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Post by mrholmes on Jun 6, 2020 15:53:27 GMT -6
I think the point is that Neumann always was a company that looked forward - inventing new tools. Besides, we learned in all the other SDC threads that the Soyuz SDC sounds very similar to the KM84. Why not buying a Soyuz to have a good time...?
I've never owned a KM84 but I've used them often in the studio. People that own them claim there simply isn't a substitute unless you're talking about a Schoeps which is really a different animal. Sure, there are a lot of nice SDCs out there, but none with the reverence or value of a KM84. I don't see any reason why a company can't be forward thinking and still embrace and celebrate their classic products. Fender does it. Zildjian does it. Shure does it. And my reason for bringing up the Boss Waza pedals is that even Roland does it - and they're as stubbornly forward thinking as any company out there.
Owning or not owening the 84 wont break my songs in anyway. The 184 is good and I use it for acoustic guitars - sounds a bit more modern... but hey - not a bad mic.
On axis the Warbler 3U-Audio SDC sounded similar to the KM 84 files to my ears. Others mentoined the newer Oktava Mk 012 sounding more like KM 84. And th Soyuz 013 SDC where mentoined by very expereinced useres as KM84 like. You may go there or you invest big bucks in a used KM 84.
Its an oversaturated gear world you just have to pick your poision.
Complaining why Neumann is not selling old technology does not makes sense to me.
The show must be right in front of a decent mic. T This is where I put my energy these days.
I am happy with the 184...
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 7, 2020 0:14:38 GMT -6
I've never owned a KM84 but I've used them often in the studio. People that own them claim there simply isn't a substitute unless you're talking about a Schoeps which is really a different animal. Sure, there are a lot of nice SDCs out there, but none with the reverence or value of a KM84. I don't see any reason why a company can't be forward thinking and still embrace and celebrate their classic products. Fender does it. Zildjian does it. Shure does it. And my reason for bringing up the Boss Waza pedals is that even Roland does it - and they're as stubbornly forward thinking as any company out there.
Owning or not owening the 84 wont break my songs in anyway. The 184 is good and I use it for acoustic guitars - sounds a bit more modern... but hey - not a bad mic.
On axis the Warbler 3U-Audio SDC sounded similar to the KM 84 files to my ears. Others mentoined the newer Oktava Mk 012 sounding more like KM 84. And th Soyuz 013 SDC where mentoined by very expereinced useres as KM84 like. You may go there or you invest big bucks in a used KM 84.
Its an oversaturated gear world you just have to pick your poision.
Complaining why Neumann is not selling old technology does not makes sense to me.
The show must be right in front of a decent mic. T This is where I put my energy these days.
I am happy with the 184...
I think we're talking past each other a bit. I totally believe that you can make great records with a 184, or a Soyez etc. etc. RGO is a place to express our passions and opinions about gear. You may prefer your 184 but you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it. All I'm saying is that if Neumann showed up at the next AES conference with a surprise reissue of the KM84 they would be hailed as heroes.
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Post by Ward on Jun 7, 2020 6:52:33 GMT -6
SNIP . . . I don't see any reason why a company can't be forward thinking and still embrace and celebrate their classic products. Because the Sennheiser Kool-Aid tastes DELICIOUS!
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 7, 2020 8:44:24 GMT -6
Owning or not owening the 84 wont break my songs in anyway. The 184 is good and I use it for acoustic guitars - sounds a bit more modern... but hey - not a bad mic.
On axis the Warbler 3U-Audio SDC sounded similar to the KM 84 files to my ears. Others mentoined the newer Oktava Mk 012 sounding more like KM 84. And th Soyuz 013 SDC where mentoined by very expereinced useres as KM84 like. You may go there or you invest big bucks in a used KM 84.
Its an oversaturated gear world you just have to pick your poision.
Complaining why Neumann is not selling old technology does not makes sense to me.
The show must be right in front of a decent mic. T This is where I put my energy these days.
I am happy with the 184...
I think we're talking past each other a bit. I totally believe that you can make great records with a 184, or a Soyez etc. etc. RGO is a place to express our passions and opinions about gear. You may prefer your 184 but you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it. All I'm saying is that if Neumann showed up at the next AES conference with a surprise reissue of the KM84 they would be hailed as heroes.
The last thing I worry about not having a specific gear. Something diffrent is when I am about to invest.
