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Post by wiz on May 31, 2020 17:14:27 GMT -6
If we could limit the discussion, to people who are actually doing this themselves, rather than generic advice, that would be greatly appreciated.
I have seen my sales dwindle over the years, to a near standstill.
What strategies have you successfully implemented, regards selling your music online?
Are you actually generating income? What sort of income, are you covering your costs of making the product?
I have gotten to the point of where I do everything myself. I mean EVERYTHING.
My latest single release a week ago, has sold a whopping 3 copies.
They were direct sales from my website.. where I posted the full length of the song available for preview. Its for sale for 1.99 AUD, with the option to pay whatever you want above that.
2 people paid 4.99 and 1 paid 1.99.
I then (after talking to a friend who had just done the following) Spent $27.50 on Facebook Boosting the post about the tune, first of all to Europe, for a couple of days, and then to England specifically.
The targeted audience, was male and female 35-65 who had an interest in Country Music, and Mark Knopfler (as I thought the guitar playing I had down was close to that style of music and there was a chance if you liked that you would like my song).
It still has a couple of days to go, and I might switch the audience to North America for the last couple of days, though with the troubles there might not be the best idea.
the $27.50 bought me 3400 people reached. 495 engagements (whatever that is). 12 clicks on the link that plays the song. 10 clicks on my photo. and 2 comments.
No sales.
I also got a few page likes.
So summarise.
$27.50 bought me infront of 3400 people. 500 of which did something. 12 went to the song. 10 clicked on my photo. No one bought the song.
So obviously its unsustainable. Even though the song has cost me nothing to produce.
Now I think audience targeting is probably the key. Getting the song infront of people who are willing to buy it.
How is everyone managing this stuff.
what sort of stats are you seeing against your investment?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 31, 2020 20:09:23 GMT -6
Since people get everything they want for a $10 streaming subscription, they don't understand why anyone would pay for music. Streaming should simply give artists a proper percentage for using their work. Basically, we're fucked.
Your album cost you the time to write it, record it, engineer it, mix it, master it and post it. That's a lot and we're not even mentioning the years it took to gain the skills to do that.
We simply can't rely of music sales anymore. the only way out is through publishing, and that's a fairly dead end itself, unless you're writing hit tunes for pop stars or movie soundtracks.
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Post by Vincent R. on May 31, 2020 22:27:17 GMT -6
I’m following this, because I am curious. I’ve never had much luck selling my music online. Luckily I’m a genre that does well at selling albums after concerts. Martin, unfortunately you make a good point.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 1, 2020 0:17:10 GMT -6
I'll be curious to follow this as well.
But agree with Martin. Market share of people willing to purchase a digital file is very small. Most are on streaming services. Even I am am paying for Spotify. The down side is of course, you as an artist don't really get paid anything from spotify or other streaming services unless you're getting millions of hits for it to be really sustainable.
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Post by theshea on Jun 1, 2020 0:55:31 GMT -6
I tried facebook ads once for a single and had more or less the same result as you. Selfpromoting does get you knowhere. You would have to be posting like 4 hours a day everywhere and have the right contacts ... and in the end you would have to be promoting one of those boring beats and a 30 seconds tic toc video - how sad. OUR (real music) target is to be find at concerts. I don‘t play live anymore (band falling apart, family, work, life ...) and so i am reduced to having a one-man-project like you doing everything to keep cost down. I have a record deal with a small indie label but even so the promowork from them does not do much. It sells a few vinyl records, downloads are very very few. To me the only solution to this would be to do it the old way: playing live as much as you can, build a fanbase and than maybemaybe if the songs are reallyreally good sell a few more records to those fans ... in a few years after building up the fanbase. Nothing has changed ... I think the ones that can earn from music are investing quiet a lot more money than just 30€ for ads and promo.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 1, 2020 9:54:12 GMT -6
Those numbers actually look pretty decent. the key is really narrowing down your audience. I'm in the early stages of doing something similar so this is very interesting to me.
One thought, maybe instead of trying to sell your single/album you point the ad to your song on Spotify and have people save/follow it. Or try selling a different product like merch (shirts, artwork, etc). IME people are more likely to buy merch than they are music.
