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Post by stratboy on Jan 2, 2020 22:08:59 GMT -6
I own an A-designs HM-2 Nail. I really like it. I was on the A-designs site, reading the description and I read this:
“ Being able to switch from linked stereo to dual mono makes it a perfect tracking compressor as well; or, on a stereo mix, using dual mono with different settings on each side which can have the effect of making the mix sound wider. ”
Really? I’ve never thought of this. How does it work? Why does it work? Do any of you folks use it? Do ALL of you use it and I just got to the party? Please enlighten me!
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Post by Guitar on Jan 2, 2020 22:12:58 GMT -6
One of my favorite examples of this are the drums on "Nude" by Radiohead. You can hear the image panning every time the kick is struck, since it pulls off to one side, not being centered in the stereo image of the drums. Really creative use of dual mono compression.
With linked L-R compression everything is more behaved and doesn't tend to shift in the stereo field.
I've never tried this on mix bus but it's a cool idea.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 2, 2020 23:43:59 GMT -6
Not sure I'd call that "widening" a mix.
If you really want to us a compressor to widen a mix you have to do it in M/S. I like doing this. You can bring the sides up a bit overall and focus the center more. Can also give the feeling of more dynamics.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 3, 2020 0:21:49 GMT -6
I'll often use a dual mono compressor on a guitar bus. It compresses the two sides in similar but non-equal ways. Width is a perception of differences between things on the left and right sides...sooooo...to ME it feels like it gets a little wider. More accurately, it's probably just me hearing the stereo differences more making the existing width seem more noticeable rather than actual widening in the way a M/S processor or spatial widener does it.
There are guys who use dual mono on their mix bus citing the same sort of logic and observations. I don't ever really like it. It makes me feel like I'm turning my head as I'm listening to something.
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Post by sirthought on Jan 4, 2020 2:21:46 GMT -6
I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to fully comment, but I do know that on Andrew Scheps' ITB template, he makes a point of saying how most of the compressors he uses on aux buses are dual mono. I think he just said he liked the sound better than stereo, simple as that.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 4, 2020 2:35:06 GMT -6
A stereo compressor isn't a bad thing. It is more about the detector circuit.
For instance on an SSL vca compressor there are two versions. One that has a dual monitor dector and one that's is stereo summed. The dual mono version is often called "Oxford" or "turbo mode" in the diy world. This version oftern sounds better as the detector takes which ever signal is louder from the left or the right. So the compressor acts on whatever is loudest from whatever channel.
The stereo summed way sounds much different and can sometimes feel like it constricts the image and collapse's it.
So it's really more about knowing how the compressor works then a broad stroke of dual mono vs stereo.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2020 7:24:59 GMT -6
A stereo compressor isn't a bad thing. It is more about the detector circuit. For instance on an SSL vca compressor there are two versions. One that has a dual monitor dector and one that's is stereo summed. The dual mono version is often called "Oxford" or "turbo mode" in the diy world. This version oftern sounds better as the detector takes which ever signal is louder from the left or the right. So the compressor acts on whatever is loudest from whatever channel. The stereo summed way sounds much different and can sometimes feel like it constricts the image and collapse's it. So it's really more about knowing how the compressor works then a broad stroke of dual mono vs stereo. I was thinking a true dual mono compressor has two compressors and two completely separate detectors. Different from turbo/oxford or not? I haven't studied the SSL compressors yet. |
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2020 9:06:26 GMT -6
A stereo compressor isn't a bad thing. It is more about the detector circuit. For instance on an SSL vca compressor there are two versions. One that has a dual monitor dector and one that's is stereo summed. The dual mono version is often called "Oxford" or "turbo mode" in the diy world. This version oftern sounds better as the detector takes which ever signal is louder from the left or the right. So the compressor acts on whatever is loudest from whatever channel. The stereo summed way sounds much different and can sometimes feel like it constricts the image and collapse's it. So it's really more about knowing how the compressor works then a broad stroke of dual mono vs stereo. This was true of my Smart C2 as well. Even with the same settings on the left and right, the stereo image was less wide than the dual mono. |