In this case I ask on RGO for opinions, pros and cons, special if I do not know the gear.
To me the statement is vague: "you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it"
For me it depends on the situation, the sound vision I have in mind. To me all KM 84 files just had a more smooth bottom end, and nice silky highs.... But again this also just a statement of taste depending on which mic I pic in which situation.
I cant have all the great mics - Its work I have to do it with the gear that I own and can afford....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2020 9:23:34 GMT -6
You have to understand clamping down on the sale of 84 capsules would be almost impossible. The 80 series were utility mics in Broadcast, SR, and recording around the world. There are so many floating around, many abused that requiring a dealer to provide a valid serial number for what Neumann considers a part would be insane! The last people Neumann or any other manufacturer for that matter wants to piss off is it’s dealers. If your Neumann you also don’t want to be in a situation where your requiring your dealers to have to add code to their software for a single part # to add a serial number that is to damn easy to screw up! A pull down of Freq. for wireless mics is all to often to easily screwed up! At this point after the 47fet and U67 reissue my hunch as to why we don’t see an 84 reissue is this: the 100 series and 184 are completely designed for automated manufacturing, cheap as hell to make and thus to damn profitable to screw things up by bring back the 84. If the 84 would require being hand built like the 47fet and U67 the price Neumann has calculated might just be to high to justify considering the number of 80 series still out there and the fact that you can still pretty much rebuild one today. What might change things? One of the Chinese builders supplying an affordable body that could be used with an 80 series capsule, a decent KK84 clone and transformer. While the engineers at Neumann would rather move on from the past, they don’t run the show. If the guys in the C suite see somebody else making a decent money on a clone they will want a piece of the action. They won’t make a move though as long as they know they can’t compete with a refurb of a used 84. You make a lot of good points. I still think Neumann is missing the boat on this. They have the name, knowledge, and parts to produce the most loved SDC of all time and don't seem to understand value of that. They should look to Boss as an example--they finally bit the bullet and reproduced long discontinued pedals that were bringing in $$$ on the used market with the WAZA series. [br They also have done something over the years you have not, actual market research and calculated the true profitability of doing a re-issue. A company like Sennhiser doesn’t do anything without these. Again the problem is they would be competing against both their own KM184 and the used market, both of the recent re-issues came in at approximately 1/2 the price of a vintage example. Also consider how many 184’s they sell through MI dealers, I’ll bet from experience that at least 1/2 are sold through MI channels, confusing the MI guys with an 84 and 184 would be a major PITA, the whole 140 vs 180 was confusing enough for MI guys.
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Post by Ward on Jun 7, 2020 10:49:29 GMT -6
MAJOR SNIP . . . confusing the MI guys with an 84 and 184 would be a major PITA, the whole 140 vs 180 was confusing enough for MI guys. (fingers in ears) yah yah yah yah, I can't hear you, the 140 and 180 don't exist nyah nyah nyah. Seriously, I've completely blocked them out of my eyes, ears and brains . . . precisely for these confusing reasons.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 7, 2020 11:55:16 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2020 16:06:21 GMT -6
You make a lot of good points. I still think Neumann is missing the boat on this. They have the name, knowledge, and parts to produce the most loved SDC of all time and don't seem to understand value of that. They should look to Boss as an example--they finally bit the bullet and reproduced long discontinued pedals that were bringing in $$$ on the used market with the WAZA series.
I think the point is that Neumann always was a company that looked forward - inventing new tools. Besides, we learned in all the other SDC threads that the Soyuz SDC sounds very similar to the KM84. Why not buying a Soyuz to have a good time...?
The Soyuz, while a very good mic,. is no replacement for a KM84. It just isn't.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 7, 2020 16:33:00 GMT -6
I hear the Soyuz clips as being significantly darker and more low/low mid heavy than the Neumann mics. That was part of my decision not to "pull the trigger" on one. I could hear enough difference that they're not really the same thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2020 18:57:55 GMT -6
I think we're talking past each other a bit. I totally believe that you can make great records with a 184, or a Soyez etc. etc. RGO is a place to express our passions and opinions about gear. You may prefer your 184 but you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it. All I'm saying is that if Neumann showed up at the next AES conference with a surprise reissue of the KM84 they would be hailed as heroes.