Or, try changing the pitch. Maybe work on creating a compelling story (your story), and ask people to "donate" to support the "cause" (in this case the cause would be you making music), similar to how Patreon works, and they get the single/album for "free" with a donation.
I'm just brainstorming here. These are all ideas I'm working on. I'm weeks away from a serious social media campaign for my business (got derailed by covid) and months away from a social media push for some original music I'm working on. I'll let you know what works and doesn't for me.
Best of luck
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2020 10:11:12 GMT -6
Donating's a good idea, but it can wear thin on people if you're not careful.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2020 10:18:43 GMT -6
Facebook is a scam, in my opinion, I wouldn't give them a penny.
I have, I think, 6 albums for sale on Bandcamp. To date, talking all time earnings, for several years, I have maybe made about $75 total. Most of that is from close friends or people I know really well who just want to support me.
My strategy on this topic is to think about "what would I do as a fan?" Do I buy digital downloads? Almost never. Do I like seeing Facebook ads? No I think they're kind of corny.
If I wanted to be a "good citizen" maybe I would buy my friends' music on bandcamp, to sort of support them the same way a handful of them have "supported" me. I certainly pay attention when my cohorts put out releases.
Things I pay for, really, are limited to vinyl albums of things I really love. Digital should be assumed, basically, to have a zero value in 2020. I might buy the odd CD here and there too. But fewer and fewer consumers use CD's these days. I might buy a cassette tape too, but they are literally trash and so I don't buy a lot of them. I wish people would stick to CD's and vinyl at the lower rungs of the popular ladder.
I don't really want my music on streaming services. Those are exploitative of our passion and profit the wrong people. Bandcamp is closer to the "good guy" in this field.
I do support YouTube, just because I love watching other people, and uploading my own stuff once in a while. To make any kind of money on YouTube you have to have tens of thousands of views, which I am personally nowhere close to. For whatever reason, this service is more valuable to me than the audio streaming services.
But you have to think of who gets the money and who doesn't. Enough people are viewing YouTube that you can sort of think of it as "reaching" people even though it's not profitable for most people. People like to "look at stuff." It seems to have shifted that way, and away from playing albums. As far as I can tell. I do better with videos, compared to my recordings, even though it's a marginal difference. People seem more interested. I think video is up and audio is down is what I'm saying. It's a whole other skill set though.
My strategy with album release is direct messaging everyone I know that I think would be interested. Last one I did about a year and a half ago, I really did get a response, and some positive feedback. So maybe sending those 20 emails or whatever it was sort of paid off. A few people "actually listened." I think sticking to EP and Album releases is probably better than single song releases. Give people more to chew on. I have heard people say the opposite though, so it can be debated.
Do I go to shows and buy merch? I'm 37 years old and those are getting fewer and farther between. But if I had a live act on a regular schedule I would damn sure try to have CD's and maybe vinyl records.
I hope this is on topic enough, just trying to share my real experience.
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Post by drbill on Jun 1, 2020 10:25:56 GMT -6
Wiz - I think the old paradigm is dead. Selling "records", downloads or whatever is looking to the past and trying to make it work. And it's not likely to work from my perspective. Several people have suggested Patreon to me. You might want to check that out for some new ideas that point towards the future. I have not gone down these paths yet, but this year (hopefully) I will. Best of luck.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2020 10:39:38 GMT -6
Wiz - I think the old paradigm is dead. Selling "records", downloads or whatever is looking to the past and trying to make it work. And it's not likely to work from my perspective. Several people have suggested Patreon to me. You might want to check that out for some new ideas that point towards the future. I have not gone down these paths yet, but this year (hopefully) I will. Best of luck. That's sort of how Twitch works, with streaming live video. When people follow, subscribe, etc, they pay money to the person making the video, sort of like tipping a bartender or something. I don't think that's a very good place for musicians though. A lot of music people on YouTube talk about their Patreon in their videos also. Dr. Bill you primarily work in music for picture, is that right? I'm curious to hear about that world that you live in if you have anything to dish.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 1, 2020 11:02:37 GMT -6
Pompaloose or whatever it's call is a band that helped launch patreon. They've been doing great with it. You can really do very well with that platform.