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Post by popmann on Jan 4, 2020 12:17:10 GMT -6
The 2500's ability to tune how much it's linked is key to why I use it nearly always on the bus duties. I don't think it makes it "wider" than it is....it's that linked stereo compressors on busses narrow the image.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 4, 2020 14:51:38 GMT -6
The 2500's ability to tune how much it's linked is key to why I use it nearly always on the bus duties. I don't think it makes it "wider" than it is....it's that linked stereo compressors on busses narrow the image. Don't you find that using unlinked compression on the 2 causes things panned center to pull toward one side? |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 4, 2020 15:02:09 GMT -6
A stereo compressor isn't a bad thing. It is more about the detector circuit. For instance on an SSL vca compressor there are two versions. One that has a dual monitor dector and one that's is stereo summed. The dual mono version is often called "Oxford" or "turbo mode" in the diy world. This version oftern sounds better as the detector takes which ever signal is louder from the left or the right. So the compressor acts on whatever is loudest from whatever channel. The stereo summed way sounds much different and can sometimes feel like it constricts the image and collapse's it. So it's really more about knowing how the compressor works then a broad stroke of dual mono vs stereo. I was thinking a true dual mono compressor has two compressors and two completely separate detectors. Different from turbo/oxford or not? I haven't studied the SSL compressors yet. Yeah a dual mono compressor is just two totally seperate compressors which likely don't match that well from the get go and there are other things to keep in mind when using dual mono units. My point was just to make sure people kept an open mind on stereo compressors in general as a lot are separate detectors and behave like a dual mono just has stereo controls. So really my point was to know how your unit operates. Especially since some have controls over how the detector works like the 2500 as mentioned above. A stereo compressor isn't a bad thing. It is more about the detector circuit. For instance on an SSL vca compressor there are two versions. One that has a dual monitor dector and one that's is stereo summed. The dual mono version is often called "Oxford" or "turbo mode" in the diy world. This version oftern sounds better as the detector takes which ever signal is louder from the left or the right. So the compressor acts on whatever is loudest from whatever channel. The stereo summed way sounds much different and can sometimes feel like it constricts the image and collapse's it. So it's really more about knowing how the compressor works then a broad stroke of dual mono vs stereo. This was true of my Smart C2 as well. Even with the same settings on the left and right, the stereo image was less wide than the dual mono. not familiar with that unit but it could be summing the detector vs stereo. |
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Post by popmann on Jan 4, 2020 15:52:50 GMT -6
The 2500's ability to tune how much it's linked is key to why I use it nearly always on the bus duties. I don't think it makes it "wider" than it is....it's that linked stereo compressors on busses narrow the image. Don't you find that using unlinked compression on the 2 causes things panned center to pull toward one side? No. Maybe its my particular....style? But, nothing is louder than the vocal, bass, and kick. All dead center....and i never do much compression, in terms of DB.... And on the guitar/keys sub nothing is in the middle (usually)....so, linking them doesnt make a ton of sense. Its usually set faster to just catch little bits in the hard panned tracks so they dont do anything weird on the master. For a drum sub, is where i dial in some linking on the 2500...or just use the Harrison. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 4, 2020 16:27:34 GMT -6
Don't you find that using unlinked compression on the 2 causes things panned center to pull toward one side? No. Maybe its my particular....style? But, nothing is louder than the vocal, bass, and kick. All dead center....and i never do much compression, in terms of DB.... And on the guitar/keys sub nothing is in the middle (usually)....so, linking them doesnt make a ton of sense. Its usually set faster to just catch little bits in the hard panned tracks so they dont do anything weird on the master. For a drum sub, is where i dial in some linking on the 2500...or just use the Harrison. I'm not sure you understood my question - if the two sides aren't linked and something gets loud in one hard panned channel only, then the comp on the side that track is panned to gets compressed while the other doesn't (or as much, depending) - that should make anything panned center pull toward the uncompressed side. If linking is enabled then stuff in the middle doesn't get pulled to the side. That's the whole reason for linking channels on the 2 buss. So stuff doesn't wander from side to side seemingly at random.