The last thing I worry about not having a specific gear. Something diffrent is when I am about to invest.
In this case I ask on RGO for opinions, pros and cons, special if I do not know the gear.
To me the statement is vague: "you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it"
For me it depends on the situation, the sound vision I have in mind. To me all KM 84 files just had a more smooth bottom end, and nice silky highs.... But again this also just a statement of taste depending on which mic I pic in which situation.
I cant have all the great mics - Its work I have to do it with the gear that I own and can afford....
You're not getting it.
The reason that a majority of professional engineers would pick a KM84 for many things is that out of all the directional microphones available only the KM84 has the smoothm unaltered tone quality of the originbal source, regardless of directionality. The only other mics I've ever heard of that might possibly have that quality are certain Schoeps mics, which are at least as hard to come by as 84s.
It's not a "statement of taste". It's question of accuracy. If you want a sound as close as possible to the original from a directional mic you need a KM84.
A KN184 won't work because it has EQ baked in. Once a particular tonality is designed into a mic you can't get rid of it by EQ, etc, without doing something that will damage the sound in other ways. You cannot use EQ to make one mic sound like another - that's been proven more than adequately by the various companies the attempt - and fail - to create "mic sim" programs. You can't make one mic sound like another. You cannot use eq to erase the signature of a particular mic, or make that mic have the character of another.
I used to have an outlook similar to yours, but I learned.
Now when I've concluded that there's something that I really need that's a bit costly I save my money until I can get what I need. I've wasted WAY, WAY too much money chasing things that are allegedly "good enough" or "similar" to what I need. If I need it in a hurry for some reason I put it on a credit card if I don't have the cash, then pay it off on a strict schedule.
The quality of your "source" is THE MOST IMPORTANT SINGLE THING to the outcome of your recording. There are a thousand ways to screw up a well captured sound. There are ZERO ways to correct for screwing up the initial capture in the first place.
You can buy the tool you need to do the job once and use it for life (unless you need two of them.) Or you can spend many times what the real thing would have cost you over time, buying things that are supposed to be "good enough" or "almost the same as" over and over again.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 7, 2020 19:03:28 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer. Right now you're hard pressed to find a decent used KM84 for under $1300. If it's value continues to rise I still maintain that at some point there will be a tipping point and Nuemann will reexamine the issue.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 7, 2020 19:05:53 GMT -6
The last thing I worry about not having a specific gear. Something diffrent is when I am about to invest.
In this case I ask on RGO for opinions, pros and cons, special if I do not know the gear.
To me the statement is vague: "you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it"
For me it depends on the situation, the sound vision I have in mind. To me all KM 84 files just had a more smooth bottom end, and nice silky highs.... But again this also just a statement of taste depending on which mic I pic in which situation.
I cant have all the great mics - Its work I have to do it with the gear that I own and can afford....
You're not getting it.
The reason that a majority of professional engineers would pick a KM84 for many things is that out of all the directional microphones available only the KM84 has the smoothm unaltered tone quality of the originbal source, regardless of directionality. The only other mics I've ever heard of that might possibly have that quality are certain Schoeps mics, which are at least as hard to come by as 84s.
It's not a "statement of taste". It's question of accuracy. If you want a sound as close as possible to the original from a directional mic you need a KM84.
A KN184 won't work because it has EQ baked in. Once a particular tonality is designed into a mic you can't get rid of it by EQ, etc, without doing something that will damage the sound in other ways. You cannot use EQ to make one mic sound like another - that's been proven more than adequately by the various companies the attempt - and fail - to create "mic sim" programs. You can't make one mic sound like another. You cannot use eq to erase the signature of a particular mic, or make that mic have the character of another.
I used to have an outlook similar to yours, but I learned.
Now when I've concluded that there's something that I really need that's a bit costly I save my money until I can get what I need. I've wasted WAY, WAY too much money chasing things that are allegedly "good enough" or "similar" to what I need. If I need it in a hurry for some reason I put it on a credit card if I don't have the cash, then pay it off on a strict schedule.
The quality of your "source" is THE MOST IMPORTANT SINGLE THING to the outcome of your recording. There are a thousand ways to screw up a well captured sound. There are ZERO ways to correct for screwing up the initial capture in the first place.
You can buy the tool you need to do the job once and use it for life (unless you need two of them.) Or you can spend many times what the real thing would have cost you over time, buying things that are supposed to be "good enough" or "almost the same as" over and over again.