And streaming isn't the devil if its just you who is releasing it. Vulfpeck has made a killing off of their videos and streaming stuff. But they distribute it themselves so they pocket almost all of the money.
Video is key though, they promote their music videos and people LOVE video. The eyes are FAR more powerful to people than anything. If you have video with you music you'll reach WAY more people.
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Post by drbill on Jun 1, 2020 15:18:59 GMT -6
Wiz - I think the old paradigm is dead. Selling "records", downloads or whatever is looking to the past and trying to make it work. And it's not likely to work from my perspective. Several people have suggested Patreon to me. You might want to check that out for some new ideas that point towards the future. I have not gone down these paths yet, but this year (hopefully) I will. Best of luck. That's sort of how Twitch works, with streaming live video. When people follow, subscribe, etc, they pay money to the person making the video, sort of like tipping a bartender or something. I don't think that's a very good place for musicians though. A lot of music people on YouTube talk about their Patreon in their videos also. Dr. Bill you primarily work in music for picture, is that right? I'm curious to hear about that world that you live in if you have anything to dish. Yeah, about 25 years ago - mid 90's I started moving over from records to Film/TV music. I've always done records though, but my main focus became music for picture because there was more money to be made in that camp. At least there was back then. Just like the record biz, things have changed radically and thrown the business on it's proverbial head. The big paydays are long gone. The blockbusters still have great budgets, but the mid level movie budgets for music have fallen like a rock. $100k to $50k to $25k to $5k - all in. (Musicians, engineers, supplies, editors, whatever it takes to complete.) At some point along the rocky downhill road, I realized that OWNERSHIP of content is where the money was/is, and essentially "selling it" like I had was a dead in street. Big companies always want ownership of masters and publishing. Gee...wonder why.... Cause that's where the money is. It's where the money is in neighboring rights. It's where the money is in performance royalties. It's where the money is in licensing. It's where the money is!! So...I started to push against "industry standard" practices and take the road less traveled. Taking no money upfront, and keeping my creative works. That worked well for awhile....until it didn't. I have been able to survive completely of royalties for a decade, but it's looking more and more bleak for the future. Essentially - and believe me, I have quantified this and double checked percentages, stats and royalty streams with other composers - essentially "streaming" i.e. Amazon VOD, Hulu, Netflix and the myriads of new services popping up daily - essentially they pay about 4-6% of what cable TV paid in royalties. Probably less than 1% of what Network TV paid. That's obviously unsustainable. Everything in the creative arts is imploding in on itself - constricting - becoming smaller - becoming more difficult. Film music, TV music, "Records", video, it's all the same with unique yet similar roadblocks and hurdles. Unless you are big-time, have "name recognition" or are EXTREMELY lucky, you're making pennies. Or more correctly thousandths of pennies. (believe me, I'd be THRILLED to be making pennies - I'd be retired with a nice boat and beachfront property in the bahahas..... :-) ) So.....what all this requires is new thinking, new ways of monitizing, new forms of promotion, new workflows. If you're tied to old school paradigms, prepare to be moving in next to the dinosaurs. You will almost certainly become extinct. If you think outside the box, try new things, move ahead instead of fighting to move back, maybe you will have a chance. Unfortunately, only time will tell us which of us will survive. (If any) But back a few steps - my move to keep the ownership of my creative works at the expense of getting money in hand when I wrote it - that move may very well save me. At the very least, it gives me a venue to explore. I now own over 1200 of my own titles. And it's almost all at the quality level or better of the "average" release. That's a lot of creative mass to leverage. So.... Look at neighboring rights - record company keeps 50%, artist keeps 40%. Streaming (Spotify) Record company keep majority - can't remember the exact percentage, artist gets gypped. Performance royalties - publisher keeps 50%. Seeing a trend? Those who own the goods are taking a big FAT percentage. So why give your creative works away for nothing or next to nothing. It kills off the possibility of future potential. Keeping ownership means that YOU are the record company, YOU are the artist, YOU are the publisher, and YOU will be the lions share of any monies generated. Unfortunately, as wiz has noted, it also means promoting yourself. If you only have 1 EP, well, that income is going to be infinitesimally small. If you have a hundred albums with 1200 songs out there, then the payday just went up exponentially. With that in mind, I have enough material for a solid 50-75+ CD's, Digital releases or whatever you want to call them, and I create new titles virtually every day. In terms of earning potential and survival, unfortunately quantity is going to trump quality in anything but high end artist releases as it takes NUMBERS to get found and/or recognized from my research. Later this year I'm going to launch a record company comprised of mostly my own music and release a ton of music the next couple of years to the music consuming public that has not previously been available publicly - in a DECIDEDLY off beat, non artist oriented direction that I'm not really wanting to talk about yet. At least that's my plan and I hope too - God willing..... I'm not planning for super stardom, I'm not planning for mega-bucks, I'm just hoping for another diversified income stream to help support those that are currently sagging. Time will tell if it's a complete waste of time and money, or if I might be able to retire with a middle-income life someday. . At least I'll die trying with my work boots on....