I do use compression on the 2, but only very lightly. I'm using a A-Designs Nail, which has variable channel linking and also has a parallel compression option that I haven't really explored much. My other comp that sometimes sees 2-buss duties in a Daking FET III, which also has variable linking.
Also I tend to mix drums mono, so (e.g.) a heavy hit on the floor won't make everything in the middle jump to the opposite side.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 4, 2020 18:52:11 GMT -6
It’s how I do my widening on the master. I use the UAD Manley Vari-Mu in M/S and adjust to preference.
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Post by popmann on Jan 4, 2020 22:05:42 GMT -6
No. Maybe its my particular....style? But, nothing is louder than the vocal, bass, and kick. All dead center....and i never do much compression, in terms of DB.... And on the guitar/keys sub nothing is in the middle (usually)....so, linking them doesnt make a ton of sense. Its usually set faster to just catch little bits in the hard panned tracks so they dont do anything weird on the master. For a drum sub, is where i dial in some linking on the 2500...or just use the Harrison. I'm not sure you understood my question - if the two sides aren't linked and something gets loud in one hard panned channel only, then the comp on the side that track is panned to gets compressed while the other doesn't (or as much, depending) - that should make anything panned center pull toward the uncompressed side. If linking is enabled then stuff in the middle doesn't get pulled to the side. That's the whole reason for linking channels on the 2 buss. So stuff doesn't wander from side to side seemingly at random.
I do use compression on the 2, but only very lightly. I'm using a A-Designs Nail, which has variable channel linking and also has a parallel compression option that I haven't really explored much. My other comp that sometimes sees 2-buss duties in a Daking FET III, which also has variable linking.
Also I tend to mix drums mono, so (e.g.) a heavy hit on the floor won't make everything in the middle jump to the opposite side.
I understood your question. I am quite aware of the phenomenon you're discussing. I thought I explained my theory as to why it didn't functionally work out that way for me. If the kick drum is the only thing triggering the gain reduction on the master...it's in the middle. To get "wandering" you'd need something loud enough to trigger a master buss compressor way left or right--and a slow enough release to have it lower one side more and then slowly let go... I use a compressor on the master of everything I mix. Usually on the band and drum subs, too. If they were forced to be stereo detector linked, I would leave most of them off. What I use them for is subtle--and if I had to pay the cost of narrowing it for that subtle envelope change, I'd just pass. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 12:38:32 GMT -6
I notice a slight widening effect using the variable linking function on the UAD API2500 on a mix or stereo buss. It's been rare that I actually dig it though, at least with that compressor (it's the only one I've ever bothered to try using that way). To me, the center gets a little whacky on more complex content (like the whole mix, or a drum buss) and I like the suffocating nature of that plugin when it's 100% linked. I do record a lot of symmetrical stuff though, so that may play into it. Heavy music generally is doubled guitars panned hard, bass, vocals, bass drum, snare up the center, etc... If I were doing something a bit more nuanced in regard to arrangement, I'd maybe have better luck varying the amount of link going on. I also almost never use that compressor on mixbuss, but when it's appropriate, it's rad.
The routine exceptions to the rule are on overheads and guitars (usually). I use the 2500 on those for almost every mix BECAUSE of the variable link function. I find dual mono or somewhere between dual mono and full stereo can be very useful to correct cymbal imbalances that result from cymbal stand height variance and or just the frequency content of the individual cymbals. It creates a sense of widening most times. On guitars, I just wouldn't want them to compress the same way, so I usually keep the link at either dual mono or 50% linked.
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