Amen. Best post in this thread.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 7, 2020 19:52:03 GMT -6
The last thing I worry about not having a specific gear. Something diffrent is when I am about to invest.
In this case I ask on RGO for opinions, pros and cons, special if I do not know the gear.
To me the statement is vague: "you can't deny that universally most engineers would pick the 84 over it, evidenced by the never ending efforts to clone it"
For me it depends on the situation, the sound vision I have in mind. To me all KM 84 files just had a more smooth bottom end, and nice silky highs.... But again this also just a statement of taste depending on which mic I pic in which situation.
I cant have all the great mics - Its work I have to do it with the gear that I own and can afford....
You're not getting it.
The reason that a majority of professional engineers would pick a KM84 for many things is that out of all the directional microphones available only the KM84 has the smoothm unaltered tone quality of the originbal source, regardless of directionality. The only other mics I've ever heard of that might possibly have that quality are certain Schoeps mics, which are at least as hard to come by as 84s.
It's not a "statement of taste". It's question of accuracy. If you want a sound as close as possible to the original from a directional mic you need a KM84.
A KN184 won't work because it has EQ baked in. Once a particular tonality is designed into a mic you can't get rid of it by EQ, etc, without doing something that will damage the sound in other ways. You cannot use EQ to make one mic sound like another - that's been proven more than adequately by the various companies the attempt - and fail - to create "mic sim" programs. You can't make one mic sound like another. You cannot use eq to erase the signature of a particular mic, or make that mic have the character of another.
I used to have an outlook similar to yours, but I learned.
Now when I've concluded that there's something that I really need that's a bit costly I save my money until I can get what I need. I've wasted WAY, WAY too much money chasing things that are allegedly "good enough" or "similar" to what I need. If I need it in a hurry for some reason I put it on a credit card if I don't have the cash, then pay it off on a strict schedule.
The quality of your "source" is THE MOST IMPORTANT SINGLE THING to the outcome of your recording. There are a thousand ways to screw up a well captured sound. There are ZERO ways to correct for screwing up the initial capture in the first place.
You can buy the tool you need to do the job once and use it for life (unless you need two of them.) Or you can spend many times what the real thing would have cost you over time, buying things that are supposed to be "good enough" or "almost the same as" over and over again.
I don't have time for this anymore. I am out.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2020 20:47:13 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer. I don’t know 99% of price is based on cost to produce as well as development. A big problem with even the most accurate reissue is that there will always be a vocal minority that says it’s not the same.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2020 21:02:45 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer. Right now you're hard pressed to find a decent used KM84 for under $1300. If it's value continues to rise I still maintain that at some point there will be a tipping point and Nuemann will reexamine the issue. Maybe but the real questions are if so : When? How much ? How many will they make? Talking to a couple of guys I’m being to wonder if the how many, may be the biggest issue. There are venues and remote guys who would buy in quantity that their other reissues haven’t seen. If it would require a lot of manual labor, they may not be able to hit those numbers at a reasonable price. I keep hearing very few human hands are used to build the 184. Now here is the thing you have to ask yourself that goes against your argument. If it can be done at a reasonable price and the demand really exists, then why hasn’t any of the top clone makers gone down this road? Think about it, if you could clone it really well at say $1500 street and your say Flea you could really build the brand and bring an entirely new client base into your fold as well as significantly increased your cash flow. So why hasn’t anybody done it? That’s always the thing just because you can build it and everybody says they want it doesn’t mean they will buy it at the price you need to charge to build it right.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2020 21:06:09 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer. Right now you're hard pressed to find a decent used KM84 for under $1300. If it's value continues to rise I still maintain that at some point there will be a tipping point and Nuemann will reexamine the issue. You buy a crappy one and a new capsule, that way you get the one expensive mechanical part brand new and you can actually match them later on. Also 83’s and 85’s(?) are useally a bit cheaper.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 7, 2020 21:47:58 GMT -6
If it would require a lot of manual labor, they may not be able to hit those numbers at a reasonable price. I keep hearing very few human hands are used to build the 184. Now here is the thing you have to ask yourself that goes against your argument. If it can be done at a reasonable price and the demand really exists, then why hasn’t any of the top clone makers gone down this road? Think about it, if you could clone it really well at say $1500 street and your say Flea you could really build the brand and bring an entirely new client base into your fold as well as significantly increased your cash flow. So why hasn’t anybody done it? That’s always the thing just because you can build it and everybody says they want it doesn’t mean they will buy it at the price you need to charge to build it right. I'd love it if some mic builders would weigh in here. Would it really require a lot of manual labor to build an 84? I'd love to hear why that would be the case. Re your question of why makers such as Flea haven't already put out a solid 84 clone--it could be that they know that Neumann may not provide them the capsules. It's one thing to sell capsules to DIY builders, but another to ship off hundreds at a time to their competitors. I realize that this whole conversation is largely hypothetical. It will be interesting to see how it shakes down in the future. If I had to guess I would think that if used KM84s go above $1500 that someone will invest in a making a DIY kit that will be able to utilize the Neumann capsule and sell the kit for a price that will shift the status quo. Then maybe Neumann will call a meeting.