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2020 15:35:59 GMT -6
Thanks for the detail. If you can be specific about how you "think outside the box" and "new ways" you've come up with that would apply to songwriters like some of the people in this thread, that would be cool to hear about.
Music got fucked, there is no question about it. Some people like us are tied to it with our very beings though. So I understand the want of something better. That seems to be going around right now, in the worldwide picture too. Any clues or strategies from your research you haven't mentioned yet?
I like the thing about owning your music, even a famous band like Radiohead or someone can benefit from that. Vulfpeck, etc. Maybe they could be examples of models to imitate on a smaller scale.
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Post by drbill on Jun 1, 2020 15:44:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the detail. If you can be specific about how you "think outside the box" and "new ways" you've come up with that would apply to songwriters like some of the people in this thread, that would be cool to hear about. At the risk of sounding obtuse, I think I've said about as much as I want to publicly at this point. Read between some of the lines of my post... . And really, it's all an exploratory mission for me. Who knows what I'll find.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 1, 2020 16:25:45 GMT -6
One thing I still find interesting is the fact that Bill is totally right in the fact every single thing has been completely restricted and choked off to death basically.
And yet..
We live in an era where more content is available than ever before with the click of a button. And some of it is just down right unbelievably good. From Big studios to the little independents. Its crazy.
And thats what technology has done, it's made it less and less of a specialized job or task. Technology has made what we do a normal thing and an accesible easy thing while also allowing more art to be created than ever before.
I'm not just talking about music either, but also video stuff.
Thats not an answer to anything, just an observation.
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Post by christopher on Jun 1, 2020 17:03:52 GMT -6
$27.50 bought me in front of 3400 people. 500 of which did something. 12 went to the song. 10 clicked on my photo. No one bought the song. Congrats on the new song! Nope I'm not making money selling music, and wouldn't try. But if I were trying you are kind of on the right track, in that you are calculating stuff. First, $27.50 is less than a trip to Kinko's to make flyers. I think you actually did pretty good getting 12 people to go to the song. If you posted flyers all over town would 12 people look you up? First you calculate your 'per person' potential sale costs ($27.50/12= $2.30). Then you can calc your conversion rate. No conversion yet, so you'll need a bigger sample size. Even if you had 1 or 2 sales, it tells you very little. You need a sample size of hundreds, better thousands, of folks to actually listen to the song and see how the numbers fall. They'll rarely ever buy the first time they hear it, but it would be nice to know that ratio. That's probably why live sales work better, there's groups of people actually listening and part of the experience. Even there I notice T-shirts seem to sell much better. Beer mugs. Socks. Everyone can stream the music now, only the truest die hard fans support with purchasing music. And really if you think about it, buying music is like buying something they already have. Streaming. (audience subconsciously: "I already own your CD.. but I like you so much that I'll buy it for no reason") Vinyl is a little better because its a different sonic experience and cooler artwork. Targeting a market is tough. The music needs to make a super deep connection in order for a purchase to happen these days. And these days, even if the deepest connection happens.. free is SO nice!!! The purchasers of music might be out there, but to really know got to increase the sample size somehow.. live on radio? vlogger interviews? Wherever you can connect with the audience.. I've aways thought touring retirement homes could be a success. Music connects with people in transition, so there's potential for strong connections there. Plus that age range paid for music their whole lives, and might not be broke.
