singing or playing something? Yeah, 35 samples is a lot to be delayed, and adding plugin latency will only double that it more. We’ve talked about this before - it’s weird...I’m not sure how a mono signal can be “out of phase” but when I listen to my vocals through my headphones, many times they sound thin and missing body. I switch the polarity and there’s the body back. Recording the signal, there’s no change when listening either way through the monitors. I know wiz has mentioned something about what you’re hearing inside your head/bones in the ears and through the headphones might cause this. Just need to try it some more to see if no verb/aux really makes a difference. It's out of phase relative to what you're hearing through your head. We all hear ourselves, but our brains ignore it, unless like this case, you hear the difference between two of you, then it's not going to be ignored. Phase is the time and polarity relationship between two copies of the same signal. It doesn't have to be stereo at all. If one of those signals is moved in time, then you can have phase nulling at certain frequencies, especially low frequencies since they have the longest time periods. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 12, 2020 17:34:40 GMT -6
We’ve talked about this before - it’s weird...I’m not sure how a mono signal can be “out of phase” but when I listen to my vocals through my headphones, many times they sound thin and missing body. I switch the polarity and there’s the body back. Recording the signal, there’s no change when listening either way through the monitors. I know wiz has mentioned something about what you’re hearing inside your head/bones in the ears and through the headphones might cause this. Just need to try it some more to see if no verb/aux really makes a difference. It's out of phase relative to what you're hearing through your head. We all hear ourselves, but our brains ignore it, unless like this case, you hear the difference between two of you, then it's not going to be ignored. Phase is the time and polarity relationship between two copies of the same signal. It doesn't have to be stereo at all. If one of those signals is moved in time, then you can have phase nulling at certain frequencies, especially low frequencies since they have the longest time periods. ADC "might" be adding enough delay compensation to cause an issue between your head and your ear/headphone mix?? |
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Post by wiz on Jul 12, 2020 18:25:24 GMT -6
Another way to hear it is to out the microphone in figure 8 and put your cans on talk into one side of the mic then the other.....one is always thinne r to my ear
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2020 18:35:36 GMT -6
It's out of phase relative to what you're hearing through your head. We all hear ourselves, but our brains ignore it, unless like this case, you hear the difference between two of you, then it's not going to be ignored. Phase is the time and polarity relationship between two copies of the same signal. It doesn't have to be stereo at all. If one of those signals is moved in time, then you can have phase nulling at certain frequencies, especially low frequencies since they have the longest time periods. ADC "might" be adding enough delay compensation to cause an issue between your head and your ear/headphone mix?? The opposite, the software is not compensating most likely. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2020 20:00:29 GMT -6
Shouldn’t be any ADC if it’s coming back directly from the Apollo and not going through the software. Think my initial thought is wrong, though. Probably just what Svart is saying. My hearback system is adat. That could be adding latency, right? But enough that it could cause polarity/phase issues in what I’m hearing?
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Post by ragan on Jul 12, 2020 20:06:46 GMT -6
Shouldn’t be any ADC if it’s coming back directly from the Apollo and not going through the software. Think my initial thought is wrong, though. Probably just what Svart is saying. My hearback system is adat. That could be adding latency, right? But enough that it could cause polarity/phase issues in what I’m hearing? There’ll be both ADC and DAC no matter what. Your mic is analog and your headphones are analog and you’ve got a software mixer (UA Console) between the two. As far as the external hearback system, when the phasing issue is happening, compare the ADAT hearback to the Apollo headphone outs? I bet it's what Chris was saying too. Moving signals around in time causes interference, constructive or destructive at various frequencies. The "thin" sound you hear is probably just destructive interference in the low mids or whatever. Attenuating the meat of the sound. Polarity switches just invert, so they're not really 'fixing' the phase/interference issue, but usually one or other of the interferences sounds better to us. |
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2020 21:00:41 GMT -6
Shouldn’t be any ADC if it’s coming back directly from the Apollo and not going through the software. Think my initial thought is wrong, though. Probably just what Svart is saying. My hearback system is adat. That could be adding latency, right? But enough that it could cause polarity/phase issues in what I’m hearing? There’ll be both ADC and DAC no matter what. Your mic is analog and your headphones are analog and you’ve got a software mixer (UA Console) between the two. As far as the external hearback system, when the phasing issue is happening, compare the ADAT hearback to the Apollo headphone outs? I bet it's what Chris was saying too. Moving signals around in time causes interference, constructive or destructive at various frequencies. The "thin" sound you hear is probably just destructive interference in the low mids or whatever. Attenuating the meat of the sound. Polarity switches just invert, so they're not really 'fixing' the phase/interference issue, but usually one or other of the interferences sounds better to us. Adat is a time-sliced and biphase encoded stream similar to a mix between TDM and AES. It'll have to be buffered before being encoded, which is what might cause some extra latency added to the driver latency. |
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Post by schmalzy on Jul 13, 2020 0:24:10 GMT -6
This headphones/vocals phase cancellation thing is real, for sure.
I've had people experience it both in a studio environment and in a live sound situation. "My voice sounds...weird." Flip the polarity on the send. It seems like it happens a little more often with in-ears rather than headphones but who knows if that's coincidence or not.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 13, 2020 5:13:22 GMT -6
Hmm, always with the same mike (s) ?
Any possibility one of the mikes is wired out of phase: it happens.
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Post by Ward on Jul 13, 2020 8:07:43 GMT -6
Hmm, always with the same mike (s) ? Any possibility one of the mikes is wired out of phase: it happens. Always, always, always, do the sum to mono test! |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 14, 2020 3:14:41 GMT -6
This is why I always use a Analog headphone system.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 14, 2020 5:55:52 GMT -6
I have to track with my Apollo through the cue mix and route my protools to one of the virtual channels to avoid this. That allows me to hear the vocal in real time. If you listen to the “mix” you are hearing the playback after it hits protools and returns. I kept getting pitchy recordings and couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t hear myself. It’s the same reason I can’t use the plugins going in through console Or unison preamps. It gets phasey and I cannot hear myself. Frankly, it’s one of the reasons I’ve debated abandoning the Apollo.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2020 9:34:20 GMT -6
I have to track with my Apollo through the cue mix and route my protools to one of the virtual channels to avoid this. That allows me to hear the vocal in real time. If you listen to the “mix” you are hearing the playback after it hits protools and returns. I kept getting pitchy recordings and couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t hear myself. It’s the same reason I can’t use the plugins going in through console Or unison preamps. It gets phasey and I cannot hear myself. Frankly, it’s one of the reasons I’ve debated abandoning the Apollo. I'm not talking about input monitoring. I'm talking about hearing the vocal directly from the Apollo. Well, I guess routed out of the Apollo ADAT into the Hearback system. I might switch to analog out to see if it's better. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 14, 2020 11:52:46 GMT -6
ah.
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