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2020 5:41:31 GMT -6
If it would require a lot of manual labor, they may not be able to hit those numbers at a reasonable price. I keep hearing very few human hands are used to build the 184. Now here is the thing you have to ask yourself that goes against your argument. If it can be done at a reasonable price and the demand really exists, then why hasn’t any of the top clone makers gone down this road? Think about it, if you could clone it really well at say $1500 street and your say Flea you could really build the brand and bring an entirely new client base into your fold as well as significantly increased your cash flow. So why hasn’t anybody done it? That’s always the thing just because you can build it and everybody says they want it doesn’t mean they will buy it at the price you need to charge to build it right. I'd love it if some mic builders would weigh in here. Would it really require a lot of manual labor to build an 84? I'd love to hear why that would be the case. Re your question of why makers such as Flea haven't already put out a solid 84 clone--it could be that they know that Neumann may not provide them the capsules. It's one thing to sell capsules to DIY builders, but another to ship off hundreds at a time to their competitors. I realize that this whole conversation is largely hypothetical. It will be interesting to see how it shakes down in the future. If I had to guess I would think that if used KM84s go above $1500 that someone will invest in a making a DIY kit that will be able to utilize the Neumann capsule and sell the kit for a price that will shift the status quo. Then maybe Neumann will call a meeting. That oould be nice, but not all of them will know exactly what makes a KM84 sound so perfect OFF-AXIS as well as on-axis. And there are always secrets. Charlie and Chris at audioscape discovered all kinds of things that weren't on the schematics for MANY units they are building, in addition to finding ways to preserve sound and eliminate many noise sources. Yes, they are just that good . . . and there are definitely guys in the microphone world who know the same. But I wouldn't throw expectations on anyone. Those WTF aha moments don't always happen for everyone. Not everyone is looking. JMHO YMMV
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2020 10:34:27 GMT -6
If it would require a lot of manual labor, they may not be able to hit those numbers at a reasonable price. I keep hearing very few human hands are used to build the 184. Now here is the thing you have to ask yourself that goes against your argument. If it can be done at a reasonable price and the demand really exists, then why hasn’t any of the top clone makers gone down this road? Think about it, if you could clone it really well at say $1500 street and your say Flea you could really build the brand and bring an entirely new client base into your fold as well as significantly increased your cash flow. So why hasn’t anybody done it? That’s always the thing just because you can build it and everybody says they want it doesn’t mean they will buy it at the price you need to charge to build it right. I'd love it if some mic builders would weigh in here. Would it really require a lot of manual labor to build an 84? I'd love to hear why that would be the case. Re your question of why makers such as Flea haven't already put out a solid 84 clone--it could be that they know that Neumann may not provide them the capsules. It's one thing to sell capsules to DIY builders, but another to ship off hundreds at a time to their competitors. I realize that this whole conversation is largely hypothetical. It will be interesting to see how it shakes down in the future. If I had to guess I would think that if used KM84s go above $1500 that someone will invest in a making a DIY kit that will be able to utilize the Neumann capsule and sell the kit for a price that will shift the status quo. Then maybe Neumann will call a meeting. Neumann would not provide capsules to another builder. What Ward pointed out maybe the problem and for all we know Neumann might not be making any money on replacement 80 series capsules, they could be just supporting a loyal customer base. That’s the thing, they are still supporting a retired product, how many manufacturers wouldn’t? Sometimes you have to look at what you’ve got rather than what you want. I have brought it up a couple of times with people at Sennhiser/ Neumann and they have always changed the subject. I was hopeful after the 47fet and 67 reissue, but Um beginning to think it’s just not going to happen.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 8, 2020 11:08:09 GMT -6
If we all believe hard enough and watch those twinkling stars maybe the Neumann heads will grant our wish. Even the grinch who stole Christmas had a heart three sizes too small.