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Post by wiz on Jun 1, 2020 19:11:44 GMT -6
I really appreciate and value the discussion and input.
The ad just finished. I am not disappointed with the outcome.
I will follow up with another.
I plan to budget a few hundred dollars doing this... to see where it takes me. Ideally I would like to get a pool of people who like my music... like it used to be 15 years ago..
I would like to do things for them, not just take their $1.99. I want to interact with them, have. them interact with me. I would love to give them the experience that they want.
I plan on asking them, and delivering.
keep the information coming
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by chessparov on Jun 1, 2020 19:12:56 GMT -6
Personally, for that Entertainment "Lottery Ticket"... I have more faith in developing a TV Show concept, vs. creating/marketing Music.
FWIW some years ago, there was an opportunity (for me!) to make relative Big Bucks, by being the Associate Producer on a new Network TV show. I had to sign a pile of NDA's BTW on this.
Long story short, at the 11th Hour, the Network Owner decided not to run it.
I'm encouraging the main person, who was the concept originator/Head Producer to rekindle things, with other Networks/Cable Stations etc... As she holds the Copywrites/Trademarks.
I also have some of my own ideas, to do my own thing too. And have an Entertainment Attorney that's a good friend, and will help wrangle a support team, assuming my Show Treatment indicates it. (He represented a successful Musical in the past FWIW)
Anyway, this kind of thing/Film & TV placement IMHO is where more of the money is at. Chris
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 1, 2020 22:54:06 GMT -6
I really appreciate and value the discussion and input. The ad just finished. I am not disappointed with the outcome. I will follow up with another. I plan to budget a few hundred dollars doing this... to see where it takes me. Ideally I would like to get a pool of people who like my music... like it used to be 15 years ago.. I would like to do things for them, not just take their $1.99. I want to interact with them, have. them interact with me. I would love to give them the experience that they want. I plan on asking them, and delivering. keep the information coming Cheers Wiz I've never done ads so I don't know if you can do this.. But can you also do it via Instagram? I see a lot of music ads via Instagram and it works. If you can ad any kind of visuals with it too that will help. Maybe even just kind of a slideshow with a bit of the track playing with it. It'll cause more people to click on it to hear more if they like it at least.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 1, 2020 23:20:56 GMT -6
I really appreciate and value the discussion and input. The ad just finished. I am not disappointed with the outcome. I will follow up with another. I plan to budget a few hundred dollars doing this... to see where it takes me. Ideally I would like to get a pool of people who like my music... like it used to be 15 years ago.. I would like to do things for them, not just take their $1.99. I want to interact with them, have. them interact with me. I would love to give them the experience that they want.
I plan on asking them, and delivering.keep the information coming Cheers Wiz With what you've described in your post above, Wiz--particularly the parts I highlighted and boldfaced--my biggest thought is that you really need to do a Patreon. It allows you to check those boxes and have people pay you for it.
Simplest way: you set up three tiers of supporters/followers/engagers/subscribers (or whatever you want to call them). Tier 1: $2/month. Tier 2: $5/month. Tier 3: $10/month. You can give unique benefits for each successive tier.
For instance, maybe you do a livestream "gig" once each month that's only available to supporters/subscribers (you might still release the recorded video to the general public at a later date on your YouTube Channel). A unique perk on top of that might be if someone is at the $10/month tier, maybe they get to request a song for the livestream gig.
Come up with other little "perks" for the different tiers, or maybe even a custom package people can purchase who aren't monthly subscribers. Solicit your subscribers: What do they most want from you? More concerts? More recorded material? A vlog about each of the songs from your last album where you talk about what inspired the song? A vlog where you do a studio tour and explain what all the little knobs on your mixer are for?
Check out a few other bands doing this kind of thing well on Patreon, and you'll come up with better ideas than I did just now.
Here are some friends of mine doing it well:
I could see you doing really well with this, Wiz.
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Post by Ward on Jun 2, 2020 11:31:00 GMT -6
So . . . who's gonna put the Genie back in the bottle?