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Post by stratboy on Jun 8, 2020 12:24:58 GMT -6
Right now you're hard pressed to find a decent used KM84 for under $1300. If it's value continues to rise I still maintain that at some point there will be a tipping point and Nuemann will reexamine the issue. You buy a crappy one and a new capsule, that way you get the one expensive mechanical part brand new and you can actually match them later on. Also 83’s and 85’s(?) are useally a bit cheaper. That's the route I went. I bought an 85i for a reasonable price, then ordered an 84 capsule through B&H. It shipped today, so I will get to test it out soon.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 8, 2020 19:38:38 GMT -6
You make a lot of good points. I still think Neumann is missing the boat on this. They have the name, knowledge, and parts to produce the most loved SDC of all time and don't seem to understand value of that. They should look to Boss as an example--they finally bit the bullet and reproduced long discontinued pedals that were bringing in $$$ on the used market with the WAZA series.
I think the point is that Neumann always was a company that looked forward - inventing new tools. Besides, we learned in all the other SDC threads that the Soyuz SDC sounds very similar to the KM84. Why not buying a Soyuz to have a good time...?
Interesting you'd say that - what I got from the other threads was actually thjat the Soyuz sounds very good but really don't sound much like a KM84 at all.
And since Neumann was purchased by Sennheiser they've been a lot more about resting on their laurels and increasing their sales while cutting production costs.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 8, 2020 19:54:31 GMT -6
So ericn let's say if Neumann had a KM184 for $800 USD, and they announced a KM84 at, hmm, same price? $1,500? Just wondering how New KM184, vs Vintage KM84, vs. "Heritage" new production KM84 would look like to a manufacturer, and/or customer. I don’t know 99% of price is based on cost to produce as well as development. A big problem with even the most accurate reissue is that there will always be a vocal minority that says it’s not the same. And unfortunately much of the time they're right. Due to absence of the original engineers, lack of the original production talent, corporate insistance on bean counting, corporate insistance on adoption of automated manufacturing instead of talented hand assemblers, differences in materials, and a "modern" attention to the financial bottom line instead of the top bar of quality. Not to mention the urge to cater to "modern" tastes in audio faddism.
Given that the KM84 cap is still in production, some of these factors governing reissues may be of somewhat less importance in this case.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 8, 2020 22:18:29 GMT -6
Seems to me that the sonic success of the best LDC clones of the past 5-7 yrs has been due to having excellent capsules available, whether from Campbell, Heiserman, Bouchard, Thiersch, or others. If anyone were going to seriously clone a KM84, there would need to be some really, really great 3rd-party capsules on the market, IMO. As intimated above, I just can’t imagine Neumann would supply any one person (AKA clandestine builder) enough capsules to reliably offer a great clone mic.
Or am I missing something?
But if enough excellent 3rd-party capsules appeared, and if enough clones then appeared, and if those clones sold enough units, it’s hard to imagine Neumann wouldn’t be interested.
That’s a lot of “ifs,” though. I can’t imagine Neumann dipping their toes into that pool unless the market were PROVEN to be there for the R&D.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 8, 2020 22:42:02 GMT -6
I can’t imagine Neumann dipping their toes into that pool unless the market were PROVEN to be there for the R&D. But doesn't the market appear proven to exist? What boutique builder doesn't reference the KM84 with their SDC? How many thousands of views does RGO and the purple site get when the topic comes up? Does there really need to be market research done to prove the worth of the tried and true, one and only KM84? Imagine if Fender had stopped manufacturing the Telecaster twenty years ago, used prices skyrocketed and no one could figure out how to replicate the original. Do we think they wouldn't reissue the Tele because they preferred to be "forward looking" or because it might cost a bit more to produce? Re the 83s and 85s, a quick glance at Reverb shows them to be going for around 1K. Add in a new capsule for $550 and your not saving money.
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