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Post by mcirish on Jun 2, 2020 11:44:56 GMT -6
I've done many online ads, online fund raisers as well as running campaigns via Mail Chimp to draw some interest in new releases. The mailing list is crucial for me as it is made up of ONLY people I know who are interested in the music. Still, sales are not incredible by any means. We end up selling far more CDs and merch at shows than we can online. I think building a fan base is essential and then getting them to tell friends, etc. We have had considerable airplay that helped for a moment in time, but due to the cost of radio promotions, it isn't sustainable. Which brings up the real question: "Can you make a sustainable income in music?" After trying for most of my life, I'd have to say "no". I'm not a defeatist. I just see that people generally do not buy music and the streaming services give so little to the artists. Until laws change, I can't see any future in music (financially). I'm still not throwing in the towel at all. The band I am with has sold over 4000 Cds in the last 8 years. We've met a lot of great people by traveling the country. We continue to write and record and promote the music. We do this for ourselves; not in hopes of making a living doing it. I think most artists (in any field) are not able to finance their life through the art they make. So, we have to work a day job to pay bills and get to tour as often as possible to share our music. Even with what I wrote, I hate to admit it. I think the worst insult people give me is that I have a nice "hobby". "Hobby" does not define what we do, but the art we create does define us.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 2, 2020 12:07:41 GMT -6
I'm just brainstorming here...but...I think digital tipping needs to be included, and become the regular, in our business. Streaming live performances, actual live performances, your website, FB site, IG site etc should all have a clear and easy way for people to contribute to a virtual tip jar. And, we collectively need to get over our reluctance to ask people for money. Speaking for myself this is VERY hard. I detest asking people for money, hate it. But it absolutely holds me back. Yes, there is fine line between asking for money and being straight up annoying to people, but more often than naught we take any excuse to NOT do it and thus remove a potentially good revenue stream.
Here's a realistic scenario for some people: A live stream or prerecorded show that's streamed on the web, 1000 viewer's, each donating $.50 cents. That's $500 to the band/artist. That's more than a lot of bands make at normal shows. That's absolutely doable for some people.
How about a newsletter to your fan base (assuming you've already done the work to collect a meaningful amount of subscribers) that once a quarter asks people to donate so that you can continue to make music. Again, let's say you have 1000 email subscribers that donate $1 each. That's $4000 a year, which is enough to make a meaningful contribution to many artists who are used to getting paid nothing. And it can be done in a non-douche bag way.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 2, 2020 12:11:27 GMT -6
I'm just brainstorming here...but...I think digital tipping needs to be included, and become the regular, in our business. Streaming live performances, actual live performances, your website, FB site, IG site etc should all have a clear and easy way for people to contribute to a virtual tip jar. And, we collectively need to get over our reluctance to ask people for money. Speaking for myself this is VERY hard. I detest asking people for money, hate it. But it absolutely holds me back. Yes, there is fine line between asking for money and being straight up annoying to people, but more often than naught we take any excuse to NOT do it and thus remove a potentially good revenue stream. Here's a realistic scenario for some people: A live stream or prerecorded show that's streamed on the web, 1000 viewer's, each donating $.50 cents. That's $500 to the band/artist. That's more than a lot of bands make at normal shows. That's absolutely doable for some people. How about a newsletter to your fan base (assuming you've already done the work to collect a meaningful amount of subscribers) that once a quarter asks people to donate so that you can continue to make music. Again, let's say you have 1000 email subscribers that donate $1 each. That's $4000 a year, which is enough to make a meaningful contribution to many artists who are used to getting paid nothing. And it can be done in a non-douche bag way. Several of my friends did live streaming concerts during the quarantine and have online tip jars. Various services offer that like Paypal and Venmo. Also I think Patreon can be setup that way so that rather than a monthly subscription model, you just pay the artist when they create something. So every time you release a single I'd pay some amount. In fact I thought that's how Patreon works, you sign up to pay like$0.50 or $5 or $50 for every thing that artist creates and posts they get paid.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 2, 2020 12:41:12 GMT -6
Well, I suppose could nickname our common methodology of working the "day job", in order to create/promote our music... "Gurdjieff-ism" (that's a mouthful!), in line to the Mystic's method of financing his travels/followers, with various odd jobs. Like the writers for "The Smurfs" cartoons... It has funded their first love, Science Fiction writing! I think Steve Martin made the right call. Comedian first, banjo second. Even though he's world class on both! Chris
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